[mercedised]

Originally Posted by bj96

just a correction. Diesel has no ignition. What I meant by "retard" is that it will slow the explosion of fuel in the cylinder and hence impart lesser rotational momentum to the shaft in that stroke.

OT: Btw, how is RPM measured in Safari? is it from alternator pulse or from shaft speed?

-BJ

Most of the vehicle uses Alternator for RPM.. maybe new safari also takes its input from alternator.

[theMAG]

So the only thing left unchanged is the chassis!

[aaggoswami]

1) TSK1979, I am yet to see a person as patient as you. Appreciate your patience.

2) Dont you think your car is a lemon ? You earlier had issue with 4X4 system, next, something else and the problems are not yet over. IIRC, you still have some braking issue.
Considering all this, its time to push for a new vehicle. I dont know how many times you have visited the service center.

3) The entire engine has to be replaced if a new head is not able to solve the problem. Dont go for any parts replacement now, go for a new engine or if possible, push for a new car.

Its new height for problem prone car. No customer expects this after paying good amount of money.

[architect]

Well, Tata has been acting, but it has been acting in the wrong directions, I guess.

Tsk, my earnest advice to you is to clarify with TML your position after expiry of your basic warranty and commencement of your extended warranty, and get it in writing. Just see the latest on my ownership thread to know why. I wouldn't want anyone else (even if they are much wiser than me ) to be in that position.

[MileCruncher]

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

Sorry if you consider this OT, but IMHO, a 2.5-3 lakh rupee Alto is more reliable and less problem prone as compared to tsks' car. Time for Tata to act.

I feel this is quite a blanket statement that is unwarranted here. As a matter of fact I'm quite sure MUL does also makes lemons but let us not get into for the time being and lose focus on task at hand. But one thing you have to remember it is this white elephant that has transported Tanveer over to lot of uncharted territory trouble free. Anyways having read your comments in various posts/thread all I would like to say is that an unbiased view to life in general does help.

I think TML is acting, agreed they haven't been able to pinpoint the diagnosis but I'm sure they haven't stopped looking and decided to turn a blind eye to the customer.

Tanveer all I can say is you have a good chance of getting a whole engine, even though chances of a full car replacement seems to be a distant possibility.

[Vid6639]

Just when we thought that it is all coming to an end there is a kahani mein twist.

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

I feel this is quite a blanket statement that is unwarranted here. As a matter of fact I'm quite sure MUL does also makes lemons but let us not get into for the time being and lose focus on task at hand. Anyways having read your comments in various posts/thread all I would like to say is that an unbiased view to life in general does help.

I think TML is acting, agreed they haven't been able to pinpoint the diagnosis but I'm sure they haven't stopped looking and decided to turn a blind eye to the customer.

Tanveer all I can say is you have a good chance of getting a whole engine, even though chances of a full car replacement seems to be a distant possibility.

May be rather than Alto, Nano would be a better fit. Sorry if that brings out negative feelings.

I am miles away, but reading about the constantly reoccurring problems does disappoint me. Its not matter of Alto or Nano. Its matter of what is quality control and what is ability to solve an issue.

Total lack of quality control, one or the other issue, many things replaced and many visits to service center. Its all avoidable considering fact that Tata has regularly improved on products. They are not able to solve a problem since when ? I have read other thread also called " Protest against Tata motors " and I am aware of Drpullockrams' Indica. Here its nothing but lack of quality control.

Positive point is that Tata is acting, but not in the direction helpful to customers. IMHO, its time the car is replaced considering the amount of problems. The list of parts replaced is long enough to prove that there is some defect in car and its not entire problem free. The right step would be to replace the car as it would beneficial to customer. Nobody has time to visit SC/call SC repeatedly for one or the other problem.

[cool_dube]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Fuel pump was changed on experimental basis, but it did not work. I am thinking it has something to do with compression, as the guage showed low compression in one cylinder.

TSK - compression loss always gets translated into loss in power. Are you facing the same since the dancing needle problem started???

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

3) The entire engine has to be replaced if a new head is not able to solve the problem. Dont go for any parts replacement now, go for a new engine or if possible, push for a new car.

Its new height for problem prone car. No customer expects this after paying good amount of money.

In case the problem is due to some of the numerous sensor existing as Dadu pointed the possibility and persists after full engine replacement how do you propose to move forward.

This problem is not a showstopper and does not result in any power / performance issue and causes RPM fluctuation only at the time of cold start.
As you pointed towards ALTO let me tell you one thing , As per may experience with MUL they would have easily dismissed this as normal instead of trying to fix. I do not want to debate may be they also go to extent of parts replacement endlessly or car replacement as you suggest but my experience in 4 cities is that they just dismiss small issues and show you 4 other cars perfectly fine with same thing in their yard and tell you should also be fine with the particular issue .

[tsk1979]

Ok, I will try to answer all the queries.
First lets come to the sensors etc.,
Safari RPM is read via alternator pulse, as in most other vehicles.
Now coming to temperature sensor, that has also been changed multiple times, but for some other problem.

In general, no sensor can cause "compression loss".
So it was a mechanical problem. Infact I remember, once this problem went away for 500kms after replacing a 15rs washer(which sits at the injector seat).
Changing head has definitely made a difference. The fluctuation is much much less now. Happens very slightly.
My guess is that there may be a microscopic leak in the cylinder 2(bottom), and a major leak in cylinder 2 head. With the complete head replaced, the problem has almost gone away. but after 500kms of driving, it may surface.
Its the first time that the magnitude of the problem has lessened quite a bit.

