[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

I think Jaguar is forgetting its roots. They want to sell only upmarket EVs? That sounds like they have forgotten the value for money yet soulful cars they were known to make until the 90s. They should not have skipped a generation and then complained about sales numbers. I feel they ought to have discontinued the XF, released another XJ since it was long overdue, but positioned it just above the XF since value for money is literally what their brand used to be all about. The XE also deserved to be released with a fresh design and not last gen’s design. Nobody wants to pay more and more for 4cylinder motors and unreliability what makes them think people will pay further more for an unreliable EV from them? People used to buy Jaguars because they looked good, performed good and did not compete with the German trio in terms of pricing.

I am not sure why you think Jaguars forgot its roots? It has always been in pretty much an upmarket brand. The first exception being the X series, which was Ford Mondeo country, from which it borrowed quite a few parts. (But not as much as many people believe).

Jaguar, in my opinion, never aimed for the mass/middle segment. You can argue model by model with which German Brand/model it competed against, but it was never the smallest in the line up.

When it comes to pricing, varies quite a bit country to country. My 2003 XJR cost USD 75000 new in the USA, but close to Euro 145000 in the Netherlands, which puts it way above say a BMW series 5.

The X in its various variants was a disaster, because it was positioned as a Jaguar for the middle segment, but it did not look like a Jaguar at all. And your typical Jaguar potential owner doesn’t want to be associated with cars out of that segment. It suffered terribly from the Ford Mondeo stigma. Really when you showed up in a Jaguar X, people would immediately call you out for not being able to afford a real Jaguar.

Jaguar owners can be a bit of snobs! Comes from wearing too much tweed! The worst thing they want to be seen as, is having poor taste in cars and not sufficient funds to buy a proper one.

Jaguars for decades were also known for being unreliable. Whereas that was probably a bit undeserved. It meant they were amongst the fastest depreciation cars ever! My XJR depreciated from new at USD 75.000 in 2003 to USD 10000 in 2009 on EBay where I bought it unseen. And mine was in absolute mint condition, with a full Jaguar dealer service history and decent mileage on the clock. Average selling price in 2009 on EBay for a 2002/3 XJR was around USD 5-6000! That is more than 90% depreciation in 6 years!

Jaguars have always appealed to a rather small part of the public out there. And only a small part of the public could afford them. Here in Europe they never did very well as company cars either. The lease companies were very wary of them. High maintenance and astronomical depreciation are not what lease companies are looking for.

I have no idea if Jaguar is going to be successful with their new line up. Contrary to many of our members I have close to zero insights in car segments and markets of the future. But I do believe these days it is either all or nothing. Either you go for something very exclusive, high prices, high margin, exclusive and relatively low volume. Or you go for some boring, look like the next car, affordable for Joe average, high sales volumes and decent margins.

I don’t think there is much room for middle ground or for mixing the two under one roof. We will see. I will most likely in 10-12 years buy some of these new Jaguar EVs on EBay. If it’s true to its brand values from the past it will cost next to nothing due to gigantic depreciation! I look forward to that. Check it out on page 8923 of my “fiddling with cars” thread at that time!

Jeroen

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I am not sure why you think Jaguars forgot its roots? It has always been in pretty much an upmarket brand.

Never said they were not upmarket but I believe they were more of an entry into the premium category. Certainly not at the top of it like they imagine themselves to be right now.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

When it comes to pricing, varies quite a bit country to country. My 2003 XJR cost USD 75000 new in the USA, but close to Euro 145000 in the Netherlands, which puts it way above say a BMW 5 series

Above a 5 series but not a 7 series you see. I’d wager your XJR still cost less than a V8/V12 performance oriented Merc or Beemer. All their successful models from the Mark 2 to the XK, E-Type and even early XJ’s were always cheaper than their German/Italian competition. They always punched above their price. Compare the cost of an E-Type to other sports cars available at the time or an XJS V12 to a 1990s SL or a 2003 XJ to an S-Class they have always been priced atleast 20 percent lower. Not saying that they weren’t still expensive just not as expensive. In my eyes all their past successful models have offered value for money in the premium segment. Sort of like how the Chinese have with Volvo and their BYDs except with more soul, purpose and prestige.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Above a 5 series but not a 7 series you see. I’d wager your XJR still cost less than a V8/V12 performance oriented Merc or Beemer.

Not really. The V8 was cheaper than the Jaguar V8 in 2003.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Not really. The V8 was cheaper than the Jaguar V8 in 2003.

