[asr245]

Here's a comparison of fastest laps from 2010 and 2012. Bahrain configuration changed since and Malaysian GP was partially wet this year, so maybe this comparison would make more sense later in the season.

2010:
Formula 1

2012:
http://www.formula1.com/results/seas...test_laps.html

Originally Posted by polopm

What is the take away for the manufactures now, other than producing trouble free engines ??? Zilch !

What more should manufacturers want? Manufacturers came in only to push costs up and then left when they could no longer do so. They stay only till it makes sense to their business.

Originally Posted by polopm

Lets go back to the old days , make cars look nicer. Heck, lets bring back refueling too. Let men be men. Amen.

Does that meant MotoGP is not driven by men? No refuelling, no tyre stops, high speeds, little downforce. Overtaking happens on track and not in the pits. That's the way it should be.

[go-pg]

I agree with Michael. In fact its not about managing tires anymore. Its 'nursing'. I think the tires need to last a little bit more. Harder tyres with less grip would challenge the drivers and would also not shred and create marbles.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by asr245

In 80s and 90s, there was far less downforce, much more powerful engines and much more racing. 2000s onwards too much focus was put on downforce which spoilt racing. Pirelli's introduced these tyres to make racing exciting again (compared to the borefest that was the 2nd half of 2000s). And I say they have done a good job at that. I enjoy it.

Great! Its always good if you enjoy it. For me its as artificial as the DRS and Pirelli is doing an ill job at that!

It might make sense if I call it Formula1 Entertainment

Other way to do it is to cut downforce and get wider tracks (wide racing lines).

In 2011, Hamilton lost to his crapiness rather than Pirelli's. The number of incidents he had far exceeded expectations from a WC. And like I said before, driver's earning multi-million $$ but can't drive within the limits of the car (and tyres)?? They need to be some place else.

What next!? F1 cars shod with slicks on a wet track and let the drivers prove why they get paid in multi-million $$

I kind of understand what FOM, FIA & FOTA together has acheived now!

Originally Posted by asr245

Here's a comparison of fastest laps from 2010 and 2012. Bahrain configuration changed since and Malaysian GP was partially wet this year, so maybe this comparison would make more sense later in the season.

2010:
Formula 1

2012:
Formula 1

When I say drop off between lap times from Qualifying & Race day... its the Q3 time vs Fastest lap on Sunday. Look at the trend from 2009 - 2012. You will be surprised!

What more should manufacturers want? Manufacturers came in only to push costs up and then left when they could no longer do so. They stay only till it makes sense to their business.

Formula1 is business. We wont have an embarassment in the form of HRT on the grid otherwise! It was good when it was a Constructor's sport when F1 had most manufacturers fighting it on the grid. Now its just a branding sport.

[jraj]

I kind of agree with anachronix.

When I sit to watch the race,I would like to see the driver's pushing their cars to the limit.The kind we saw in French GP 2004,when Brawn and MS pulled out a 4 stop strategy to defeat Renault and Alonso.With these Pirelli's I dont think we will get to see any driver setting up Delta timings for 22 straight laps.

Its more like a lottery now.No one really knows how their car will react to the track on a given day with their tyres and everyone is playing it safe.

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by asr245

For me, this season it's been Alonso. MS is an old man now who has trouble keeping his team-mate behind. He lucked into points in Bahrain and he's started whining about tyres. Never heard that before, not even in the 2005 season when you had qualify and race on a single set of tyres.

I dont think you're following the Mercedes team battle as closely as you should. Schumacher has had an edge over Nico in races since mid season 2011. The only reason he has been behind in the standings is because he's had more reliability and pit stop issues than his teammate.

And about your claim of him whining, Nico Rosberg, Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button have all complained about the Pirellis, about them going off too quickly, or limiting the performance of their cars. Are these all whiners as well, and maybe "too old" as well ? Get a grip !

Originally Posted by asr245

Glory days? Did he drive in the turbo era? For me those were the glory days.

Times have changed and if he can't adapt that means he's too old and should retire. Champions adapt and he was very adept at that. I guess, not any more.

