[supermax]

A BMW owner in Sweden was shocked to receive a cost estimate for battery replacement on his pre-owned 2017-model BMW 225 XE; the battery was deemed to have been exposed to abnormal/unusually high wear-and-tear, which results in zero insurance payout. The cost for the battery replacement? SEK 80000 or INR 6.35L.

A pre-owned car

The 2017 car was bought pre-owned, by Anders, and his wife, in 2020, and they were very happy with it, and hoped to be able to use it for a good while. The car had done over 1L kilometers, but that's hardly a huge thing on Swedish roads. The car had been serviced only at BMW approved service stations, and within the correct service intervals, and was in great shape, but for the problem with the hybrid battery.

The problem with the hybrid battery

Within a few months of purchasing the car, Anders observed that 7.6 kWh battery with an NEDC claimed mileage of 41 km was barely managing 15 km, even when fully charged.
Anders wasn't overly concerned, as his service station had told him that the battery was covered under an 8 years warranty, and he'd also filed a claim with his insurance provider, under the engine/major component replacement header.

Initial response from BMW dealership in Sweden

The BMW dealership was courteous and prompt, and accepted the car for checks, and got in touch with BWM Germany, who seemed rather interested in the case. Upon BMW Germany's insistance, they requested Anders to allow them to retain the car for three more days for additional testing.

The verdict from BMW

Much to Anders' consternation, it was pointed out to him that while the battery did have an 8 year warranty, the warranty also had a mileage clause which limited the warranty to 100000 km (1L km), which the car had already exceeded. They further told him that the battery exhibited signs of abnormally high wear and tear, which negated the possibility of claiming damages from the insurance provider. The solution was a replacement of the hybrid battery, the cost of which would be SEK 80000 (6.35L INR) and Anders would have to bear the entire cost from his own pocket!

Anders' reaction

Anders was obviously shocked at the turn of events, and wrote to the country head of BMW in Sweden, and even sent in a reminder, all to no avail. After another few months of radio silence from BMW, Anders got in touch with Auto, Motor, and Sport magazine in Sweden, the editor of which was immediately interested in Anders' case.

The motor magazine gets involved

With the editor of the motor magazine personally following up the case with his contacts, BMW issued a response noting that they felt that the battery in question shouldn't require replacement during the life of the car, and that the issue was likely a result of defective cell modules in the battery, and that BMW would stand for the cost of the battery replacement.

The aftermath

The battery on Anders' 225 XE was indeed replaced without charge (pun not intended!), thanks to BMW, but the incident showed that private individuals often get the short end of the stick when it comes to warranty claims. The involvement of popular media forced BMW to take prompt action, to avoid negative publicity.

Additional points of interest

The battery was technically out of warranty, with the car having clocked more than 1L km mileage, but BMW went ahead with the replacement without cost while admitting that the battery likely always had a defective module. Clearly this admission of guilt and free battery replacement wouldn't have happened had it not been for the involvement of the media. How would it be, in countries like India, where warranty policies are deliberately vague, and warranties don't mention the exact amount of degradation in capacity a battery must suffer, before it would be eligible to be replaced under warranty? With both hybrids and EVs getting more popular and prevalent in India, and due to the rather limited time the technology has been present in India for, only when the issues start cropping up will people get to know if warranty claims are a simple matter, or something they have to spend considerable time and potentially money, litigating for. This also raises the point of the need to do thorough homework before buying a pre-owned EV or hybrid vehicle. Given the cost of batteries, buying a pre-owned EV or hybrid is nowhere as simple as buying a pre-owned ICE vehicle. Go through the warranty fine print thoroughly before going for that deal that seems too good to be true.


Source (in Swedish):
https://www.mestmotor.se/automotorsp...-pa-80-000-kr/

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by supermax

The aftermath

The battery on Anders' 225 XE was indeed replaced without charge (pun not intended!), thanks to BMW, but the incident showed that private individuals often get the short end of the stick when it comes to warranty claims. The involvement of popular media forced BMW to take prompt action, to avoid negative publicity.

