[suman]

Guys, Guys, we need a separate thread in "Shifting Gears" for this, lets not clutter up Tanveer's ownership thread with these discussions.

Having said that, a couple of points here for my good friend Devdath -

Originally Posted by n.devdath

TBHP is a forum which has more knowledgeable, tech savvy and passionate people compared to the customers outside. Which is also one of the reasons why the Safari numbers are more. It tugs more at the heart than the head

So, you're saying that although the members are more knowledgeable & tech savvy, they still make the incorrect choice when it comes to their own purchases & go with the heart (Safari)? Hmmm, something smells & it ain't the fish?

Originally Posted by n.devdath

TBHP samples are too small for impartial analysis.

So the TBHP samples are accurate for all other SUVs & MUVs but not for the Safari? Or are they too small for impartial analysis, period?

If the latter, then are you suggesting that reports of no niggles or low niggles (or whatever) for vehicles like the Innova & the Scorpio are also not representative & that these vehicles also have a whole lot of problems/niggles in the real world outside? Or what are you saying ?

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by suman

Having said that, a couple of points here for my good friend Devdath -
So, you're saying that although the members are more knowledgeable & tech savvy, they still make the incorrect choice when it comes to their own purchases & go with the heart (Safari)? Hmmm, something smells & it ain't the fish?

They are knowledgeable and tech savvy but are passionate as well(I believe I mentioned that as well), so they, with their knowledge and the confidence being able to handle such a product with its niggles,go ahead and buy objects of passion in greater numbers than the general market.

Originally Posted by suman

So the TBHP samples are accurate for all other SUVs & MUVs but not for the Safari? Or are they too small for impartial analysis, period?

Where did I say that?

Originally Posted by suman

If the latter, then are you suggesting that reports of no niggles or low niggles (or whatever) for vehicles like the Innova & the Scorpio are also not representative & that these vehicles also have a whole lot of problems/niggles in the real world outside? Or what are you saying ?

My entire post focuses on what the Safari has managed to achieve in terms of sales numbers, resale values and customer perception in the open market compared to the Scorpio and the Innova.
It has been there and is there for everyone to see, month on month, year on year.
I don't understand what is so tough here Suman?

And please read the post in its entirety, not by politically dissecting it in bits and pieces to arrive at different meanings for different sentences. In fact, let me sum it up for you, to make it easier, though I had done it in my previous post as well.

The Safari is a vehicle which is great as a concept and hence appeals to heart. It is spacious, comfortable, better looking and FE compared to its rivals. Yet, it loses out on poor QC, execution and consequently in holding its value in the market when compared to its rivals.
Forget me and you, the market, which in any case, is the ultimate judge of all products, has preferred the Innova and the Scorpio compared to the Safari.
And that, is all that matters.

All right then,lets move on, shall we.

Hey I have a question for Tanveer though.

Do you think that by procuring better quality aftermarket clips, hoses, wiring connectors etc, and fitting them, indiviudal Safari owners can make their trucks better in quality? It will involve some DIY but do you feel it is possible?

[suman]

Devdath, I'll let that bit about "politically dissecting" pass but do take a look at your own post in reply to Pavan's specific point. Without getting into a discussion on whether Pavan's viewpoint is incorrect & your's is or vice versa, please remember that an answer to a specific question would be taken at face value -

Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM

1) I am talking here for T-BHP, Very much relevently. Please put all your Scorpio's , Xylo's and Innovas together, they dont even come closer to Safari Numbers on this Very forum. Why would the majority of the (limited T-BHP folks) buy a Safari if others are Better products. Any answers...............?

Originally Posted by n.devdath

Yes, Raghu has a troublefree vehicle which is also why he is also a fan of it but again, TBHP samples are too small for impartial analysis.

And ss far as the TATA QC is concerned, isn't that what everyone has been complaining about throughout this thread & elsewhere? Is there anything new being said? Having said that, should everyone contemplating a hatch purchase the Alto - since it sets the sales charts on fire, it must be the best, right!!

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by suman

Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM
1) I am talking here for T-BHP, Very much relevently. Please put all your Scorpio's , Xylo's and Innovas together, they dont even come closer to Safari Numbers on this Very forum. Why would the majority of the (limited T-BHP folks) buy a Safari if others are Better products. Any answers...............?