The fact that he is either faster or within 0.3 seconds of one of the quickest drivers in F1 in the same car is not exactly a sign of him "not adapting". I think you're trying to mix issues here. You're trying to say Schumacher is making these comments because he is not able to adapt. Its hardly the case : He's able to drive these cars pretty easily and also keep up with the rest of the field. What he is complaining about is precisely this : That drivers who like to push the limits of their car are not being allowed to due to the tyres.
Let me put that in bold :

The F1 drivers of today are driving well within their capacity, which is not what F1 should be about.

Originally Posted by asr245

In 80s and 90s, there was far less downforce, much more powerful engines and much more racing. 2000s onwards too much focus was put on downforce which spoilt racing. Pirelli's introduced these tyres to make racing exciting again (compared to the borefest that was the 2nd half of 2000s). And I say they have done a good job at that. I enjoy it.

Other way to do it is to cut downforce and get wider tracks (wide racing lines).

You didnt get the point here. The racing is exciting allright, but the tyres have become the primary limiting factor of car performance.

So say, if Mclaren's fastest possible lap is a 1:30 (with normal tyres), and Sauber's fastest possible is a 1:32(with normal tyres), the tyres are limiting both these cars' performance in races such that both have to drive laps at 1:32. Which makes no sense at all. It makes for close racing because now even the mediocre teams get to compete with the top, yes, but its artificial. Its not F1 because the racing is artificially induced by a tyre.

The engineers dont get adequately rewarded for toiling day and night to bring that 0.1 second improvement in lap time since the tyres are anyway going to make their car go slower.

I'm all for close racing but not at the cost of making it an artificial show. Pirelli is on the right track with degradation rates IMO, but the tyre should in no way hinder car performance to level out the field. This is what Schumacher is hinting at, and I think its a valid point.

[asr245]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Great! Its always good if you enjoy it. For me its as artificial as the DRS and Pirelli is doing an ill job at that!

It might make sense if I call it Formula1 Entertainment

It has to be entertaining for people else there would be no big name sponsors, far less money. While I would like to see driver's on the edge of the limit but what I want more is it to be fun - wheel to wheel action, overtaking on track - not in the pits. It used to be that way few decades ago - top speeds were higher, downforce was far less and a whole lot more wheel to wheel action.

I am not sure if you have seen races from 80s, early 90s but if not please try and watch some. You will see how boring the races are today. I will partially agree that Pirelli's are creating artificial "fun" factor in the race but wouldn't call it DRS.

Originally Posted by anachronix

What next!? F1 cars shod with slicks on a wet track and let the drivers prove why they get paid in multi-million $$

There's a difference - safety. I am sure you can see that.

And btw, I think that's how Rubens Barichello won his first F1 GP. While others pitted to move to inters, he stayed out on slicks and won his 1st GP (he started 18th or something).

Originally Posted by anachronix

When I say drop off between lap times from Qualifying & Race day... its the Q3 time vs Fastest lap on Sunday. Look at the trend from 2009 - 2012. You will be surprised!

In 2009, refuelling was allowed. That is why I took 2010. For a fair comparison, only difference should be the tyres (apart from development aspects of the car). And as far as I remember, in 2009, they qualified with race fuel (top 10 at least) and today they don't AFAIK. If that's correct, there will be a bigger time difference in pole laps and fastest laps today than in 2009.

Originally Posted by anachronix

Formula1 is business. We wont have an embarassment in the form of HRT on the grid otherwise! It was good when it was a Constructor's sport when F1 had most manufacturers fighting it on the grid. Now its just a branding sport.

Constructor's come and go at will. They are not in it because of passion. Only for advertisement. Even if it's a business, you need people who are passionate about it (people like Sir Frank Williams/Patrick head, Peter Sauber maybe even Ron Dennis). Such people won't leave the sport till they can get a budget to go racing. On the other side of the scale are Honda/Toyota/BMW - all of whom were against budget cuts and didn't even know when the floor beneath them disappeared. From what I know (read), same thing happened to WRC. From many independent teams to many manufacturers to just a few of them.

Manufacturers should stick do doing what they do best - make engines. Leave the rest to the passionate folks.

If you disagree on this, I think we will never see eye to eye on how F1 should be.

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

I dont think you're following the Mercedes team battle as closely as you should. Schumacher has had an edge over Nico in races since mid season 2011. The only reason he has been behind in the standings is because he's had more reliability and pit stop issues than his teammate.