That’s the sole reason people share their "bad tastes" with dealers/OEM's/etc on T-Bhp forums, in hope to find addressal to their grievances. And it's not at all surprisng that they get the resolution in-time

[supermax]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

That’s the sole reason people share their "bad tastes" with dealers/OEM's/etc on T-Bhp forums, in hope to find addressal to their grievances. And it's not at all surprisng that they get the resolution in-time

Things are generally more straight-forward here, and I'm surprised that some arm-twisting was needed to get the necessary action. I've already heard of a case of genuine warranty claim cases of battery replacement on Tata EVs getting shooed away, from a friend, so things could get real ugly in the years to come, with users being left in the lurch. And if this is the case with Tata, what of Byd or MG or others?

[svsantosh]

Originally Posted by supermax

They further told him that the battery exhibited signs of abnormally high wear and tear

Ok, for beginners what is high wear and tear in a a Lithium Ion battery? There are a million articles on Internet to talk about wear & tear of batteries, please google it.

But the concept of Wear & Tear in a Battery is for the 12v auxillary battery (used to start the ICE engine, lights, audio, etc) which is only controlled by the alternator and some resistors largely.

In the case of a Hybrid there is a supposedly a really advanced computer to micro manage the battery, car speed, ICE engine & GB all within micro-second accuracy. Is BMW openly saying their Hybrid system is not capable of taking care of the health of the battery.

I have travelled a lot in hybrid cars and have come to understand that the hybrid batteries discharge below 55Kmph speed and ICE takes over above that speed almost seamlessly. For the BMW claim to be scientifically true, it would mean that the car was driven almost steady at 0Kmph - 50Kmph for the entire 1,00,000Kms (60,000 Miles, for the USA folks) and the battery kept charging-discharging continuously. Even with a 50Km being the smallest range for the hybrid battery, it translates to a 2000 charge-discharge cycle for the battery.

Is BMW saying their hybrid car battery wont even last 2000 charge-discharge cycles? Give it a margin of error / factor of safety - 50%, wont it even last 3000 cycles?

I would gasp like my new daily fav PeppaPig - WaaaaaaW!

Thats some seriously under-engineered Hybrid battery!

[supermax]

Originally Posted by svsantosh

Ok, for beginners what is high wear and tear in a a Lithium Ion battery? There are a million articles on Internet to talk about wear & tear of batteries, please google it.

But the concept of Wear & Tear in a Battery is for the 12v auxillary battery (used to start the ICE engine, lights, audio, etc) which is only controlled by the alternator and some resistors largely.

In the case of a Hybrid there is a supposedly a really advanced computer to micro manage the battery, car speed, ICE engine & GB all within micro-second accuracy. Is BMW openly saying their Hybrid system is not capable of taking care of the health of the battery.

I have travelled a lot in hybrid cars and have come to understand that the hybrid batteries discharge below 55Kmph speed and ICE takes over above that speed almost seamlessly. For the BMW claim to be scientifically true, it would mean that the car was driven almost steady at 0Kmph - 50Kmph for the entire 1,00,000Kms (60,000 Miles, for the USA folks) and the battery kept charging-discharging continuously. Even with a 50Km being the smallest range for the hybrid battery, it translates to a 2000 charge-discharge cycle for the battery.

Is BMW saying their hybrid car battery wont even last 2000 charge-discharge cycles? Give it a margin of error / factor of safety - 50%, wont it even last 3000 cycles?

I would gasp like my new daily fav PeppaPig - WaaaaaaW!

Thats some seriously under-engineered Hybrid battery!

