[vishal9999]

Looking for Replacement for Jaguar 3.0L XJL.

Contenders: Mercedes S 350D (W222) or BMW 730D -Eminence - (F02)

Requirement – Daily office city use 10kms & Weekly twice Pune–Mumbai travel.
Yearly usage –25000kms.
Safety, comfort, reliability, Stable highway car considering it would be driven at 140kmph on highway between Pune-Mumbai.

Test driven both and now confused

Mercedes Benz S 350d
Pros:
Latest model-- launched in last quarter of 2014.
Looks are superb
Superb leg rest behind front passenger seat
Everyone feels it’s very luxurious
Resale would be decent

Cons:
Lacks under-thigh support
Rear Seat - Calf rest - not available on Indian models
Rear sitting very low
Rough ride quality in sports mode
Test drive vehicle brakes were vibrating at 10000kms (Speaks about build quality)
Some squeaking noises in the car
No spare wheel (Donut wheel available as a paid option)
Run Flat tires (Dealer not ready to replace with normal tubeless)
Very limited boot space (no space for luggage if donut wheel is kept in boot)
Unreliable car post warranty period.
Suspension not covered under warranty (My earlier S class had Air suspension failures)
Most other parts like engine mountings, transmission mountings, exhaust muffler mountings, other rubber mountings, pulleys, dampers, bearings, tensioners, ignition coils, etc. - not covered under warranty.
Extended warranty – 4years or 80,000kms (at 2.28lakhs)—expensive then BMW with limited coverage.
Most International features missing in Indian car
Rear audio control & Massage functions to be used through remote control -- not user friendly
Front seat –doesn’t have memory control
Not so enthusiastic reviews on net about brand -Mercedes
Cama motors incidence-- pulls me more away from brand

BMW 730D -Eminence
Pros:
Eminence model is fully loaded
No cost cuttings anywhere
Superb laptop tables in rear
Solid Build Quality
Ride quality is superb (with 4 adjustable drive modes)
Reliability would be high since it has hydraulic suspension with adjustable dampers
Superb I-drive function on rear seat (you can control any of the three screens)
Sofa like Rear seats --Under thigh support is superb
Peace of mind –Already owning a BMW 525d and at 90,000kms –not a single visit to service center apart from routine maintenance.
Dealer willing to replace run flat with Tubeless
Donut wheel with tires offered as a freebie.
Extended warranty –5 years and 1,00,000 kms – at very low cost (1.25 lakhs extra) –speaks of manufacturer trust in build quality.
Getting 20% Discount on the car value of 2015 manufactured vehicle ---due to model change soon
Already proven with less snags since it is on road for last 7 years with many updates.
Reliability of brand BMW

Cons
Understated looks
Old model subjected to be replaced in next six months
Engine is audible inside the cabin
BSI Package coverage (is super expensive considering below coverage, at 6.45lakhs for 5years & 1lakh kms.)
Engine oil service plus top-ups
Vehicle check and standard scopes
Service/replacement air filter
Service/replacement fuel filter
Service/replacement micro filter
Service/replacement spark plugs
Service/replacement brake fluid
Replacement of front/rear brake pads
Replacement of front/rear brake discs
Replacement of clutch (if necessary)
Replacement of wiper blades

Maintaining your car at regular service intervals is more economical considering it will be serviced only 10 times in that period) .All other major maintenance activities would anyhow be covered under warranty and not under BSI. Hence would not opt for BSI and instead go in for extended warranty only.(Advice needed : Am I missing something because most BHPians opt for BSI)

I think BMW 7 series is under marketed since its rear seat comfort is better in most areas then Mercedes Benz s class .I am more inclined towards BMW 730d considering all the pros and cons above, but if I take any opinion everyone suggests Mercedes Benz S class.
Guys –please Advice.

Moderator—I could not find any relevant existing thread on this discussion. If you find any relevant thread, please merge.

