[karanddd]

I rented a Jeep Grand Wagoneer with some friends for a trip and personally I thought it was terrible to drive. It's just a huge boat. And you sit up high and the overhangs are long, which means you live constantly with the anxiety in parking lots and driveways that some small child or animal could be in front, outside your field of view. I have a renewed appreciation for small, low cars after this experience. Also there's simply the fact that in a collision with a pedestrian or bicyclist or motorcyclist, a large SUV or truck with its tall hood will cause the victim to be crushed underneath, while with a low car with a hood that angles up, there's a chance of being thrown up or above the car, which greatly increases your chances of survival. As someone who enjoys non-driving ways of getting around also, I'd want as few trucks as possible on the road.

[Drivaholic@2727]

If the SUV's and Pickups get a bit heavier they can be written off as business expenses thus avoiding taxes. Because at that point they are considered a heavy vehicle like Semi's etc. According to section 179 of the IRS any vehicle exceeding 6000 pounds but not more than 14000 pounds are eligible for a tax deduction. I think pickup trucks are just 875 pounds short of being eligible for this. This is just for people who have buisnesses though, for people who dont, mass advertising has been a key factor for people to buy these trucks and SUV's.

[THE-U-]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Like the case with most things, Americans have been sold much much more than they need.

The fundamental question is who decides what Americans or Indians or Africans need. I buy what I want and need with my own hard earned money from what is legally out there as long as I can afford it. Why can't these people who spew this "sanctimonious garbage" (I like this term very much, thank you to the person who came up with it) and remove air from parked SUV tires because they don't like SUVs. I get that the video posted by OP is their marketing garbage to convert people to their view.

Originally Posted by Cresterk

They managed to successfully advertise massive pick-up trucks and SUVs as being safer so even people who don't really need it like soccer moms etc started buying it and driving it carelessly. Now everyone else is also under pressure to buy these huge trucks because these things have very poor visibility from inside and if it crashes into your normal car, you will be seriously injured or dead.

Soccer moms and pickup trucks? This is the first time I've heard of this combination. The soccer fields near my house are full of cars, minivans and SUVs. Pickup trucks are few and far between. Minivans and Soccer Moms used to be synonyms not even SUVs.

Originally Posted by digitalnirvana

I'm going to leave just a few things here because as they say, worth a thousand words etcetera.

The data you posted are from consumer reports and I simply don't trust them any more. They have been against body on frame SUVs and pick ups as long as I can remember. They praised BMW when the X5 was introduced as a more "sensible" approach. They are also an organization run by trial lawyers whose business is to make money suing manufacturers. So, they are out there to drum up all sorts of support for their cause although they will tell you they are "non-profit". Many of their surveys have severe self selection bias too. Almost all of the pick up trucks I have seen in my area are routinely used to transport cargo and equipment.

In any case, it is not like consumer reports paid money to these people to buy their trucks. Vehicles evolve based on what people will buy them. For the record, I am never going to buy a pick up truck - crew cab or no crew cab because that's not what I will use. A couple of my friends do have pick up trucks (they have a construction business and transport materials) and I used their help at least a couple of times last year to transport large items.

Originally Posted by karanddd

I rented a Jeep Grand Wagoneer with some friends for a trip and personally I thought it was terrible to drive. It's just a huge boat. And you sit up high and the overhangs are long, which means you live constantly with the anxiety in parking lots and driveways that some small child or animal could be in front, outside your field of view. I have a renewed appreciation for small, low cars after this experience. Also there's simply the fact that in a collision with a pedestrian or bicyclist or motorcyclist, a large SUV or truck with its tall hood will cause the victim to be crushed underneath, while with a low car with a hood that angles up, there's a chance of being thrown up or above the car, which greatly increases your chances of survival. As someone who enjoys non-driving ways of getting around also, I'd want as few trucks as possible on the road.

You know it is a free country - you don't have to buy what you don't like or want. But, you shouldn't have to tell other people what they should or should not buy citing some made up stories. Some may find Grand Waggoneers to be the best of SUVs. Good thing is we have choices. Most cars now come with automatic braking and collision avoidance with several airbags. Many large SUVs including the LC300 have automatic braking for pedestrians, so all of this suppositions are rendered moot. All cars have gotten much safer in general.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by THE-U-

Most everyone who owns a pick up truck has jobs they do.

