[Guderian]

Originally Posted by akshay1234

I infact just read the wiki article, and though it says some stability systems limit the throttle, I have not come across one which does not. Perhaps you could point me to one specific stability system which only limits the brakes.

Yes it does depend on driving style, but even the most safe of drivers may be forced to make an emergency move. Being an ex-user you do know the Scorpio well, but I don't think any of us can confidently say VCS wouldn't have helped in that crash. VSC includes 2 things, one is a traction control which reduces wheelspin under acceleration, and the second is stability control which works when the car doesn't seem to be going where the steering is pointed.

Good that you came across the Wiki piece. There are few other write ups too one can find. Nope, can't claim to have come across or used any of them fancy ESPs at all...but yeah, needn't have used one to know about it - like lot many other things in life ! Though can check out with the Toyota tech chaps about the way the Toyota VSC works, for sure.
Sure, you may have a point there but I still think given the circumstances the topple may not have been prevented by the VSC, given that massive equilibrium shifts (going into a low area or ditch and pulling out at high speeds) can't be countered by the device. And that too on a high CoG vehicle like Scorpio. Well, if it could prevent it...good for it I'd say !

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by Guderian

Good that you came across the Wiki piece. There are few other write ups too one can find. Nope, can't claim to have come across or used any of them fancy ESPs at all...but yeah, needn't have used one to know about it - like lot many other things in life ! Though can check out with the Toyota tech chaps about the way the Toyota VSC works, for sure.
Sure, you may have a point there but I still think given the circumstances the topple may not have been prevented by the VSC, given that massive equilibrium shifts (going into a low area or ditch and pulling out at high speeds) can't be countered by the device. And that too on a high CoG vehicle like Scorpio. Well, if it could prevent it...good for it I'd say !

I'll read around. True you don't have to use it to know about it, but only after using it will you know what the feeling is of an electronic keeping you in control. Unfortunately I have pushed my cars a bit extra sometime and I felt I was in control, but ESP/VSA/DSC blah blah felt it wasn't and intervened. You can feel the throttle go dead, and the car suddenly much more in control.
Agreed VSC cannot defy the laws of physics, but it may have stopped or reduced the equilibrium shift.

[Behemoth]

This video from Toyota explains how their VSC works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ8pN...e_gdata_player

It is only in an emergency situation that one realizes their importance and having it can be a lifesaver.

Regards
Behemoth

[Guderian]

Originally Posted by Behemoth

This video from Toyota explains how their VSC works.

Hi Behemoth,
Thanks. That's a nice clip.
Well, the funny part was I was talking to a senior tech hand of a Toyota ASC who mentioned that the Classic Fortuners could be retrofitted with the VSCs if needed...I almost choked !
If one could only get them to grease the propeller shafts properly and without reminders.

Originally Posted by akshay1234

Agreed VSC cannot defy the laws of physics, but it may have stopped or reduced the equilibrium shift.

Yeah, who knows...may be !

[Guderian]

Originally Posted by Manuuj

I dont think it is possible really to compare the two brutes in terms of drive dynamics. The Range Rover is over a 100 bhp more than the Fortuner and has a completely different feel to it.

The RSC or Roll Stability Control is coupled with Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (EBD) and Emergency Brake Assist (EBA).

The Range Rover GVW is 3200 kgs to the Fortuners 2510 kgs but it feels much much lighter and nimble. On twisty hill roads it has very little body roll and covers distances at a faster rate than the Fortuner.

The steering is very light and precise also.

The Fortuner is also very precise but much heavier to steer. But all the same i have never felt the Fortuner losing grip or control any any stage in its 53,000 kms covered so far.

Both are different but capable beasts. Hope this helps.

Hi Manuuj,
Very neatly captured I'd say. Thanks.
Hmmm...somewhere I was hoping you'd say that you were considering selling off the Range Rover and buying 3 more Fortuners, thanks to your love for them - with VSC/without VSC and one AT and giving us the final answer to the conundrum of which one yaji should get !

Originally Posted by dkaile

The Classic Fortuner will not loose grip under most driving conditions. Though VSC would definitely be liked but its not a make or break thing. It would be very difficult to topple a Fortuner unlike say a Scorpio.
If you like the looks Yaji, go for it...

