[Red Liner]

I meant it in jest. I understand the frustration people go through.

[jaysmokesleaves]

Ive been on holiday while I sent the Safari for the service light resolution.
I was to receive the vehicle on Saturday after injectors & HP lines were to be replaced as part of the solution. However, I found out yesterday that the vehicle is nowhere close to ready.
One of the injectors on the head is not opening. 3 have opened. They claim to have tried using special tools for 3 days thu-Sat with no result. So now they will replace the entire head. An order(VOR) has been placed and Iam told that the head will arrive on Tue and will be fitted on Wed and I should receive the Safari by Thu.

I have one question for the experts.
When the head is replaced with a new one isnt necessary to also replace all the valves and the associated components ?
I feel this is necessary since the old valves may not necessarily fit well enough to maintain optimal power as delivered the earlier head-valve setup. Please advise.

[taranonline]

looks like the famous desi 4x4 in trouble again. What is the mileage on the odo?

[tsk1979]

The blocks done 30K kms, will a brand new head done 0kms seat properly on the old block? Ideally they should replace both the head and the engine block. But maybe modern manufacturing/engineering practices mean that even brand new heads will perfectly seat on old blocks without issue?
Anyways hang on! you are getting a half new engine

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

The blocks done 30K kms, will a brand new head done 0kms seat properly on the old block? Ideally they should replace both the head and the engine block. But maybe modern manufacturing/engineering practices mean that even brand new heads will perfectly seat on old blocks without issue?
Anyways hang on! you are getting a half new engine

I think it is okay to change the head as it is quite common to change only the head but, I think the valves and related components may need to change as well.

Jay, I suggest you get some expert opinion on this from a good independent mechanic and get TASS to change the head and related components like Valves, etc.

This would seriously upset me. Living with issues and having to visit TASS is one thing, having to change my engine head at 30K miles would really piss me off !!

I think you should also look into what they mean by the pressure lines coming off? Is it possible that they screwed up/damaged your head while trying to the the pressure lines changed?

[jaysmokesleaves]

There is nothing wrong with the head. The head has to be replaced because they are unable to open one injector. However, I have written to TML to replace the head with all the components.
Pressure lines coming off ? Whats that ?
Even if 'they' damaged the head, they ought to replace whats broke.
As long as I get the vehicle back with problem solved even if this results in them having to replace a whole lot of things with new ones. They built the vehicle they maintain it so they fix it.

[kingshukt]

From what I understood, they are changing only the head. The head does not come with Valves and Injectors. These are fitted separately and subsequently. They will have to "down" the full engine for this operation.

However since one injector is stuck on the old head, they will have to put in a new injector in its place.

The block surface may be ground / scrapped / polished to ensure proper seating with the head. This, I think will be the call of the TASS. A good mechanic / TASS would run a dial guage on the surface to check out the distortions on the block (if any) before they decide upon their next course of action. The block is CI as against an Aluminium head. At 30K distortions on the block is a low possibility unless the waterlines have been clogged / blocked or the block's lubrication was poor. Both extreme possibility.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves

Pressure lines coming off ? Whats that ?
Even if 'they' damaged the head, they ought to replace whats broke.
As long as I get the vehicle back with problem solved even if this results in them having to replace a whole lot of things with new ones. They built the vehicle they maintain it so they fix it.

Sorry, I meant the injectors. Just sounds strange that they can not remove the injector so they have to replace the whole head. I am just wondering if they screwed up something while trying to remove the injectors.

Either way as you suggested, as long as they replace it, it should be fine.

[rrsteer]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

This would seriously upset me. Living with issues and having to visit TASS is one thing, having to change my engine head at 30K miles would really piss me off !!

Exactly my thoughts! Just not acceptable. There should be some accountability from the manufacturer.

Somewhere, I also think that this a lazy attitude being demonstrated by TASS and TML. They just go on randomly changing parts without actually diagnosing the real fault. And it also amounts to being indifferent and disrespectful to the owner, who has paid almost a million bucks and sustains this manufacturer, *** jugalbandi.

[anupmathur]

Kingshukt, the head is fitted to the block with a copper-clad or soft-iron-clad gasket. Not much drama involved with dial gauges etc.
It is, of course, very important that the gasket thickness be the same as the old one; but then these are invariably standardized by a maker.
It will also be probably required to have the mounting bolts re-tensioned after a few hours of 'running-in' after head replacement.

4X4addict, injectors get stuck in the mounting tubes if: 1) the copper gasket or the metallic seal at the seat has leaked. Combustion gases then force and pound carbon into the annular space between the injector and the mounting hole.
OR,
2) While fitting an injector if it gets cross-threaded, again it sometimes becomes impossible to unscrew it!