My answer is below:
That was my first point Pavan. TBHP is a very small sample to be analyzed when analysing a vehicle. Such analyses should be made on a larger scale taking sales figures, trends and other numbers that the vehicle has done.

How is this answer irrelevant Suman? I have said it in all my posts that just because TBHPians buy the Safari in greater numbers compared to the Scorpio/Innova doesn't mean that it is better. The bigger open market needs to be considered as it is a far bigger sample than TBHP. I have also said why members of such passionate forums, inspite of being informed, buy such vehicles in my answer ahead. Quoting it again:
Moreover TBHP is a forum which has more knowledgeable, tech savvy and passionate people compared to the customers outside. Which is also one of the reasons why the Safari numbers are more. It tugs more at the heart than the head, which can be seen on TBHP and other forums where passion has a place. In the open market outside though, even though one may be a Safari fan, they abhor buying it compared to its competitors due to its niggles, QC issues and poor resale value, which again, is a cascading effect of the above issues.
In fact, when I was at a buying decision for a friend, GTO himself made a very relevant point about the Safari:

Originally Posted by GTO

Gowda, it's not a generalised statement at all. The Safari has received below average reliability ratings in a majority of our ownership reviews.

I'm happy to hear that your Safari has been trouble-free. However, lets be real here and talk averages. The key question is : How many Safaris out of every 1000 sold have problems? The number of problems - averaged - for the Safari is way higher than the industry average. C'mon, its really not about the cars we own either. For example, I consider my own C220 to be an unreliable machine due to its many problems. That doesn't mean every C220 out there is problematic, but it is a fact that a 100% reliable C220 is more the exception than the rule (averaging by the 100s or 1000s again).

Originally Posted by suman

And ss far as the TATA QC is concerned, isn't that what everyone has been complaining about throughout this thread & elsewhere? Is there anything new being said? Having said that, should everyone contemplating a hatch purchase the Alto - since it sets the sales charts on fire, it must be the best, right!!

What is being said here is very simple. Let us not glorify or bash a brand/vehicle based on passion and TBHP figures alone. We ought to look at the open market and its reactions as well which represent a larger audience.

This is hilarious. you feel that comparing Safari sales to Scorpio/Innova sales is akin to comparing Alto sales to sales of all hatches in the market irrespective of their pricing, target customers and stuff.
I wish I could use more smileys(ROFLTMAO..!!!).

[suman]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

This is hilarious. you feel that comparing Safari sales to Scorpio/Innova sales is akin to comparing Alto sales to sales of all hatches in the market irrespective of their pricing, target customers and stuff.
I wish I could use more smileys(ROFLTMAO..!!!).

No, I think you missed the point. The point is - just because the Innova sales are meteoric, it doesn't mean that it suits the requirements of a discerning Safari (or even a Scorpio) buyer. Each vehicle has certain characteristics that appeal to a set of people who make a decision to purchase it.

Therefore, everybody may not necessarily buy the bestseller. Why is it so difficult to understand?

We are not debating Safari QC here. As for reliability - lets go with hard statistics from owners then & not look at all-India sales numbers.

Lets also remember the Innova is a peoples mover & the bulk of the sales need to be compared with the Sumos, the Grandes & the Taveras.

PS: Last post from me on this particular topic 'cos I think I've cluttered up Tanveer's ownership thread enough - these topics have already been covered multiple times before.

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Really ? I see it as pure bovine manure .. Check the Swift and Scorpio thread on how many serious problems those owners encounter.
Do a search on Swift + problems in T-BHP itself.

You surely must be joking. My Swift's done 48.7k km on the trot in 20 months - as mostly others. Simple fill it, shut it, forget it. Not a murmur, not a whisper of an issue.

There are far more swifts than safaris - and far more safari issues than swift issues. And swifts with reliability issues - far far lesser. Seriously, cmon.

Epicenter.rules has posted his 2L in 3 years stats, GSMINC has posted his 1L in 2 years stats. Eddy's done <90k in 3 years with the only issue being a clutch replacement. All mostly painless.