Attachment 2629078

Wasn’t the XJR the range topping variant though? I would compare the XJR to the 760 in terms of how much car you get but sure if you feel it compares nicely only against the 745/50 then I suppose Jags were always just as expensive?

Let’s just say we differ in opinion but I am strongly of the belief that atleast historically, they are meant to offer value for money over the rest of their ‘premium’ European rivals.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Wasn’t the XJR the range topping variant though? I would compare the XJR to the 760 in terms of how much car you get but sure if you feel it compares nicely only against the 745/50 then I suppose Jags were always just as expensive?

Let’s just say we differ in opinion but I am strongly of the belief that atleast historically, they are meant to offer value for money over the rest of their ‘premium’ European rivals.

It all depends how you want to compare. Or maybe what you find comparable .

The E-type at the time was more expensive than just about anything comparable on the market at the time. Except for Aston Martin and Ferrari. But then again, I don’t think Aston Martin or Ferrari can be compared to Jaguar.

Although they shared some similarities in those days, woefully unreliable and expensive to maintain. The DB7 suffered from some Ford syndrome too. Lots of parts came from Ford. Including the switch gear in the cabin. So you would have a hugely expensive and supposedly exclusive Aston Martin, but would also have a Ford Mondeo indicator stalk! I cancelled my Aston Martin pre-order at the time when I found out.

People have been comparing the X308 XJR with the DB7 for decades, but for me they are totally different cars, catering for a very different clientele. Price, horsepower and so on, only matters so much. Comparing cars on rational parameters alone has never been for me.

Jeroen

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

It all depends how you want to compare. Or maybe what you find comparable .

Definitely.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

People have been comparing the X308 XJR with the DB7 for decades

To each his own but just to be clear, I was not comparing a 2 seater sports car/GT like the DB7 to a 4 door performance saloon like the XJR. I was simply comparing the XJR to any range topping S-Class/7 series of its time and I think that’s a fair if not at least arguable comparison to make. I think a more apt comparison to make between the DB7 and any Jag would be against the XKR and even that was significantly less expensive than the Aston.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

The E-type at the time was more expensive than just about anything comparable on the market at the time. Except for Aston Martin and Ferrari. But then again, I don’t think Aston Martin or Ferrari can’t be compared to Jaguar.

Nope. It was cheaper than a lot of other cars as well. It was a whole lot cheaper than the 911 when it was released in 1963, it was less than half the cost of a Mercedes 300SL, and it was even 33 percent cheaper than a Corvette. If the performance figures are anything to go by, the E-Type was an absolute bargain back when it was launched.

I mean no offense perhaps words like ‘value for money’ or ‘a bargain’ don’t align with your perception of the brand but they are some of the values that fascinated me about old Jags. It is what gained the brand its popularity. A Jag never seemed out of place amongst Astons, Porsches, Mercs and Bentleys while at the same time it was aspirational and somewhat attainable for many in comparison. From pub owners to actors to cocaine dealers to aristocracy. Just about affordable for the self made man to buy yet not something the Queen would be embarrassed to be seen in. A sort of people’s luxury brand if you will.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

It was a whole lot cheaper than the 911 when it was released in 1963, it was less than half the cost of a Mercedes 300SL, and it was even 33 percent cheaper than a Corvette. If the performance figures are anything to go by, the E-Type was an absolute bargain back when it was launched.

As I mentioned before, it’s all about what you compare of find comparable. I would never compare an E type with a Corvette, or a 300L or a 911. Those cars have absolutely nothing in common as far as I’m concerned, other than having two seats. But so did the Alfa Romeo Spider.

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

I mean no offense perhaps words like ‘value for money’ or ‘a bargain’ don’t align with your perception of the brand but they are some of the values that fascinated me about old Jags.. Just about affordable for the self made man to buy yet not something the Queen would be embarrassed to be seen in. A sort of people’s luxury brand if you will.

I have said this before many times, it is ridiculous to be feel offended on a public forum by somebody you don’t know. Especially on a topic as futile as cars. Which, when all is said and done, are just tin boxes. So don’t worry about offending me. It rarely, if ever happens. And when it does it will be on a topic that matters to me deeply. Cars don’t, just a hobby.

The words, affordable and people’s luxury brand are not something the average Jaguar owner would appreciate I would think.

Personally, I am not a fan of the E-type. Probably the most overrated car in the classic car scene these days.

Irrespective, it is about time Jaguar finds its mojo. As Austin Powers would say! Probably the most famous E-type driver out there. Certainly the funniest!

Jeroen