[Sahil]

I was in a similar dilemma but I'm glad I picked the S350CDi. some of your observations are correct however regarding the under thigh support, this can be adjusted from the controls wherein the seat extends forward from the base. I find no issues with the same but my father did feel the 7 seating is just slightly better since the seats are positioned a bit higher.
I think the warranty covers suspension too, where did you read this? Also I paid only 1 lakh or so for 4th year warranty.
Rear remotes can get annoying. However there is an iOS app that you can use to sync with rear screens which make it much easier to operate via your iPhone or iPad.
You can get the extended calf support and the entire car customised if you opt for a CBU S500 which is almost 45 lakhs more expensive.
That being said, the current 7 is just too dated and no match to the S. I think the S is the best of the lot. You can read my review in case it helps you make your mind:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...-s350-cdi.html
If you aren't fully satisfied with the S, I suggest you wait for the new 7 which is being launched in a few months. Your current XJL is perhaps better than the current 7.

[Viju]

Originally Posted by Sahil

If you aren't fully satisfied with the S, I suggest you wait for the new 7 which is being launched in a few months. Your current XJL is perhaps better than the current 7.

Totally agree with Sahil here.

Why spend a big packet of your hard-earned on something which you are not completely happy with? I am sure you can keep your XJL till the next 7 comes in, right?

[Turbanator]

I am more inclined towards BMW 730d considering all the pros and cons above, but if I take any opinion everyone suggests Mercedes Benz S class.

wow .. everything you have written matches exactly what I observed last Years before I picked 7 series.

Will Disagree to below points though

BSI Package coverage (is super expensive considering below coverage, at 6.45lakhs for 5years & 1lakh kms.)
Engine oil service plus top-ups
Vehicle check and standard scopes
Service/replacement air filter
Service/replacement fuel filter
Service/replacement micro filter
Service/replacement spark plugs
Service/replacement brake fluid
Replacement of front/rear brake pads
Replacement of front/rear brake discs
Replacement of clutch (if necessary)
Replacement of wiper blades

will try to answer

BSI Package coverage (is super expensive considering below coverage, at 6.45lakhs for 5years & 1lakh kms.)

Check for 5 Year 60 K i think there used to be an option if not choose 3 or 4 year one with 40 or 60 K , be assured you will not repent on this decision - given my personal experience with this brand on N cars ..

Other issues are automatically taken care when you opt for BSI except for Spark Plugs for which you will have to get a major engine upgrade

But should you not wish to opt for BSI , I can tell from my own usage in past 8 months or so - my car has done 24 K and being for service twice - regular service costs + wipers is less than a Lac ( wipers are indeed costly ! ) though I didn't paid a pie . My brakes are fine yet good for another 7-8 k

BSI & Extended warranties are honoured by BMW in true spirits , they changed rear glass of mine in 5th year only because of a small wear in rubber which holds this glass - just aesthetic issue but they still approved a change - where else will you find someone honouring warranty on a rubber part that too in 5th Year - so go for BSI -

Talking about Merc - sure it's a new shape but given the attitude of Mercedes Dealers - I doubt person like me can ever become there customers :(

Rear Seat height and overall comfort of 7 is definitely better than S as per my limited ride on S and if we factor idrive & Refrigerator in rear ( It actually chills ) 7 gets better . However due to absence of Glass in rear roof it can get little claustrophobic .

Try to work out Ex-Showroom price of around 80 and possibly pick another C class with an extra cash or even put little extra and pick CLS instead with 7 .

But if you can wait and budget is not a concern , how about picking new 7 in next 4 months - there are few 750 & 740 being allocated for launch around festive season as CBU just that these will be without discounts .

[ajmat]

Just back from Taiwan and enjoyed 60km in the back of a w221 and the soon to be discontinued BMW 7

Merc was serene, you could get comfortable easily and had great visibility. Ride and refinement was amazing despite driver driving quite fast

BMW - although lower, had amazing amount of space. Seats are a bit low slung. Seat squabs are shorter but there was no adjustment. Engine had a nice growl. Ride was firmer.

The BMW was no poor second but it does lack the the presence. I was quite surprised and the 5's I rode in had not much space.

A lot depends on the price differential

[androdev]

In my opinion, the soul of any S-cass is it's ride. The lazy transmission, light steering with wood inserts, air suspension, cozy interiors etc make up the secret sauce. It really shines on bad roads and stop-and-go traffic and BMW with it's stiff-everything and hyper-eager transmission is terrible in stop-and-go traffic.