Coming to the warranty aspect, the customer care guys have clearly told me, that regarding this problem everybody is aware, and warranty or no warranty, I will not be charged for any replacements I need. Moreover, the entire drivetrain is covered under extended warranty, so I do not have to worry.
But they say that now that they have nailed the root cause(loss of compression), if there is a need for a complete engine change, they will do that too.

For now they want me to drive for around 500kms(time to get the head seated). According to them, if there is a leak somewhere, it will show up completely once the head is seated.

Regarding cracked cylinder, I am hoping its not something that drastic. Cylinder heads do not normally crack like this.
Regarding power loss etc., there is nothing noticeable. I am told such a minor leak will not lead to power loss, and moreover it gets sealed once engine warms up.

Regarding this white elephant being a lemon, I hope not. As for this problem, its a problem which could not be caught for 25000kms, and as a result almost the entire car has been replaced part by part.
That said, I am pretty amazed the way Tata keeps replacing parts with no questions asked. In other manufacturers, whenever you have injector problems etc., most service centers try to brush you away saying "You must have put bad fuel" etc.,
So while their product and quality department may be totally safarshi engineers, their customer care sure has improved, atleast for the safari owners.

[mercedised]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Ok, I will try to answer all the queries.
First lets come to the sensors etc.,
Safari RPM is read via alternator pulse, as in most other vehicles.
Now coming to temperature sensor, that has also been changed multiple times, but for some other problem.

In general, no sensor can cause "compression loss".
So it was a mechanical problem. Infact I remember, once this problem went away for 500kms after replacing a 15rs washer(which sits at the injector seat).
Changing head has definitely made a difference. The fluctuation is much much less now. Happens very slightly.
My guess is that there may be a microscopic leak in the cylinder 2(bottom), and a major leak in cylinder 2 head. With the complete head replaced, the problem has almost gone away. but after 500kms of driving, it may surface.
Its the first time that the magnitude of the problem has lessened quite a bit.

Coming to the warranty aspect, the customer care guys have clearly told me, that regarding this problem everybody is aware, and warranty or no warranty, I will not be charged for any replacements I need. Moreover, the entire drivetrain is covered under extended warranty, so I do not have to worry.
But they say that now that they have nailed the root cause(loss of compression), if there is a need for a complete engine change, they will do that too.

For now they want me to drive for around 500kms(time to get the head seated). According to them, if there is a leak somewhere, it will show up completely once the head is seated.

Regarding cracked cylinder, I am hoping its not something that drastic. Cylinder heads do not normally crack like this.
Regarding power loss etc., there is nothing noticeable. I am told such a minor leak will not lead to power loss, and moreover it gets sealed once engine warms up.

Regarding this white elephant being a lemon, I hope not. As for this problem, its a problem which could not be caught for 25000kms, and as a result almost the entire car has been replaced part by part.
That said, I am pretty amazed the way Tata keeps replacing parts with no questions asked. In other manufacturers, whenever you have injector problems etc., most service centers try to brush you away saying "You must have put bad fuel" etc.,
So while their product and quality department may be totally safarshi engineers, their customer care sure has improved, atleast for the safari owners.

Okay! so the compression loss is frpm 2nd cylinder:
Please do the following checks when you visit TASS next time:
1) Checkout for worn CAM LOBE, Push Rod Lifter, Bent Push ROD. for cylinder 2:

and most importantly this time tell them to do "LEAK TEST RATHER THAN COMPRESSION TEST"

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by mercedised

Okay! so the compression loss is frpm 2nd cylinder:
Please do the following checks when you visit TASS next time:
1) Checkout for worn CAM LOBE, Push Rod Lifter, Bent Push ROD. for cylinder 2:
and most importantly this time tell them to do "LEAK TEST RATHER THAN COMPRESSION TEST"

@mercedised: The complete cylinder head has been replaced, including cams and valves. Even if a cam lobe was worn out, there's a new cam inside now. And this is an OHC engine, no pushrods there.

If cyl2 shows loss of compression after 500km, a leak test would of course be in order to check for integrity of the rings/cylinder wall.

[mercedised]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

@mercedised: The complete cylinder head has been replaced, including cams and valves. Even if a cam lobe was worn out, there's a new cam inside now. And this is an OHC engine, no pushrods there.

If cyl2 shows loss of compression after 500km, a leak test would of course be in order to check for integrity of the rings/cylinder wall.

Ya! i got it sir.
so, we must assume that entire valve train is changed.
Then the problem may lie in worn cylinder(i donot know how it can worn out so early) or PLZ try by replacing piston rings they might see ok from outside but sometimes the fact is different from what we think.

[tsk1979]

Since the problem has reduced to a large extent, and fluctuation is very minimal, I guess this step will be done when the fluctuations increase. Leaks only get worse with time. So lets see, another 500kms to go!

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by amitk26

1) In case the problem is due to some of the numerous sensor existing as Dadu pointed the possibility and persists after full engine replacement how do you propose to move forward.

2) This problem is not a showstopper and does not result in any power / performance issue and causes RPM fluctuation only at the time of cold start.

3) As you pointed towards ALTO

1) IIRC, many sensors were changed and tsk has mentioned the same.

2) What if the engine loses power after a few months. If a compression loss is detected at such an early stage, one can push in for engine replacement. The compression loss is diagonised, something that must not have happened in early engine life.

IMO, lets wait for 500 kms to be completed after head change.

a) problem was traced to compression loss through valves. Head changed.
b) Problem does not go.

If any compression loss is there after 500-1000kms of head change, I think its valid to change engine. Gradually the problem will escalate and lead to noticeable powerloss. At that point of time it must not happen that Tata motors say " regular wear and tear ".

3) I had asked to move that part. Its being done, best keep it away from this thread. Sorry again if you have felt negative from that part.