And about your claim of him whining, Nico Rosberg, Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button have all complained about the Pirellis, about them going off too quickly, or limiting the performance of their cars. Are these all whiners as well, and maybe "too old" as well ? Get a grip !

Tone down. Want a discussion? Learn to discuss!

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

The fact that he is either faster or within 0.3 seconds of one of the quickest drivers in F1 in the same car is not exactly a sign of him "not adapting". I think you're trying to mix issues here. You're trying to say Schumacher is making these comments because he is not able to adapt. Its hardly the case : He's able to drive these cars pretty easily and also keep up with the rest of the field. What he is complaining about is precisely this : That drivers who like to push the limits of their car are not being allowed to due to the tyres.

Are you a Schumi fan? Yes? Then you are already compromised. For me, he's having trouble beating his team-mate (who btw, still has a lot to prove) and he should just retire.

And I am not a Schumi hater - I supported him during his Ferrari days and was excited to see him come back. But it's been a disappointment ever since.

Kimi has made a much better impression in 4 races than MS has in 2+ seasons.

[good.car-ma]

Every sport adapts and changes over time. I guess DRS and KERS in F1 are just that. Like how batsmen in cricket have developed switch hits and scoops shots - something that Bradman would never have imagined.

I guess Schumacher's complaint is borne out of frustration that Merc GP has the straightline speed but still cant get him a podium/win and the one chance he had in China so far, he missed out.

In my opinion, when refuelling, car setup, pit-timing etc. is acceptable as strategy, tyre wear being one of these elements should not be a problem. Let drivers and teams learn to adapt! It is part of F1 and if it really is a complaint, more people will voice their opinion. Besides, its the driver's choice whether to nurse tyres for 30 laps or push like crazy for 15 lap stints and make an extra stop. If you are conservative, don't blame the tyres for not suiting you.

Like Paul Hembrey mentioned - sad to see such comments from Michael when things aren't going his way

[asr245]

Originally Posted by good.car-ma

Every sport adapts and changes over time. I guess DRS and KERS in F1 are just that. Like how batsmen in cricket have developed switch hits and scoops shots - something that Bradman would never have imagined.

I guess Schumacher's complaint is borne out of frustration that Merc GP has the straightline speed but still cant get him a podium/win and the one chance he had in China so far, he missed out.

In my opinion, when refuelling, car setup, pit-timing etc. is acceptable as strategy, tyre wear being one of these elements should not be a problem. Let drivers and teams learn to adapt! It is part of F1 and if it really is a complaint, more people will voice their opinion. Besides, its the driver's choice whether to nurse tyres for 30 laps or push like crazy for 15 lap stints and make an extra stop. If you are conservative, don't blame the tyres for not suiting you.

Like Paul Hembrey mentioned - sad to see such comments from Michael when things aren't going his way

Thank you for that. I was getting a bit tired of being the only one on this side of the fence.

[go-pg]

good.car-ma good post. I agree with you but the problem here is that the tyres are becoming a major player in today's results which is really not the right balance.

Michael is correct too but its not fair to blame the tyres now. The teams had testing before the season to give feedback to Pirelli. The rules are the same for every team, so i dont think they should complain.

Either ways, its good for the fans and there would always be a group of fans who would like to see things different. I complained in 2010 that the tires lasted too long and now i complain about tires not lasting long enough :P.

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by asr245

I am not sure if you have seen races from 80s, early 90s but if not please try and watch some. You will see how boring the races are today. I will partially agree that Pirelli's are creating artificial "fun" factor in the race but wouldn't call it DRS.

I'm sure you havent followed races of that era (80s and early 90s) at all. Most of the races in the 80s and early 90s were processional, because the more powerful and / or faster cars pulled away in races and left the slower cars in their wake. There would generally be one or two teams that dominated the season and smoked the grid. More than half of the grid at many races would retire with reliability issues due to the fact that teams were trying to build more powerful turbos, engines, brakes etc which inevitably resulted in cars breaking down left, right and centre. Not to mention the fact that cars would crash at crazy speeds and cause injuries and deaths often. Dont get me started about active suspension and the like which would make F1 cars of today look like stone age cars in comparison.

As a result, the costs of running racing teams in that era spiralled out of control and would have resulted in a quick death of F1 if things continued that way.