BMW is built better, has solid tank-like feel, expect it to be more reliable. Sporty. Amazing on highways.

I think the decision should be made based on the above two aspects without getting into the bells and whistles.

Something to keep in mind:
S350 lacks few things in the front (memory+ventilated seats, top-end steering wheel, etc.). Even S500 doesn't have calf-support.

If you like the BMW ride, then current 7 vs new 7 is all about price and it would be very difficult to justify the new price unless you want the newest thing.

I would wait for the new 7 series launch and review my options. It will make the current 7 cheaper and force Mercedes to update s350 with those missing features.

[IshaanIan]

Haven't been in the new S-Class myself but I have had plenty of rides in the previous generation model. Been around in the 7 series as well and my opinion is that the Audi A8 outshines them both. Superb ride, good drive (not as vague as the s-class), felt really well built and honestly is my favourite of the lot any reason why it isn't in the contention?

Like a few others have mentioned, it might be worth it to wait till next year for the new 7 series as well as the new A8. Makes sense to buy such flagship cars when they are new

[vishal9999]

Originally Posted by Sahil

I was in a similar dilemma but I'm glad I picked the S350CDi. some of your observations are correct however regarding the under thigh support, this can be adjusted from the controls wherein the seat extends forward from the base. I find no issues with the same but my father did feel the 7 seating is just slightly better since the seats are positioned a bit higher.
I think the warranty covers suspension too, where did you read this? Also I paid only 1 lakh or so for 4th year warranty.
Rear remotes can get annoying. However there is an iOS app that you can use to sync with rear screens which make it much easier to operate via your iPhone or iPad.

I did try all the seat options , but the seat base movement in the rear seat of S-class has limitations and degree of recline is less than 7 series in the upward direction. Also front seat of 7 series has a proper independent calf support unlike S-class where the complete seat moves. Secondly I feel BMW seats are 12way adjustable unlike S -class where it is 8 way adjustable. Also If there are 4 people in the car ,7 series in again more comfortable since seats are positioned higher and there is enough space below front passenger seats and hence all 4 passengers are more comfortable,have more legspace. Only time I felt s class more comfortable while travelling single seat in rear with chauffer mode operated and legs stretched.
Regarding warranty--As per warranty booklet suspension is not covered, i reconfirmed the same with the dealer and asked them to give in writing, but they refused to give in writing about suspension coverage, also 4th year price was quoted by the dealer. Also Mercedes max warranty is 4 years unlike BMW which has 5 years & 1,00,000kms as an option.
I find direct controls for audio more comfortable and usable and this is the only reason of upgrading to Eminence from prestige in 7 series.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

wow .. everything you have written matches exactly what I observed last Years before I picked 7 series.

Will Disagree to below points though
will try to answer
Check for 5 Year 60 K i think there used to be an option if not choose 3 or 4 year one with 40 or 60 K , be assured you will not repent on this decision - given my personal experience with this brand on N cars ..

Other issues are automatically taken care when you opt for BSI except for Spark Plugs for which you will have to get a major engine upgrade

But should you not wish to opt for BSI , I can tell from my own usage in past 8 months or so - my car has done 24 K and being for service twice - regular service costs + wipers is less than a Lac ( wipers are indeed costly ! ) though I didn't paid a pie . My brakes are fine yet good for another 7-8 k

BSI & Extended warranties are honoured by BMW in true spirits , they changed rear glass of mine in 5th year only because of a small wear in rubber which holds this glass - just aesthetic issue but they still approved a change - where else will you find someone honouring warranty on a rubber part that too in 5th Year - so go for BSI -
Talking about Merc - sure it's a new shape but given the attitude of Mercedes Dealers - I doubt person like me can ever become there customers :(
Rear Seat height and overall comfort of 7 is definitely better than S as per my limited ride on S and if we factor idrive & Refrigerator in rear ( It actually chills ) 7 gets better . However due to absence of Glass in rear roof it can get little claustrophobic .
Try to work out Ex-Showroom price of around 80 and possibly pick another C class with an extra cash or even put little extra and pick CLS instead with 7 .
But if you can wait and budget is not a concern , how about picking new 7 in next 4 months - there are few 750 & 740 being allocated for launch around festive season as CBU just that these will be without discounts .

