[cool_dube]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

Oops, that was a big goof up. Sorry. The ex showroom price of the Safari 4x4VX in Bangalore is: 11,73,466 while it is 19,43,340 for the Fortuner, so a difference of around 7.5 lacs. Yes, a big difference.

Ex-showroom price of the VX 4x4 is INR 12,29,618 (from Tata Safari) whereas the Fortuner is 19,43,340 as you rightly mentioned. Still a difference of more than 7 lacs.

[raj_5004]

If i had the budget, i would opt for a fortuner anyday. the toyota is much more capable in every aspect.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

If i had the budget, i would opt for a fortuner anyday. the toyota is much more capable in every aspect.

Precisely my voice Raj. You see, I believe that I m currently at that stage of life where I need to buy one vehicle which would last me a lifetime(Around 15 years like lifetime imprisonment), since that is the way I look at vehicles.

Unfortunately, this, most probably would not be the case with the Scorpio/Safari etc. For example, HVK's vehicle has begun to show its age at 2.4lac kms/7 years pretty fast. So, I do not expect Hariya too, to live more than 10 years/3 lac kms at most. But I see 98' models of Pajeros and LCs on the streets of Bangalore daily and they seem to be doing just fine. In fact, someone on TBHP just bought a 99' model Pajero and the vehicle hardly shows any signs of serious ageing.

That is why the Fortuner greatly appeals to me. Sigh....

[PAVAN KADAM]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

If i had the budget, i would opt for a fortuner anyday. the toyota is much more capable in every aspect.

Why are we , if i too had a budget, i would have gone in for the latest Landrover or Rangerover's, it is much more capable than the toyotas / Mahindra's or the TATA's.

Originally Posted by suman

To be honest Doc, I wouldn't dare take a Land Rover.....or a Volvo....or an Audi....or a VW to Ladakh - I'd have sleepless nights wondering "What if....?"

There was a Red Volvo in Leh last year, transporting the likes of Kareena etc - it packed up & had to be transported back by truck; guess they couldn't even begin to figure what had gone wrong

That must be the car used while filming 3 Idiots,

I feel for Tanveer's kind of useage, the Safari Suits to the hilt. Nothing comes close right now. He would'nt agree less.

[amitk26]

OK guys after this long and informative discussion on various possibilities may I ask a noob technical question , what exactly goes wrong with tie rods on bad roads ?

I can understand that bush gets damaged / worn out but what kind of tear and wear warrants replacement of tie rod ? Or it is just that instead of breaking head on setting clearances etc workshop guys go the easy way of replacement ?

Tanveer If you have any picture that will help here.

[tsk1979]

The ball joints and the tie rods start getting play. At a certain point the play gets so much that the already vague steering gets even vaguer.
Most people continue at this stage, and till the tie rods go "totally shot", as in alignment starts getting out every 2-3000kms, they do not replace. I replace all components, when they are supposed to be replaced. i.e. when the play becomes too much.
On mountain roads, this is a big problem, and compromises the handling.
Also, around the ball joint area there are some rubber bushing kind of material, even that gets completely torn.
I am now contemplating about sourcing teflon bushes for the vehicle. I do not have any idea about who fits and makes teflon bushes, and where should I get it done.

[theMAG]

Why do the ball joints and tierods wear away this quickly on the Safari? Excess weight/poor design or both ?

[tsk1979]

I have no idea. I had my first replacement around 15K, when one tie rod was replaced. It was covered under warranty.
Now after 35K the left tie rod, which had done 50K had a lot of play.
The other one, done 35K, did not have as much play, but still it was there.
Therefore it was better to replace both under warranty.
Normally tie rods should last around 60K.
I guess doing lots of himalayan trips means that I use the steering mechanism a lot more than others.
Therefore, the center pin bush also went out early, and in other safari's it lasts around 60K kms.

Regarding design issue, I am not sure if its true or not, I was told by somebody that the "export" or "petrol safari's" have slightly wider track, and the tie rod is optimized for that track width. Due to this reason, those safari's have tie rods lasting 100,000kms but the normal ones go kaput around 50-60K.

More than the tie rods, its the bushes which are an issue. They are simple low quality weak rubber bushes, and start going bad after 15-20K kms of usage. but normally users push them on for 50K till they completely give away.

[bantejas]

How about a hardtop gypsy with soft suspensions + power steering? Chota mooh badi baat, but I guess, it is a proven vehicle and you won't get a lot of problems. I know that it is not a SUV per say. Just a thought.

[mercedised]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Normally tie rods should last around 60K.