I doubt that very much and the statistics shown in digitalnirvana’s post show a far more realistic image, most likely

Let me share my own experience here. From 2009 to 2012 we lived in Kansas City. I worked at the Sprint Campus in Overland Park. Which when it was build at the time was the largest campus in the USA. Even for today’s standard it is certainly not small, with 30.000 people working there. Overland Park and neigboughing Leawood are amongst the most wealthy/prosperious/ affluent suburbs in the USA with median family income well above $100K.

At the Sprint campus, the median income was even considerably higher! One day I made a bet with some colleagues about the number of pickups in the many many garages (everybody and I mean everybody drove to the campus. I had said that at least 1 in 4 cars was a pickup. I was wrong, it was almost 1:3!!

These were not people whom needed a pickup for their work, or to carry stuf. Very few people in and around Kansas city own boats, because there are only a few small lakes around and the Missouri is not navigable. So nobody needs to tow anything either.

I you google “why do Americans love their pickups” you will a billion/zillion hits all telling you more or less the same story.

The pick up is symbolic for freedom, independence, hard work, getting on in life and so on. Originally used by primarily farmers it sort of embodies the spirit of the early settlers. Has this imagery been enhanced/promoted by manufacturers? Undoubtedly, and not just the car manufacturers. Not sure if the Marlboro man is known in India?

Look at this from the 1970s. That is how they promoted smoking!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb0wYZl5xPo

The American love all this kind of stuff. They all want to be hugely successful, earn pots of money. And when they do they buy the most expensive jeans, cowboy boots, a checkered shirt, an original Stetson and of course multiple pick up trucks in the driveway!

Has commerce/adverts/PR had an influence on all this? No doubt it has. At the same time, I do believe that Americans (I am over simplifying and generalising here, I know) still have a bit of the old settlers DNA in them. Yes, they live in airconditioned houses and drive an airconditioned truck or pick up. But it is to easy/casual to blame that on PR/commercial only. In all honesty, my wife and I always found it very refreshing.

Originally Posted by THE-U-

The distances even in suburbia in the US are a lot more than in any of the cities in Europe. All these Eurocentric folks miss this important fact. Do people generally drive a 1000 miles in day in Europe to see family?
The bicycle riders in cities like Amsterdam and The Hague are a menace. if you snooze and wander into their lane when walking, you will be run over by most people - no mercy at that time. .

On average American drive more annually than Europeans. But within Europe there are several countries where they clock similar mileage (Germany, Finland, UK. Even tiny the Netherlands comes close to the American average. Because we might not have family living that far away, but European holiday several times a year all over Europe and driving and towing a caravan is for many the mode of transportation.

Remarkably, when you look at average commute distance, USA is not in the top league either.

Originally Posted by DicKy

In his ideal world, he would like to take a train to another city with his bicycle on tow. Then cycle to the nearest IKEA.

In a number of European countries you don’t need to this. You take public transport, e.g. train and when you arrive at your destination, there will be a bicycle waiting for you. Very convenient, very cheap.

Me, I take my Jeep to the Ikea. Try and lifting those flat packed pieces of furniture!!

Originally Posted by amitoj

T

Common public in US has been duped by the marketing ads of the automobile manufacturers who see easy profit in selling pick ups and SUVs that people don't really need.

When I moved to US, I wanted to buy a crew cab pickup truck but better sense prevailed and I dodged that bullet. Phew!

Sorry to hear, I think you lost out on huge opportunity. We have lived and worked in quite a number of different countries around the world. I don’t think we adapted everything in every country we found ourselves. But if you’re a petrolhead and find yourself living in the USA, I suggest making the most of it car wise. For all its good and bad, the USA is still petrol head haven. Try out as many different cars as you can.

Driving these massive crew pickup truck is just a great experience!!

Originally Posted by AKTransAM

I'm a single guy, but I own a 4 door truck because I like to go offroading.

Good for you, enjoy them to the max!