Golden era ? I doubt it highly.

Originally Posted by asr245

Tone down. Want a discussion? Learn to discuss!

Thats a bit rich coming from you.

I am not sure you implying that a 7X WDC with 20+ years of experience is whining when he makes a valid concern is really a sign of good discussion.

Here is another "whiner". Martin Brundle, yes he raced in your so called golden era as well. So I think he ticks the right boxes for you :
Reflections on Bahrain | Features & Experts | Sky Sports Formula 1

Originally Posted by asr245

Are you a Schumi fan? Yes? Then you are already compromised.

Why ?

Originally Posted by asr245

For me, he's having trouble beating his team-mate (who btw, still has a lot to prove) and he should just retire.

Thats because you're not following the races or the battle between the Mercedes drivers closely enough. He's having trouble beating his teammate is not the same as him finding it hard to keep up (which is what you implied earlier). Schumacher is quite clearly matching and often beating Rosberg for race pace at the ripe old age of 43 which in itself is a major achievement.


Plus, I fail to understand why this whole "Schumacher is struggling" has to picture in to the discussion at all. Its only because you have an inherent agenda of trying to paint him as a whiner so you find reasons for his comments which are very valid, especially for a man of his experience and stature. Schumacher is not the type of racer who looks for excuses a la Barrichello, and in fact he is asking for the tyres to make it harder for himself and the drivers, because its too easy now to drive within the limits of his car. Why does this not get through to you ??

Originally Posted by asr245

And I am not a Schumi hater - I supported him during his Ferrari days and was excited to see him come back. But it's been a disappointment ever since.

Your posts suggest otherwise.

Originally Posted by asr245

Kimi has made a much better impression in 4 races than MS has in 2+ seasons.

Apples and oranges

[good.car-ma]

PuntoMania, like i said, the sport keeps changing. Fans and drivers alike will react differently. When TC was banned there were drivers that suffered and those that flourished. Similarly with refuelling, tyre-stop banning etc.

At the moment Schumacher is hitting out at Pirelli (personally i feel its a result of his frustration with current results) while others aren't. When has something he said not been taken out of context. So relax. If most drivers really are unhappy, more people will start speaking up.

As for now FOM has made the choice that Pirelli's artificial spicing up of races is required for the sport. If enough people within the sport or responses in their annual fan survey indicate otherwise I am sure we will see a return to more durable tyres.

Just to stir up a bit of controversy maybe Schumi is frustrated because he misses Bridgestone's special treatment read through paras 17 to 22 BBC Sport - Bahrain GP 2012: Gary Anderson on Kimi Raikkonen's display

[Hatari]

McLaren claim that they were clocking a second faster on the Fri practice long runs than they did in the race. Clearly management/setup is the big issue, less to do with individual driving style.

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by good.car-ma

PuntoMania, like i said, the sport keeps changing. Fans and drivers alike will react differently. When TC was banned there were drivers that suffered and those that flourished. Similarly with refuelling, tyre-stop banning etc.

At the moment Schumacher is hitting out at Pirelli (personally i feel its a result of his frustration with current results) while others aren't. When has something he said not been taken out of context. So relax. If most drivers really are unhappy, more people will start speaking up.

As for now FOM has made the choice that Pirelli's artificial spicing up of races is required for the sport. If enough people within the sport or responses in their annual fan survey indicate otherwise I am sure we will see a return to more durable tyres.

Just to stir up a bit of controversy maybe Schumi is frustrated because he misses Bridgestone's special treatment read through paras 17 to 22 BBC Sport - Bahrain GP 2012: Gary Anderson on Kimi Raikkonen's display

-After the Chinese GP, which Nico Rosberg won, he said he wasnt pushing his car at all
-Sometime last year, Fernando Alonso said something along the lines of "if you really want more artificial racing, put wet weather tyres on cars in a dry race"
-Lewis Hamilton has constantly been complaining that he cannot push his car without worrying about tyre degradation
-Kimi Raikkonen, after last race said, he had one opportunity to challenge for the lead which he misjudged, after this his tyres were gone. One opportunity ? Seriously, if a driver is getting just one shot at taking a position because he's afraid for his tyres, then this is not racing.