I'd invite you to measure it and post it. Please do follow up your labels of bovine manure with hard data - I'd gladly eat my words if you have the data. IF.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by suman

Guys, Guys, we need a separate thread in "Shifting Gears" for this, lets not clutter up Tanveer's ownership thread with these discussions.

^ ^ +1 to that.

Oh, boy! What a rollicking war going on here! No, I don't own a Safari, but yes, I do follow the technicals of it. So Tanveer had a few more than his fair share of niggles. So what? Every single OEM and every single model has oodles of cases where the owner has not been satisfied. The Safari is well-engineered (but not brilliantly so), and a few niggles in a few cars - well, that's expected. I know of a few Innovas where things have not worked as expected - but we on T-BHP think the Innova is infallible. The same goes for Fords, Marutis, M&Ms and you name it.

So why the war????

[amitk26]

@phamilyman your relationship with Swift is more or less similar to what Pavan has for Safari

The headlne you have put is misleading

Originally Posted by phamilyman

You surely must be joking. My Swift's done 48.7k km on the trot in 20 months - as mostly others. Simple fill it, shut it, forget it. Not a murmur, not a whisper of an issue.

There are far more swifts than safaris - and far more safari issues than swift issues. And swifts with reliability issues - far far lesser. Seriously, cmon.

So what if you and few others have done 47K or even 2L K do you mean to say all those who post problems such as turbo hose coming off , gear slotting problems , jerks , clutch and break issues or engine check lights are liars ?

Did you even did a simple search on Team BHP with Swift + problem as search string before jumping to reply ?

Originally Posted by phamilyman

I'd invite you to measure it and post it. Please do follow up your labels of bovine manure with hard data - I'd gladly eat my words if you have the data. IF.

The bovine manure was in context of the alleged claim of leasing company so you need to see in context.
About hard data it is available there on T-BHP itself you just need to do some search.

Around 4-5 swifts I have car pooled in Bangalore almost all make kuch -kuch sound on large humps in less then 2 years and 40 K Km.
I sounded alert to the owners on suspension and bush kind of thing but every time they laughed at it citing M.A.S.S guys says all is well.

In a way A.S.S is correct there is a large gap between the actual suspension job and first signs.

I am not saying Safari does not have it's share of problems but the biggest problems because of which it sells 1+ K compared to 3+ K units of scorpio are
1. Almost 1 lakh costlier per variant on road
2. A five seater with two ornamental seats.

[tsk1979]

I also think the leasing company claim is exaggerated. The lease is usually for 4 years, the warranty+extended warranty period. From what I have seen, all MUV/SUV whether it is scorpio or safari have similar cost/km expense during this period.
For example at 50K odd, I am sitting at 70p/km, excluding tires in repair costs.
Many other members, owning other vehicles have similar costs.

However, when things are out of warranty, safari parts and labor is very expensive.
I know somebody will quote price of fog lamps, but how often do we replace fog lamps?

I am not sure about how much similar jobs cost on scorpio/innova but for a vehicle used on bad roads, even if it never sees offroading, here is the ballpark expense
1. Bushes - 40K max. Sure you can drag it but thats about it. Cost approx 4000 all inclusive
2. Tie rods - 30-35K max - 3200-3300 total inclusive labor etc.,
3. Center pin bush - 60K max - 1000 rs approx

Other than that some other parts like hand primer cost close to 4000rs, and are not covered under warranty.
Around 60K many safari's need a complete suspension job(eg jk das) - cost = 12K
Clutch job costs more I think.

jkdas, who has had a trouble free ownership experience spent 30K + on his 60000kms service. Maybe leasing company is scared of this kind of expense, as many customers run 30,000kms a year easily.

I wonder if owners of other safari's or scorpios keep record of every single expense.

[ACM]

There has been a lot of Safari vs Scorpio vs Innova stuff going on in the post prior to this one.

It talks about how we TBHP'ians go by the heart rather than the head.

Actually it could be that the world goes by the heart rather than the head and maybe makes a not so great product a success. We think that the choise/promise of implied reliablity and better service that Maruti offers is a fact, and yes it is validated by some reports, but yet it is more a heart decision rather than a head decision. A head decision is based on actual experience mostly rather than perceptions.

A lot of purpoted heart decision are actually head decision.