There are 2 Packages in BSI, Service inclusive for 5yrs and 60kms cost 1,77,000/- where only all oils and filters are covered (i.e: 6 services x Rs.28,500/service) . Second package is service inclusive plus which costs 4,03,786/- where brake pads, brake discs ,clutch & wiper blades are covered in addition to basic services of filters & oil change( i.e: 6 services x Rs.67,297/ service).
Dealer has clearly mentioned that anything other than mentioned shall be covered in warranty only and extended warranty is compulsory for BSI. I think either way same amount is been charged by BMW as otherwise what it would have been cost + 30% extra for unforeseen +interest amount loss on upfront payment done.

Originally Posted by ajmat

Just back from Taiwan and enjoyed 60km in the back of a w221 and the soon to be discontinued BMW 7
Merc was serene, you could get comfortable easily and had great visibility. Ride and refinement was amazing despite driver driving quite fast
BMW - although lower, had amazing amount of space. Seats are a bit low slung. Seat squabs are shorter but there was no adjustment. Engine had a nice growl. Ride was firmer.
The BMW was no poor second but it does lack the the presence. I was quite surprised and the 5's I rode in had not much space.
A lot depends on the price differential

I think what you sat was F02 model pre 2013 which has low slung seats and looks the same as current generation .Current model was facelifted in 2013 end with lots of features added to compensate the late launch of new model. Current model seats are actually much better then W222.I once had a opportunity to sit in rear of Rolls Royce ghost and I feel the seat movements of the current model been copied from Rolls Royce.

[Turbanator]

degree of recline is less than 7 series in the upward direction. Also front seat of 7 series has a proper independent calf support unlike S-class where the complete seat moves. Secondly I feel BMW seats are 12way adjustable unlike S -class where it is 8 way adjustable.

That's correct , we can move upper portion of rear seat in BMW as against complete seat movement of S . This is a useful adjustment specially on longer runs

Second package is service inclusive plus which costs 4,03,786/- where brake pads, brake discs ,clutch & wiper blades are covered in addition to basic services of filters & oil change( i.e: 6 services x Rs.67,297/ service).
Dealer has clearly mentioned that anything other than mentioned shall be covered in warranty only and extended warranty is compulsory for BSI

Yes BSI packs do cover the mentioned parts but I don't think calculations for benefits are going to be so easy . So a spirited drive in my 530D ensures I burn my brake pads in less than 10 K as against more than 25 K on chauffeur driven 730 D

Current model was facelifted in 2013 end with lots of features added to compensate the late launch of new model. Current model seats are actually much better then W222.I once had a opportunity to sit in rear of Rolls Royce ghost

I have only read that 7 is based on Ghost platform though there will be lot of changes but maybe basic things like seat height can indeed be same which is actually good for someone on budget . Not yet travelled on ghost yet , probably will have to travel to Hongkong / Dubai sometime to have a first hand experience


Looks you are more inclined towards BMW - my suggestions

- Try to upgrade rims to 19inch before delivery - check if showroom guys can take old one back , 18 inch are too small in my opinion .
- Do opt for BSI Plus + Warranty with eyes closed - If you have owned 525 in past - do a run on all the payments you made vs cost of BSI if you had bought , you just cant go at loss with BSI
- Try to change tyres immediately - original ones do make noise specially after around 8-10Km mark - atleast in my case .

[VSD]

I think you should go in for the 7 series as the price difference & feature list mentioned by you makes your decision that much easier. Though the car is being replaced and the new one will be coming in soon enough, you could stall your decision and wait for the new one. Many features will be kept standard across all variants and you can have more for your money in the new 7. Although going by BMW pricing, I'm not sure how they'll price their cars.

If it helps, I'm attaching the BSI price list which now crosses 10years/2L kms option.
Many options in the BSI plus, I'd recommend 5yr/60k if you drive less or 5yr/100k if you'll be driving it more often.

01 BMW SIRI Customer Pricelist Valid wef 01072014 (2).pdf

[Akshay1234]

Looks like you are more inclined towards the 7 to be honest.