Is this what we really want to see ? From memory some of the best races I have ever seen are which I can immediately recollect are :

Hungary 1998 - MS's 'qualifying lap' race
Imola 2005 / 2006 - Two titanic battles between Alonso and Schumacher
Suzuka 2005, Kimi's brilliant charge through the field
Spa 1995 / 98 / 04 / 08/ 09 etc
Suzuka 2000 - The all out war between Schumacher and Hakkinen
Turkey 2006 / 2008

..and many more

All of these races involved drivers going hell for leather inside their cars, going as fast as their car would allow them to go, making memories for us racing fans with their special performances.

This is simply not possible today. Today a driver has to just tippy toe around the track hoping that his tyres hold on to their pace more than his rivals and then overtake them. I dont think we understand the implications of all of this today. We have probably the best collection of racing talent the F1 world has ever seen in this grid, and its all going to waste because the Pirellis are not allowing drivers to express themselves.

[asr245]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

I'm sure you havent followed races of that era (80s and early 90s) at all. Most of the races in the 80s and early 90s were processional

And races in 2000s were not? Except that back then some cars were much faster than others while now (or a few years ago - Abu Dabhi 2010 especially comes to mind) faster cars can't overtake because of "dirty air" which, for me, makes it even boring.

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

As a result, the costs of running racing teams in that era spiralled out of control and would have resulted in a quick death of F1 if things continued that way.

Thank god they saved it! Err, they didn't Toyota/Honda/BMW came spent billions, killed the smaller independents and left.

Golden era ? I doubt it highly.

Thats a bit rich coming from you.

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

I am not sure you implying that a 7X WDC with 20+ years of experience is whining when he makes a valid concern is really a sign of good discussion.

He has had tyre trouble before. I remember seeing him nursing his car/tyres to victory before. It seems those skills (maybe reflexes) have left him and that's he's whining. It's not as if he's the only one disadvantaged by that.

Infact the only thing I have read about Pirelli is that drop-off in performance after optimum number of laps is much much more than Bridgestones. Which means penalty of making a mistake is higher. I equate it to having walls in street circuits (like Monaco) as compared to run-off areas in closed circuits. Penalty will be much higher in Monaco. So, don't make that mistake.

Why does this not get through to you?

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Why ?

As a fan you can't see him being criticized or accept that he's overdue on retirement - unless he can prove me wrong i.e. beat Rosberg nice and proper or just beat him. (Although having followed Rosberg since his early days in Williams, I am still to be convinced that he's a world beater)

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Thats because you're not following the races or the battle between the Mercedes drivers closely enough. He's having trouble beating his teammate is not the same as him finding it hard to keep up (which is what you implied earlier). Schumacher is quite clearly matching and often beating Rosberg for race pace at the ripe old age of 43 which in itself is a major achievement.

You assume too much.

When he beats him over an entire season, I will change my opinion. I will then make a call to sack Rosberg as I am convinced MS at 43 is not what he was say even in 2006. Even Massa was quite close to MS in the latter half of 2006 (except when it was wet).

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Plus, I fail to understand why this whole "Schumacher is struggling" has to picture in to the discussion at all.

For me MS, a 7xWDC, not being able to beat his team-mate is struggling. If instead it was Massa or RB, I would have said they are evenly matched. Maybe I have higher expectations from him than you have. Infact, I even read an article which mentioned Ross Brawn having said something to the tune of "MS is not same as he was before - which does not mean he's not fast". Not my words and neither do I have the link to that article - so you can assume I fabricated it.

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Its only because you have an inherent agenda of trying to paint him as a whiner

Maybe I do. I don't consider him as good as he used to be and hence calling for his retirement.

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Apples and oranges

Who's the apple and who's the orange?

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Imola 2005 / 2006 - Two titanic battles between Alonso and Schumacher

Funny you mention these races - in both these races there were tyre wear problems for the leader (Alonso in 2005, MS in 2006). Infact, in 2006, MS was "nursing" his tyres and pulled a 1.5sec faster lap once Alonso pitted. It was a Titanic battle literally - high on expectations, low on delivery.

On the same lines, remember Monaco 2011? An epic battle for the lead was brewing when a safety car period followed by a decision to allow tyre change destroyed it. It was a procession there after - not a race.

[DevilsCry]

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Schumacher was happy with Pirelli tyres during winter testing. He complimented them. So, ...