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Like the case with most things, Americans have been sold much much more than they need.

Well, this is true, but then again, the same can be said about many mostly western countries. If you live the good life (whatever that might mean for you), many of us end up with stuff you don’t strictly need. But I will admit, there is nothing wrong perse, with stuff you don’t need. It would be very difficult to argue I need four classic cars and private pilot license. I could very well lead a perfectly happy life without them. But I whilst I have all these nice things, I am enjoying them very much!

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

This would make the big body on frame trucks and SUVs more expensive, but there should also be tax exemption for serious business - people working in construction, landscaping, maintenance etc. Those salaried people buying SUVs for regular city use / pleasure should pay higher prices compared to owners of cars.

Here in the Netherlands we have so called grey-registration. Those are typically vans in which you can fit rear seats. But if you leave them out and also the windows, you pay less tax on purchase.

Originally Posted by AKTransAM

That's a very slippery slope. Everyone pays road taxes, registration costs etc. And gasoline is also paid for equally. If someone can afford the insanely high costs of purchasing and owning a larger car/suv/truck, and they want to, so be it (as long as they don't literally get a subsidy from the rest of society).

I think you underestimate how, relatively speaking, little cars cost in the USA for a good percentage of the people with decent disposable income.

Originally Posted by karanddd

I rented a Jeep Grand Wagoneer with some friends for a trip and personally I thought it was terrible to drive. It's just a huge boat. And you sit up high and the overhangs are long, which means you live constantly with the anxiety in parking lots and driveways that some small child or animal could be in front, outside your field of view. I have a renewed appreciation for small, low cars after this experience. Also there's simply the fact that in a collision with a pedestrian or bicyclist or motorcyclist, a large SUV or truck with its tall hood will cause the victim to be crushed underneath, while with a low car with a hood that angles up, there's a chance of being thrown up or above the car, which greatly increases your chances of survival. As someone who enjoys non-driving ways of getting around also, I'd want as few trucks as possible on the road.

I am not sure if you rented your Jeep in the USA or somewhere else. If it was in the USA the size of the thing really doesn’t matter. Roads and parking lots are all huge to accommodate these mammoth sized cars.

Jeroen

[digitalnirvana]

Originally Posted by THE-U-

The data you posted are from consumer reports and I simply don't trust them any more.

What? No! I linked to consumer reports but the same test was done by NBC and a local TV network WTHR. A quick Google search away.

The other infographics about length of the cab vs length of the bed are from publicly available information. I could trawl through the F150 Wikipedia page and create it myself.

You are free to trust someone and not trust someone else.

But that shouldn't equate to discrediting the source of information, because quite frankly, that's disingenuous.

[TDCi4Life]

Saw the video's catchphrase. Read a few comments here. That is all I needed to know. Loads of such junk content on You Tube floating around.

[ds.raikkonen]

The F-series is a legend, perhaps the oldest car brand of all time? And not just their trucks, Ford offer so many cargo area variants of another legend-the Transit.

But can we compare the Regular cab variant with the Super/Crew cab variants in terms of bed length? Does not seem to be a fair comparison.

Now add the F-150 Lightning to the mix and the GVW goes up higher still!

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Sorry to hear, I think you lost out on huge opportunity. We have lived and worked in quite a number of different countries around the world. I don’t think we adapted everything in every country we found ourselves. But if you’re a petrolhead and find yourself living in the USA, I suggest making the most of it car wise. For all its good and bad, the USA is still petrol head haven. Try out as many different cars as you can.

Driving these massive crew pickup truck is just a great experience!!

I haven't owned a pickup but I have driven them on a few occasions when I needed to rent one from U-Haul. I remember the experience being underwhelming. Same goes for SUVs too. I am much happier puttering around in my 4 door sedan or the 2-door coupe.

Yes, people are free to buy what they want, and yes all marketing campaigns aim to create demand where none exists. That's why such videos are important as they bring in the socially responsible aspect to an individual's decision making process.