Hi dkaile,
Would agree with you totally as a user of the Fortuner and ex user of the Scorp. In fact if you see the early comments made by me on this thread regarding the difference/s between my old ride, the Scorp, and the Fortuner - this was one point that I had emphasised about. The feeling of a safe ride. Of course the rear portion of my old ride with its leaf spring suspension at the rear had a mind of its own - but never let me down in terms of handling even once as long as one drove safely. But yeah did feel the effects of aquaplaning couple of times on the E-Way at fairly high speeds. Did rattle me into getting very cautious. And this piece of metal didn't even have a balloon for an airbag in the front !
However even with the Fortuner I'd be very careful on a wet/slushy road. VSC no doubt would be great to have on these kind if roads. Though I have thrown it round the bends a few times to test its capabilities (as recent as the last couple of drives to Pune on the E-Way and reported here) and found it coming out tops - I wouldn't be foolhardy & treat it like a sedan. Not again at least.

After all these parliamentary debates and calling attention motions, I hope yaji doesn't dump the whole thought and get himself a mountain bike and reserve the spare change for a rented limo !

[PassionateDrive]

Couldn't have been a better timing of me watching this video. Today morning while coming from Ahmednagar to Pune, had an emergency and had to maneuver the car toward right. I should be cruising at at least 3 figure mark. The car lost control and skidded towards the left side of the road, untill it found a very rough patch down the road. I was very lucky to survive and escape without a scratch. But for few seconds, I had absolutely no control over the car, and the car could have taken me anywhere. Car got damaged, AC conked off. I think the AC pipe must have broken. Will take the car for checkup tomorrow.
Between, I regularly follow this thread. Fortuner is one vehicle that I aspire to buy. It is one amazing piece of engineering/designing.
Nice thread Guderian.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by PassionateDrive

...Today morning while coming from Ahmednagar to Pune, had an emergency and had to maneuver the car toward right. I should be cruising at at least 3 figure mark. The car lost control and skidded towards the left side of the road, untill it found a very rough patch down the road.

Are you talking about a Fortuner or an i20 ? If it's i20, it's got more to do with the soft suspension, but as you said, a VSC might have helped better! Your car is equipped with ABS?

[PassionateDrive]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

Are you talking about a Fortuner or an i20 ? If it's i20, it's got more to do with the soft suspension, but as you said, a VSC might have helped better! Your car is equipped with ABS?

i20. Car does not have ABS
Yes...it has got to do with the soft suspension. Also the culprit may be the ultra light steering wheel.

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by Guderian

Hi Behemoth,
Thanks. That's a nice clip.
Well, the funny part was I was talking to a senior tech hand of a Toyota ASC who mentioned that the Classic Fortuners could be retrofitted with the VSCs if needed...I almost choked !
If one could only get them to grease the propeller shafts properly and without reminders.

It is feasible considering all the ABS hardware is already present. A VSC controller will be needed and possibly a couple of sensors, and then some programming. Well try asking the chap how next time you see him, if he gives a similar answer to this I'll be impressed. Though there is a good chance he was talking crap.

[yaji]

Originally Posted by Guderian

After all these parliamentary debates and calling attention motions, I hope yaji doesn't dump the whole thought and get himself a mountain bike and reserve the spare change for a rented limo !

Thanks again HG for all those inputs.

As of now i have not dumped the idea of going for the Fortuner in favour of a mountain bike as a mountain bike cannot take the amount of people i intend to carry around but this debate which has been sparked off by my question is really really interesting and i got lots of info on the feature itself than i could by just reading a wiki post !

Thanks everyone else for all those inputs. Took my belief in team-bhp a notch higher for the kind of healthy debate and the wealth of knowledge that's present in here.

I have now asked the dealer sales guy whether they can retrofit the VSC in the classic model as i too overheard something similar to what HG had heard from his ASC guy ! They are supposed to get back to me and I' am keeping my fingers crossed (hope the fingers dont get knotted into themselves before they reply). Hence the wait continues.....

[Guderian]

Originally Posted by PassionateDrive

Couldn't have been a better timing of me watching this video.
Between, I regularly follow this thread. Fortuner is one vehicle that I aspire to buy. It is one amazing piece of engineering/designing.
Nice thread Guderian.

