[ptaneja]

Originally Posted by Jignesh

Hello Puneet,

Thank you for the clarification.

So at a difference of merely Rs. 5 / 7 between per Kg of CNG & per litre of Diesel it clearly seems that for new car buyers it makes more sense to go for Diesel Cars. Also spending Rs. 40000 in installing a new CNG Kit does not seem to be a viable option, because you stand to lose the boot space in your Car. Specially for hatchback owners installing a CNG kit means loosing the entire Boot space.

I don't know whether it is a right place to discuss, but just inviting opinion from others, should one buy a second hand diesel car?

Thanks,

for all BS4 cars, the kit cost (sequential) is 54K to 65K ...

[LithiumSunset]

The last nail in the CNG coffin! Present long term (1st May 2009 to date) inflation in CNG is 24.7%.

Does anybody have any doubts about whether to buy or not buy a CNG car now?

Originally Posted by ptaneja

hahaha....
Pheeew ---its tough being optimistic and positive every time !

As long as you always compare with Petrol and block Diesel from your mind completely, ................. forever!

Here is another bright thought, since everybody is going to buy Diesel car now, we'll find lesser crowds at the CNG station!

Originally Posted by Jignesh

...I don't know whether it is a right place to discuss, but just inviting opinion from others, should one buy a second hand diesel car?

Do you think you are going find people selling their Diesel cars? Good luck mate.

[Jignesh]

Originally Posted by LithiumSunset

Do you think you are going find people selling their Diesel cars? Good luck mate.

Hello LithiumSunset,

I once again thank you for this wonderful (& eyes wide opening) thread. I don't know about others, but you have definitely managed to clear (knock off) CNG option from my mind. I want boot space so went till the extent of planning that I will buy a used Logan (which has a large boot) & install CNG kit.

Yes. Now I am looking for a second hand diesel car. But just as you mentioned it seems Diesel Car owners are not selling their cars.

Infact just for your information, I work with one of the largest software company in India & at any give point of time we have many people going onsite (foreign countries), wanting to sell their Cars & Bikes urgently. So currentlyI have three very good cars going at a cheaper rate, but unfortunately they are all Petrol cars.

I wonder whether any Diesel Car owner is going onsite or not .

Thanks,

[GTO]

Originally Posted by LithiumSunset

I have no technical knowledge on this

Ganesh aka car-techie dropped the following reply for you:

"I am also owning a Maruti Sx4 CNG - You try to always maintain full tank of petrol - never allow it to go below 7-10 liters down--This way you minimise evoporation losses; I have tried it and it works-- "

[LithiumSunset]

Originally Posted by GTO

Ganesh aka car-techie dropped the following reply for you:

"I am also owning a Maruti Sx4 CNG - You try to always maintain full tank of petrol - never allow it to go below 7-10 liters down--This way you minimise evaporation losses; I have tried it and it works-- "

Thanks for looking in GTO, but I could not follow the reference. In this post I was referring to the sequential vs. older type kits for which I wrote that "I have no technical knowledge on this"..

OTOH I do maintain a full tank now days, while the petrol consumption pattern does not get affected too much, my reasons for keeping a full tank is the feeling of security against the CNG malfunction I faced earlier.

[SAS]

Originally Posted by LithiumSunset

The last nail in the CNG coffin! Present long term (1st May 2009 to date) inflation in CNG is 24.7%.

Does anybody have any doubts about whether to buy or not buy a CNG car now?



As long as you always compare with Petrol and block Diesel from your mind completely, ................. forever!

Here is another bright thought, since everybody is going to buy Diesel car now, we'll find lesser crowds at the CNG station!



Do you think you are going find people selling their Diesel cars? Good luck mate.

Regarding CNG inflation, while as a percentage it has increased dramatically, in absolute terms it has actually increased much slower than both petrol and surprisingly even diesel. So the savings per km has actually increased over the past 3 years, had you bought a CNG vehicle then. And with the diesel prices going to increase in the near future, the savings for a CNG user is only going to go up.

Hope this dispels the doubts over using CNG and it's inflation. All prices below are ex Mumbai. Enjoy!!

[LithiumSunset]

16000km Update..

No real problems to report, except a resonant rattle on a hard 1st gear acceleration and for a fender bender when a young lad backed his owners' van into my parked car. Sure enough there was a dent in the rear bumper. But fortunately there was no paint peel or scratch.


So one hot summer day I headed over to Subhash, my usual denting painting Guy and while this fellow got to a cool bath:


I stood watching as the bumper was stripped off the main body


and brought back about 45 minutes later, all good. In fact so good that there is no point in showing any photographs!

I also had two minor dents, that a motorcyclemoron had inflicted a few months ago, tended to.