My Safari's Tie Rods are not replaced till the date, and the mileage clocked is 2,05000L KMs. There is a play in the steering, but it's not undrivable, still.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by bantejas

How about a hardtop gypsy with soft suspensions + power steering? Chota mooh badi baat, but I guess, it is a proven vehicle and you won't get a lot of problems. I know that it is not a SUV per say. Just a thought.

I normally do not believe in modifying a vehicle after purchase. So if Maruti makes a gypsy with 700kms range, soft suspension and a power steering with AC, its perfect

Originally Posted by mercedised

My Safari's Tie Rods are not replaced till the date, and the mileage clocked is 2,05000L KMs. There is a play in the steering, but it's not undrivable, still.

wow! Yours is a petrol safari I think? As I mentioned, this is the wider track used in export models, and tie rods are supposed to last a lot more!
But 200,000kms are incredible!
What about suspension, have the shock absorbers and dampers ever been changed?

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by mercedised

...the mileage clocked is 2,05000L KMs.

LOL. That's 20,50,00,00,000 km (or 20.5 billion km).

[bantejas]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

I normally do not believe in modifying a vehicle after purchase. So if Maruti makes a gypsy with 700kms range, soft suspension and a power steering with AC, its perfect

Changing the tires to A/T too is a mod I guess, isn't it? But well, I thought of it since you go to the himalayas at the drop of a hat. For guys here at tbhp going to Himalayas it'll be like: "did you spot tanveer" kinda thing ?

The suspension change shouldn't be a problem I guess. Don't the Maruti chaps have an alternate suspension kit for gypsy? I meant as their own kit..

Thar has not been tested fully and it will be only after an year or so (after it's launch) we will actually get to know the vehicle. Any other SUV like Fortuner can be taken but I am not sure if I'd do that with the amount of money spent on it (At least at this point of time). Endy suffers with bad suspension. I remember sitting in one of my friend's car and thought that the safari's suspension (the rear one I am talking about) was much better.

Tejas

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

wow! Yours is a petrol safari I think? As I mentioned, this is the wider track used in export models, and tie rods are supposed to last a lot more!
But 200,000kms are incredible!
What about suspension, have the shock absorbers and dampers ever been changed?

It is TCIC Safari not petrol ( know this from the ownership thread) , Also IMHO Safari EXi ( petrol) has exactly same suspension and body as other Safaris.

I think the difference lies in your Himalayan and desert trip which looks more grueling ( at-least seeing the pictures) then recreational OTRs.
May be offroaders will burn me on stake for saying this so let me make a disclaimer that is is just an arm chair analysis based on observations from safety of my PC.
Here are the reasons for my belief.

1. Recreational weekend OTRs which people call abuse involves crawling under 10km /hr and lasts few KM on the dirt track. May be track itself is more daunting.
In your travels lets assume that the travel lasts for 10 -15 hours daily at 40 -60 km/hr on bad roads coupled with real OTR scenarios for couple of hour per day .

So in one single day suspension sees more number of actuation then any OTR will ever see and your one journey of 10 days will be far punishing then full year of OTRs.

2. Any mechanical part has certain duty cycle , Even in most grueling OTR this duty cycle will not be met. May be the force exerted on ball joints and bushes will be more then a Himalayan tour but as long as this force is below the maximum tolerance part will not break , Where as if there is constant actuation with force much below the snapping point the part will be fatigued and wear out.

[tsk1979]

Amit, your analysis may be correct, but what I cannot fathom is why the suspension related component replacement in the Indica was at similar intervals to the safari when she was doing himalayan trips.
Being a Ladder on Frame chasis SUV, I expected the Safari to be more durable.
Regarding constant abuse, remember, except for the metro cities, most cities have very bad roads, and cars do that terrain frequently.
Moreover, taxi drivers in ladakh(innova/qualis) do same terrains for 3-4 months in a year. I make maybe 4-5 trips in a year.
I am sure they do not see those many suspension jobs. Even Safari's doing city duty require center pin greasing frequently, otherwise the squeeking and khat sounds start coming(which hastens bush wear and tear).

My first bush related troubles started showing up much before my first ladakh trip. I had done just one rajasthan trip(involving 10kms driving on sandy trails and dunes), rest on the best roads in the country, and a couple of puny himalayan trips, done in not so tough terrains.

when a mfr sells a "SUV" it has to be designed in a way that it can take more abuse than multi utility vehicles, but with the safari this definitely does not appear to be the case. A part of it has to do with the weight.
With two people and assorted luggage our white elephant weighs whopping 2450kgs, and this means more wear and tear for tires, bushes, tie rods, steering bushes as well as the drive train.