While the occurrence of such mishaps is not common, it is not unheard of.

[kingshukt]

Originally Posted by anupmathur

Kingshukt, the head is fitted to the block with a copper-clad or soft-iron-clad gasket.

4X4addict, injectors get stuck in the mounting tubes if: 1) the copper gasket or the metallic seal at the seat has leaked. Combustion gases then force and pound carbon into the annular space between the injector and the mounting hole.
OR,
2) While fitting an injector if it gets cross-threaded, again it sometimes becomes impossible to unscrew it!

While the occurrence of such mishaps is not common, it is not unheard of.

Sirjee. You are right about the gasket (though I am not sure about the gasket material).
Since the reason for the injector jam is not known, and gasket damage / leakage had occurred to me, I thought that checking the block for warpage should be done.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by kingshukt

Sirjee. You are right about the gasket (though I am not sure about the gasket material).
Since the reason for the injector jam is not known, and gasket damage / leakage had occurred to me, I thought that checking the block for warpage should be done.

Well As Jay wrote the suspected issue was only with injector , Now IMHO in any independent garage mechanics must have tried to open the injector little bit more seriously , In TML workshops company is generously providing a spare head along with injectors so they might have tried a bit and then gave up.

Any way from customers point of view it is a half new engine and mechanics point of view less work so a win - win situation.
Only TML has to loose money on new head

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Any way from customers point of view it is a half new engine and mechanics point of view less work so a win - win situation.
Only TML has to loose money on new head

Amit, my point is that it will upset me if I spend 13 lakhs on the road for an SUV and am at 30K miles the dealer has to pull out and replace the engine head !!

This is purely my point of view. As far as Jay is concerned he plans to milk the juice out of this truck before the 4 year 150k km warranty is up so it works for him.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Amit, my point is that it will upset me if I spend 13 lakhs on the road for an SUV and am at 30K miles the dealer has to pull out and replace the engine head !!

This is purely my point of view. As far as Jay is concerned he plans to milk the juice out of this truck before the 4 year 150k km warranty is up so it works for him.

My reply was in response to Kigshukts comment about the head warping,
As I understood the problem was not with head but it is getting changed just because T.A.S.S has an option to replace FOC.

The need for changing the injector itself is bad and TML need to do some serious soul searching why this service light issue came up at all. If it is a gasket failure or carbon deposit due to bad fuel does not matter to customer at all.

On part of TML they need to put in more resorces for identifying the root cause and taking up with suppliers to provide reliable components, I think by opting for easy way out to replace parts free of cost TML is paying the cost not only in terms of replacement parts under warrenty but reduced confidence of new customers as well.


From TASS point of view I am sure if the companey was not paying for head they would have put some serious effort to unscrew the injector. Most of the time A.S.S do the trial and error game because they have luxury to replace costly parts FOC.

If you look at the Jeep threads people try all sorts of means to make old parts work because mechanics know easy option of replacing everything one by one is not available.

[jaysmokesleaves]

@4X4ADDICT, AMITK26 >>
Firstly regarding the need for head replacement. The TASS told me that they tried for 3 days to remove the stuck injector using special tools, but it remained jammed. Either what they are saying is true or they might have damaged the head in the process necessitating replacement.

I would be lying if I say that im not upset. Im upset, because this mechanical fiasco has caused loss of valuable time the Safari has spent in the TASS that I could have spent better, tripping.
Also I hope that this head replacement etc does not lead to something else cropping up in the future, the chances of which I feel are remote due to the fully new head assembly, injectors etc. Time will decide the truth in my apprehension.

I do take very good care of my truck too, no misuse. I drive it the way it is supposed to be driven, keep it clean and it is serviced and maintained upto date by TASS.
As far as the replacements are concerned, I have received word that it will be a completely new sealed head complete with valves,etc followed by new injectors and HP lines. If all these changes lead to the resolution of the sevice light issue I am certainly happy. Though im not happy with the inconvenience caused.
But this entire fiasco says a lot about the appauling and poor QC standards of TML that resulted in the service light showing up in the first place. It also reflects the inability of the TASS to 'immediately' diagnose the problem.
On the positive side TML seems to fully support its TASS in troubleshooting by supporting parts replacement under warranty(the need of which, would never arise if they had good QC in the first place). Potentially, the only saving grace for a Safari customer.

Where does this leave me as a Tata Safari customer.
Potentially satisfied, not happy not sad and very apprehensive. I guess this is why TML offers a 2 year extended warranty, to reduce apprehension.

Anyways, all this does not take away the fact that the Safari is a wonderful suv which can only get better with time and can do better without such niggling issues cropping up to play spiolsport.

The urge for the next trip has just gotten stronger.