It was fascinating to see Subhash and his helper expertly bang it out gently using their special tools!


First they removed the inside cover and while one helper kept a heavy metal thingy pressed against the offending dent the other one hammered away with a lightly rounded steel flat..






Then I noticed the Grease Pouch and this is where the Indian Jugaad shines.


A little bit of was squeezed out and applied like a balm on the injured surface and then the small hammer came back. Now every stroke was 'marked' on the surface, they knew where to strike next!




I saw the dent vanish in front of my eyes...


Ok, its not 100% perfect, as no painting was involved, but I was satisfied that parting with 600 rupees was worth avoiding the hassle of giving the car over to the authorised service station and claiming insurance. What surprised me was the amount of hammering a painted Maruti sheet steel can take without getting damaged.

Now, of course, we wait for the big one! (May it be far in the future!)

But couple of hours that all this took, our friend had not left guarding the sewage station..
Attachment 957565
It was that hot, or rather cool!

Now lets come back to the pet peeve of this thread!

(Oh no, not again!)

Quite alarmed at the 0.3 liter of petrol that the car was consuming for every kg of CNG. I changed my driving habit a little bit. Now the morning crank of the egine starts it on petrol, I slowly take it out of the parking and turn it around to point to the main road, and before I really head out one hard rev-up switches the car to CNG mode. The couple of minutes it takes for one to do all that, the temp needle has moved a little bit, but I have noted that there is no point in revving up till it has moved!

So now I am relieved to note that the petrol consumption has dropped to 0.12 Liters per KG of CNG and the overall per KM costs have gone down by about 50 paise on account of Petrol. Probably keeping the Petrol tank always full has also helped by minimising the vapour loss.

But sadly, only relieved.

I looked at the figures that SAS has mentioned in his reply..

Originally Posted by SAS

Regarding CNG inflation, while as a percentage it has increased dramatically, in absolute terms it has actually increased much slower than both petrol and surprisingly even diesel. So the savings per km has actually increased over the past 3 years, had you bought a CNG vehicle then. And with the diesel prices going to increase in the near future, the savings for a CNG user is only going to go up.

Hope this dispels the doubts over using CNG and it's inflation. All prices below are ex Mumbai. Enjoy!!

But SAS is a little off in reporting the actual rates of inflation.

I have added a couple of columns to his table to get these:
Attachment 957573

only to rue the dismal figures in Delhi.
Attachment 957574

So while CNG inflation in Mumbai is indeed not the lowest, it is only a few percentage points more than diesel..

I coudnt resist and my penchant for extrapolating these numbers over a longer term brought me to this:


I was looking at the fuel part of the TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) for the kind of running I do per year (10000 to 11000 km). I wanted to see how bad my decision was. I plotted the Price of fuel as it would be over the next 10 years given the current rates of inflation that I have tracked over 10 years for the liquids and 3 years (that I could lay my hands on) for the gaseous one. It is interesting to note that CNG will cost the same as petrol just short of 8 years from now and then cost MORE! The only thing that works for it is the higher mileage.

Then I looked at the averages that the SX4 is giving in a few posts spread over the forum. The next three columns plot the yearly cost of fuel consumed for X km run per year for the three fuels. Further the next three columns give the cumulative totals of the yearly costs. Column S and T look at the net price difference between the Diesel variant and the petrol and if the saved money is put in a FD of nominal interest of 10%, the last two columns tell us the total Gain or Loss. So for my current run, after all the frequent waits at the gas station, a compromised boot, is it worth it?, I would just about break even, if I keep the car for 5 years. 10 years is out of the question.

Then I asked myself what if there are friends who say they have different yearly running. these results are as follows:

Lets see the figures for 5000 km per year:

BUT if you are going to do only 5000 km, why bother with CNG in the first place!

I bet 15000 will be the magic figure:

NOPE..

Surely 20000 will be better,

... are you joking?

I can safely say that if the whole point was to save on the fuel costs then there is no merit in buying a CNG car in Delhi at the current rates of inflation, unless you are going to sell it off within a year or two. In fact there will be no takers for CNG cars in about 2 or 3 years. (Amit Punjani, are you listening, unless you have got yourself a fabulous deal?).

It seems Mumbai scenario will be different, but probably only Mumbai enjoys this unique benefit. (So in some ways SAS you are right). Even in Pune the CNG price is above Rs.39 per kg as per my data.

(Can we please, please bury this debate once and for all, PLEASE)

Oh yes, time to look for a Duster or the Ecosport but only in Diesel!

BTW: For those with a spreadsheet bent of mind, I will be only too happy to share my file.

(What are you crazy, isn't this torture enough? You must be a sadist!)