Hi PassionateDrive,
Thank you very much for the warm words of appreciation and for being around.
Extremely glad that you came out of that episode unscathed and may you have many, many miles of safe driving henceforth.
Looking forward to another Fortuner joining the ranks round these parts ! Do let us know if you need any help.

Originally Posted by akshay1234

Well try asking the chap how next time you see him, if he gives a similar answer to this I'll be impressed. Though there is a good chance he was talking crap.

Why do you think I choked ? Couple of sentences and I knew he was talking a load of crock...

Originally Posted by yaji

-Thanks again HG.

- I have now asked the dealer sales guy whether they can retrofit the VSC in the classic model as i too overheard something similar to what HG had heard from his ASC guy ! They are supposed to get back to me and I' am keeping my fingers crossed (hope the fingers dont get knotted into themselves before they reply).

Hi Yaji,
- Pleasure.

- Frankly, as far as I am concerned, there is no way I would have such a mission critical system like brakes etc toyed around with - and deploy another critical system like VSC which depends on it - outside the manufacturer's four walls. Never.
I'd turn tail and do the disappearing act if someone seriously mentioned it to me.
Or may be I am just an old stick in the mud.

[Behemoth]

Originally Posted by Guderian

Hi PassionateDrive,

- Frankly, as far as I am concerned, there is no way I would have such a mission critical system like brakes etc toyed around with - and deploy another critical system like VSC which depends on it - outside the manufacturer's four walls. Never.
I'd turn tail and do the disappearing act if someone seriously mentioned it to me.
Or may be I am just an old stick in the mud.

Hi Guderian,

I would agree with you 100% on this. Retrofitting a mission critical system like VSC to a non-VSC model is like asking a barber to deliver a baby! It's best to take these features only as a factory fitted option and never get them retrofitted. Many of the brake system components (Master/ slave cylinders), Braking system ECU, Gyro Sensors , Engine ECU programming would be different and unless each one is perfect, the system will not work as designed, and with such a system, it could have unexpected behaviour in an emergency situation. Suppose for example the programming is incorrect and the gyro sensor gives an input to prevent a spin and the brake is applied to the wrong wheel (e.g inner instead of outer wheel) - the car may even topple and crash.
Critical functions like ABS, Airbags, TCS, VSC (ESP), EDL, ASR etc should never be retrofitted and should only be taken factory fitted!

Since so many years in India, these safety features were considered Premium and offered only in higher models of cars, but now the trend is changing and manufacturers are giving much more safety features even in the lower models.

Regards,
Behemoth

[Guderian]

Originally Posted by Behemoth

Retrofitting a mission critical system like VSC to a non-VSC model is like asking a barber to deliver a baby!

OT - Incidentally the early Dentists were originally Barbers and they performed complex dental surgeries too ! Middle ages (5th to 15th Centuries) I am given to believe...

[yaji]

Originally Posted by Guderian

- Frankly, as far as I am concerned, there is no way I would have such a mission critical system like brakes etc toyed around with - and deploy another critical system like VSC which depends on it - outside the manufacturer's four walls. Never.
I'd turn tail and do the disappearing act if someone seriously mentioned it to me.
Or may be I am just an old stick in the mud.

Well the above talk of yours and also opinion of Behemoth has now put a fear in me of the option of retrofitting even if its offered !....I will ask them whether they will get it factory fitted (which i guess may not be a possibility).

If its not so then probably there ends my quest for the classic fortuner as being involved in a topple case myself i will be more biased towards a safety feature which can in any which way contribute whatever little to avoid such a situation from repeating.
Its more like "atleast i bought whatever was available when i bought my automobile"

[Guderian]

Originally Posted by yaji

If its not so then probably there ends my quest for the classic fortuner as being involved in a topple case myself i will be more biased towards a safety feature which can in any which way contribute whatever little to avoid such a situation from repeating.

yaji,
- Can tell you at the outset factory fitting the Classic with the VSC is ruled out. Toyota ain't going to budge. And with a good reason too - of falling prey to multiple exceptions and changing the process and specs etc.
- Selecting the Facelifted Fortuner 4X4 with the VSC is the best choice to get the device.
Now that you have made up your mind - just zoom ahead, my friend, with the booking & push hard for a quick delivery. You won't slip anywhere at all in the process.
You've got VSC right ?!!