I could say a lot in favour of the Safari, but there are other safari, vs scorpio vs innnova threads, all three sells and numbers do not quantify an absolute. Linea is a case to point. May great vehciles just have lost out on customers perceived confidence.

Also all three are not exactly catering to the same segment . Has anyone seen a Safari Taxi? What about innova and scorpio. That by itself does not make for a good or bad vehicle but decides the segment that a vehicle address addtionally.

It would be a shame to hijack this thread and covert it into a Safari bashing thread, or get into sales numbers, so lets leave that to other threads.

The Internet and online car users, are definately a slightly different and more tech savy bread from those who are not online, so that too would account for a difference in the sample that we present vs those that buy using different means of selection. Perhaps why the Skoda does quite well.

So pls lets keep the safari vs scorpio vs innova posts away for some time. All are today old last generation vechiles. Time to move on to the future for such debates.

[suman]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

I wonder if owners of other safari's or scorpios keep record of every single expense.

Yeah, that's what I wonder as well. You do & I do, but I'm yet to see a single comprehensive Scorpio or other SUV thread whereby a per km cost has been meticulously maintained.

Originally Posted by ACM

So pls lets keep the safari vs scorpio vs innova posts away for some time. All are today old last generation vechiles. Time to move on to the future for such debates.

ACM, very well said. We also had an unwritten protocol on this forum whereby we didn't jump into Ownership threads & bash a vehicle. Unfortunately, this decorum is not being followed by quite a few of our members today (though the same set would be equally touchy if someone else passed a derogatory comment in their ownership threads). Sad but true.

[himanshugoswami]

Originally Posted by suman

Yeah, that's what I wonder as well. You do & I do, but I'm yet to see a single comprehensive Scorpio or other SUV thread whereby a per km cost has been meticulously maintained.

.

goes to show that Safari owners are a unique (eccentric/nutty/passionate ?) lot ..... I too had a complete list of every penny i spent on my truck, inc. fuel and lubes for the duration i had it.

[mtnrajdeep]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Really ? I see it as pure bovine manure .. Check the Swift and Scorpio thread on how many serious problems those owners encounter.
Do a search on Swift + problems in T-BHP itself.

Fact remains that my colleague had to choose a Scorpio over the Safari because of the Leasing company imposed limitations.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

jkdas, who has had a trouble free ownership experience spent 30K + on his 60000kms service. Maybe leasing company is scared of this kind of expense, as many customers run 30,000kms a year easily.

The lease terms mention that you should run not more than 24000 km per year and the lease period is 44 months. So, maybe your right Tanveer.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by mtnrajdeep

Fact remains that my colleague had to choose a Scorpio over the Safari because of the Leasing company imposed limitations.

curious to know which leasing comp. is this , We have one in our office too but that guy is more for paperwork from tax point of view. There is actually no difference between purchase and lease from owners point.

BTW If I was running a leasing company then would have chosen Safari works out better because of 2 + 2 years warranty and 5 free services till 60K km or 4 years. The service interval is 15K or 1 year so nothing goes from pocket except consumables.

Initial service costs are more in Scorpio.

[jkdas]

Originally Posted by amitk26

curious to know which leasing comp. is this , We have one in our office too but that guy is more for paperwork from tax point of view. There is actually no difference between purchase and lease from owners point.

BTW If I was running a leasing company then would have chosen Safari works out better because of 2 + 2 years warranty and 5 free services till 60K km or 4 years. The service interval is 15K or 1 year so nothing goes from pocket except consumables.

Initial service costs are more in Scorpio.

I think one can get the AMC and hence forget about paying for consumables now


And dont buy one without Extended Warranty.

jkdas, who has had a trouble free ownership experience spent 30K + on his 60000kms service. Maybe leasing company is scared of this kind of expense, as many customers run 30,000kms a year easily.

30k was coz power steering assembly went kaput when my friend drove it and he wanted to pay for it ( he didnt want to repair it). Also, I didnt have Extended Warranty which could have lowered the cost.

I might have spend 50k after my truck covered 60k including the latest bill. Phew!

I now have brand new suspension (bushes,central pin bush, tie rods, central link etc etc excluding the shocks!), almost new tyres, new clutch, new component speakers (); so my Safari is almost good as new.