Bye and cheers..

[amitpunjani]

Originally Posted by LithiumSunset

The last nail in the CNG coffin! Present long term (1st May 2009 to date) inflation in CNG is 24.7%.

Does anybody have any doubts about whether to buy or not buy a CNG car now?



As long as you always compare with Petrol and block Diesel from your mind completely, ................. forever!

Here is another bright thought, since everybody is going to buy Diesel car now, we'll find lesser crowds at the CNG station!



Do you think you are going find people selling their Diesel cars? Good luck mate.

Hi LS,

I went through your posts multiple times, many thanks for creating such a deatiled thread.

I have eventually booked SX4 diesel model.

Sincerly many thanks ones again for your inputs.

BR

Amit

[SAS]

Originally Posted by LithiumSunset

16000km Update..


I looked at the figures that SAS has mentioned in his reply..[/i]

Whoa!! That's a lot of analysis! Kudos Too much for me to digest though.

At the end of the day, please keep in mind that CNG is the fuel used for public transport and shall generally be lower than diesel. I would not agree that there would not be buyers for CNG in a few years, that is just far away from reality. In fact the number of people who have converted to CNG is pretty large. A cleaner fuel which gives a smoother ride and at the same time saving money is just awesome. There is always inflation, but I'm willing to bet that CNG shall be the more economical fuel. Been using CNG for over 2.5 years now and have saved over Rs. 200000 on it over 60000kms. Personally, I'm more than satisfied and couldnt have asked for more.

[Jignesh]

Originally Posted by LithiumSunset

Oh yes, time to look for a Duster or the Ecosport but only in Diesel!
BTW: For those with a spreadsheet bent of mind, I will be only too happy to share my file.

Hello Lithium Sunset,

Good to see you back with all your analysis after couple of months. The number you have presented depict the huge time & effort you have spent.

You have hit the bulls eye here - It is time to switch to Diesel Cars. During the next couple of years Diesel Cars seem to be the best & cheapest option.

Even I see no point in putting CNG Kit in Cars & loosing the boot space.

Thanks,

[bluevolt]

I really appreciate your effort in those sheets!

I agree with BHPian SAS that CNG is the fuel for public transport and it is highly unlikely that the price rise will be over the top in future just like diesel.

But I personally don't prefer CNG cars due to pump queues, zero boot space in case of hatchbacks, poor performance, safety (debatable), poor resale, consumption of petrol per KG CNG etc.

I too will prefer diesel any day over CNG in future.

[LithiumSunset]

Originally Posted by amitpunjani

Hi LS,

I went through your posts multiple times, many thanks for creating such a deatiled thread.

I have eventually booked SX4 diesel model.

Sincerly many thanks ones again for your inputs.

BR

Amit

A sane decision Amit, considering the current price (drops) available on cars. On hindsight I do remember that when I was in the process of buying (about two years ago) there was no SX4 Diesel, the ANHC price had not been (substantially) dropped and Vento Diesel was still catching on. BTW I sat in SX4 Diesel Cab a few weeks ago and I could not make out the difference in the NVH levels, at least.

Originally Posted by SAS

Whoa!! That's a lot of analysis! Kudos Too much for me to digest though.

At the end of the day, please keep in mind that CNG is the fuel used for public transport and shall generally be lower than diesel. I would not agree that there would not be buyers for CNG in a few years, that is just far away from reality. In fact the number of people who have converted to CNG is pretty large. A cleaner fuel which gives a smoother ride and at the same time saving money is just awesome. There is always inflation, but I'm willing to bet that CNG shall be the more economical fuel. Been using CNG for over 2.5 years now and have saved over Rs. 200000 on it over 60000kms. Personally, I'm more than satisfied and couldnt have asked for more.

If CNG was indeed a fuel for public transport then it should not have seen a consistent 25% inflation. In fact I had banked on the fact that like diesel, CNG too would see diesel kind of inflation. My calculations show that in my 18 odd months of ownership, I too have saved about 40k+, however this will not continue if the price keeps increasing at this rate is the real point I am making. As I have said earlier, the reason for buying CNG cars is first for the savings and then we make 'compromises' by saying it is sequential, there is hardly any, imperceptible, negligible power loss and top it by convincing ourselves that it is 'cleaner'! The savings are indeed there if one sees only the money spent on fuel, but the moment you factor in the extra price you paid for the kit and what that money is worth today, things change!

Originally Posted by Jignesh

Hello Lithium Sunset,

Good to see you back with all your analysis after couple of months. The number you have presented depict the huge time & effort you have spent.

You have hit the bulls eye here - It is time to switch to Diesel Cars. During the next couple of years Diesel Cars seem to be the best & cheapest option.