If the car is going to be self driven more than once in a while, the 7 makes sense.

What is the price difference between the 730 eminence, and the s350? Seeing what kind of discounts are available on the 7, you may be able to get a 730 signature too which will add even more features.

The 7 with tubeless tires will ride a fair amount better than the one with runflats, those thuds which you can still feel on larger bumps in the 7, will disappear completely.

If you are thinking of BSI, get the service inclusive plus.

Frankly if you don't mind the new 7 coming out, pick up the present one. I'm curious as to how many lacs you are getting off on this.

[Turbanator]

I'm attaching the BSI price list which now crosses 10years/2L kms option

Yes BSI is available upto 10 Years , I am having same on my X6 but maximum extended warranty is 5 Years only .

The 7 with tubeless tires will ride a fair amount better than the one with runflats, those thuds which you can still feel on larger bumps in the 7, will disappear completely.

More than Thud or hard feel of runflats , these run Flats make more noise which become intrusive in cabin . Bumps are normally not a concern as I believe 7 has Air Suspension at rear.

[vishal9999]

Originally Posted by VSD

I think you should go in for the 7 series as the price difference & feature list mentioned by you makes your decision that much easier. Though the car is being replaced and the new one will be coming in soon enough, you could stall your decision and wait for the new one. Many features will be kept standard across all variants and you can have more for your money in the new 7. Although going by BMW pricing, I'm not sure how they'll price their cars.

If it helps, I'm attaching the BSI price list which now crosses 10years/2L kms option.
Many options in the BSI plus, I'd recommend 5yr/60k if you drive less or 5yr/100k if you'll be driving it more often.

Attachment 1401470

Wow VSD what a scoop ,you have attached a complete price list which no dealer would ever share. Infact never even heard of 10years coverage. Also dealer quoted me 20% extra on all the prices ,is this because of escalation or price list has changed in 2015.
Also you have taken me one step closer to BMW, its just gives me peace of mind to know manufactures confidence in the product by providing a comprehensive coverage. I don't know any other manufacturer in India providing 10 year coverage.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

- Try to upgrade rims to 19inch before delivery - check if showroom guys can take old one back , 18 inch are too small in my opinion .
- Do opt for BSI Plus + Warranty with eyes closed - If you have owned 525 in past - do a run on all the payments you made vs cost of BSI if you had bought , you just cant go at loss with BSI
- Try to change tyres immediately - original ones do make noise specially after around 8-10Km mark - atleast in my case .

Price quoted by dealer was 4.5lakhs as against price quoted outside of 1.3lakhs BY DAD, is there any difference as both seem O.E ,how do we ascertain strength of alloy wheel.
Secondly also thinking of changing rear exhaust to 760li dual exhaust ,any pointers where can I get this and cost involved.

[Turbanator]

Price quoted by dealer was 4.5lakhs as against price quoted outside of 1.3lakhs BY DAD

Which size / type are you upgrading to ? I changed mine with the ones from signature edition in size 19 inch with mixed tyres . Your Dealer must have added cost of tyres & rims - ask him to provide estimate in written , it will have all details - ask him to give estimate for the rims & tyres that originally come with Car as well . They should have no issue in taking back 18 inch tyres ( fast movers) as per selling prices and you should only pay difference , for Rims you will need to press little harder as they won't able to sell these fast - they do get insurance claims though, if you can manage about 50 % difference on Rims it should be fair .

Do remember to get new tyre numbers on Invoice / Insurance to retain 1 year complimentary BMW secure advance on tyres

I won't have clue to outside purchase and unless you are absolutely sure on genuineness it won't make any sense to buy from outside besides you run risk of warranty issues . I don't think you can get tyres + rims @ 1,3 lac in any case .

Won't have any information on on exhausts as well , i believe fellow member Sahil has done recently & might able to give you pointers -You will probably need to order through your BMW dealer only

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...350-cdi-4.html

[Khushrav]

If you heart says, 7 then you know the answer. But since you are currently driving a swanky pair of wheeles even now, you can wait for another 6-9 months and get your hands on a brand new 7-series.

Both these cars also offer a statement. It depends on what statement do you want to make.