BMW did initially claim that the battery malfunctioned due to 'abnormally high wear and tear', so yes, it's peppa pig time. That said, your math is off. This is not a mild-hybrid, but a plugin hybrid, and an older generation one at that, so the main charge discharge cycles are when you actually charged it from a wall socket. And the real world mileage on even a new battery was never even close to the claimed 41 km. I'm guessing that in top shape, it gave around 30-35 km range, but in this case, that had dwindled down to 15 km. How effective regen was on that model is information not available from the article.

The thing that scares me really is that EVs and hybrids have been here way longer than in India, and there's a greater degree of awareness on what to expect in terms of life-cycle and length of life. In India though, we have people jumping onto the EV bandwagon, without much to base their expectations on. How good is the battery in Tata EVs as opposed to say MG? Nobody knows. Is the battery quality on the MG models the same as that of the same MG models in Europe? Hard to say. How many cycles should the batteries last in Indian conditions? How easy will it be to seek a replacement under the warranty terms? Are the warranty terms clear enough? and so on are the questions that come to the mind, and there are few answers outside of the propaganda and hype.

[svsantosh]

Originally Posted by supermax

...and an older generation one at that...

But I am still surprised they would claim that on a Lithium Ion battery. If it were on the NiMh 1st Gen Civics I can totally relate. But on a 2017 BMW is expensively shocking.

I know I may be comparing apples to chalk piece, but I get to ride in some really old Toyota Prius taxis that are 2014, 2015 and done about 500,000Kms or so and still on OEM batteries.

[supermax]

Originally Posted by svsantosh

But I am still surprised they would claim that on a Lithium Ion battery. If it were on the NiMh 1st Gen Civics I can totally relate. But on a 2017 BMW is expensively shocking.

I know I may be comparing apples to chalk piece, but I get to ride in some really old Toyota Prius taxis that are 2014, 2015 and done about 500,000Kms or so and still on OEM batteries.

The real take home is that no company can be trusted to accept the blame, whether the warranty is expired or not. When a company like BMW can't be expected to be honest, how can we blindly trust Tata, MG, and who not? With ICE vehicles, you could really get all maintenance carried out wherever you wished, but with EVs and hybrids, they call the shots. We are not longer buying a car, but subscribing to a service. The risks and liabilities are all on our side, and the benefits and profits are all on the car makers side now.

[Kkumar]

Hi friends, after going through the above discussion I think it’s better lease a car than own it because in the long run leasing amounts to less headaches.

[supermax]

Originally Posted by Kkumar

Hi friends, after going through the above discussion I think it’s better lease a car than own it because in the long run leasing amounts to less headaches.

This is very much true for EVs, at least in Sweden. While it's more expensive to lease than to own outright, one has zero anxiety over depreciation and eventual issues with expensive battery replacement. Leasing also allows you to enjoy the latest and greatest of vehicles, and allows you to change your vehicle every three years, as opposed to the 7-10 years that you need to own a vehicle for, for it to make economic sense.

[maximus_fiat]

Originally Posted by Kkumar

Hi friends, after going through the above discussion I think it’s better lease a car than own it because in the long run leasing amounts to less headaches.

Leasing a vehicle in India is quite expensive as compared to western world. In order for it to be successful, the mindset has to change. We still consider owning something as much better proposition than renting something.

[itwasntme]

Even the luxury mild hybrids like the BMWs have an eye-wateringly expensive Lithium ion battery which costs upwards of 90K. It does last 7+ years though.

Like this one: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-...ml#post5550459 (My BMW M340i LCI | A case study in YOLO | Ownership Review)

The pain point will come mainly for a used car buyer who would not have budgeted such spends.

[amalji]

During one of my visits to Toyota service centers, I was enquiring about the service cost of different vehicles and one vehicle which had crazy expensive spare parts was the Vellfire. The SA told me that the battery costs 36 Lakhs INR! I couldn't believe it. Even Camry hybrid battery which has a very similar engine/EV combination costs only around 3.5 lakhs INR. So this was a surprise.
Can someone confirm if this is true ?