Even I see no point in putting CNG Kit in Cars & loosing the boot space.

Thanks,

Thanks Jignesh..

Originally Posted by bluevolt

I really appreciate your effort in those sheets!

I agree with BHPian SAS that CNG is the fuel for public transport and it is highly unlikely that the price rise will be over the top in future just like diesel.

But I personally don't prefer CNG cars due to pump queues, zero boot space in case of hatchbacks, poor performance, safety (debatable), poor resale, consumption of petrol per KG CNG etc.

I too will prefer diesel any day over CNG in future.

Honestly, Bluevolt, pump queues are not that bad, your timing at the vend matters. I figured out that the boot in the SX4 has been compromised more because they did not use a cylinder of the right length. I can feel 6 inches of space between the rear seat back and the cylinder and that is substantial. But I dont think the performance is compromised for the sequential kitted SX4.

On the price, the past three years do not bear out the Fuel of the Masses logic, we can only wait and watch.

Originally Posted by LithiumSunset

16000km Update..

Now, of course, we wait for the big one! (May it be far in the future!)

I may have wished that the the big one is far in the future, but the someone did this to my parked car yesterday!



Who would believe the same spot will suffer a bigger injury. A young James Bond tried to reverse his Swift out of the Khan Market parking, and my car which was making space, driven by the attendant (I was away shopping for a lamp) got hit again. When I came back and noticed the horror, the attendant correctly blamed Bond who in turn blamed the attendant to have not warned him. The young man said he'll pay for my repair costs but the attendant should pay for his damages! The damage to my fender was substantially more than what his minor scrape was. I silently watched in dismay the whole thing degenerate into a lot of heated argument.

Somehow, its only age (if not upbringing) that makes you own up to your mistake. I could not quite fathom the bizarre logic of young blood that it wasn't his mistake! In the end it was he who was driving the his car! Best part is that I never loose my cool. It doesn't take you anywhere. So I let it play out a little bit, but in the end shook hands with the James Bond and told him I'll get it repaired and send him the bill and hope he'll live up to his word.

In my driving life of 16-17 years, I have had three accidents where my car was damaged enough to warrant denting-painting. I aver (much to my better half's vehement denial) that none of them were due to my mistakes. In the first one a motorcyclemoron jumped a red light and hit my car, just as I was clearing the junction. That time, motorcyclemoron's argument was that he should be compensated because he was driving the smaller vehicle!! Isn't it always the Car at fault? Hilarious, anyway the cop on duty came to my rescue but the repair then was paid for by my insurance. The other two times I 'took on' much larger opponents, once a TATA 10 Ton truck, who suddenly swerved left when we were both starting from a signal and many years later a 40' trailer! On both these occasions I came away with compensation on the spot by keeping my cool, and remember these were hardened truck drivers.

I hope I am lucky for the fourth time too. Only this time I'm relying on someone's word! On the brighter side my wife agrees that it wasn't my fault this time, after all I wasn't even there when it happened. :-)

[rkbharat]

Originally Posted by LithiumSunset

Who would believe the same spot will suffer a bigger injury. A young James Bond tried to reverse his Swift out of the Khan Market parking, and my car which was making space, driven by the attendant (I was away shopping for a lamp) got hit again. When I came back and noticed the horror, the attendant correctly blamed Bond who in turn blamed the attendant to have not warned him. The young man said he'll pay for my repair costs but the attendant should pay for his damages! The damage to my fender was substantially more than what his minor scrape was. I silently watched in dismay the whole thing degenerate into a lot of heated argument.

Sorry about the back to back hit, but this again can be a candidate for dry denting unless you want it really clean.

I had exactly similar hit couple of months back and with almost similary damages. MASS guys brought it back to shape in 500 Rs.

They use fire flames to bring it back to positions ans used rubbing to remove few spot. There are still some scratch marks but I can live with it.

[amitpunjani]

Hi LS,

Extremely sorry to see your post with dented bumper. I can imagine how it feels.

The sole purpose of going ahead with Diesel was now no extra cost benefit now. I understand, diesel hike is very much on the cards but i hope it won't be more than Rs 3/Litre.

Paying extra for Diesel, did pinch me a bit, considering the discounts CNG model has... but hope in the long run won't regret my decission.

Thanks

Amit

[LithiumSunset]

Rkbharat, you are right, they do use 'fire-flames' of an oxyacetelene torch for heating the plastic.. l really liked your choice of words 'fire-flames'. What I regret most is the time wasted, nobody will compensate me for that!

Amit, what are the discounts available across the variants? It's really a game of numbers, but I can safely say that even at 3 es. It's not bad at all