A haven for petrol heads is turning into a death trap for everyone outside of a vehicle.



https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/10/...bshell-charts/

Originally Posted by AKTransAM

That's a very slippery slope. Everyone pays road taxes, registration costs etc. And gasoline is also paid for equally. If someone can afford the insanely high costs of purchasing and owning a larger car/suv/truck, and they want to, so be it (as long as they don't literally get a subsidy from the rest of society).

There's already a gas guzzler tax on cars that dont meet certain fuel efficiency standards. The Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat carries this tax. So, imposing a tax based on weight is not that far off, given that the non tailpipe emissions are directly correlated to the weight, even for electric vehicles.

[neeravnaik]

Classic capitalism at work. Once market has been fully penetrated you grow by increasing ticket size by supersizing. You see it in so many categories in US be it Coffee, Colas, Houses, TVs, Phones, Burgers, etc. You keep the consumer edging to higher consumption per purchase by clever use of marketing.

In US people almost feel proud that they can never have enough. In average US restaurant the portion they would serve you would almost be double of what you could have. You encourage unlimited fill ups of beverages in restaurants to encourage large bottle purchases for home.

Niche products like Huge pickup trucks are sold as THE choice to go to feel manly. Nowadays probably it is an almost a patriotic statement for many. Same also goes for performance cars and the amount of power they pack. Not many would fully use that much power but it feels good to have that much power under the hood.

Of course the ultimate category is guns where military grade machine guns are the norm and sold as hunting or home protection weapons.

In almost all cases except few people who need this is a lifestyle choice. That is generally the trend in US. From the very early days it was the land of plenty and will remain like that.

[THE-U-]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I doubt that very much and the statistics shown in digitalnirvana’s post show a far more realistic image, most likely ...

On average American drive more annually than Europeans. But within Europe there are several countries where they clock similar mileage (Germany, Finland, UK. Even tiny the Netherlands comes close to the American average. Because we might not have family living that far away, but European holiday several times a year all over Europe and driving and towing a caravan is for many the mode of transportation.

Remarkably, when you look at average commute distance, USA is not in the top league either.

Jeroen

Where I live, I count one pick up truck in our neighborhood of more than 100 houses. Of course we have a lot of SUVs, minivans and expensive luxury sedans. Most people who come in pick up trucks are there to do some work or the other. This is one of the richest counties in the USA.

Americans might be driving longer per trip since that aren't many holidays in the US which was my original intent on why bigger cars are popular in the US. The country is much bigger too - while going to the West Coast from the East Coast and vice versa cannot be comfortably done on road (I haven't come across anyone who did that with family), folks do longer drives (1000+ miles) to see family. This was my personal experience and also the experience of others I have seen around me.

Originally Posted by digitalnirvana

But that shouldn't equate to discrediting the source of information, because quite frankly, that's disingenuous.

Look, I don't even care how the size has evolved - but as you see from the post referenced below, CR's portrayal is biased. If a product is successful, the manufacturer is going to make more of it.

I take issue with the way CR portrays a number of things (including their reliability rating), but come to think of it, even that is besides the point. I buy what I want to buy and I use the car or truck for what I want to use it for. I don't want the government to regulate what I am doing with it - there are already enough regulations to improve safety and technology is helping to accomplish this. Reminds me of the discussions in the speed limit in India thread.

Originally Posted by ds.raikkonen

But can we compare the Regular cab variant with the Super/Crew cab variants in terms of bed length? Does not seem to be a fair comparison.

Thank you. It is not like only F150s with shorter beds are killing pedestrians and it is bad to use such a representation to drive their biases. I personally knew two bicyclists that got hit by sedans - in both cases it was the bicyclist's fault. One died and another survived.

Originally Posted by amitoj

I am much happier puttering around in my 4 door sedan or the 2-door coupe.

Yes, people are free to buy what they want, and yes all marketing campaigns aim to create demand where none exists. That's why such videos are important as they bring in the socially responsible aspect to an individual's decision making process.

A haven for petrol heads is turning into a death trap for everyone outside of a vehicle.

Your profile states you are from the granite state that gave us Daniel Webster and has a motto "Live Free or Die". A flawed product is never going to be successful whatever the marketing efforts may be. There are tons of examples in the US automotive industry.

Even taking the data you posted at face value, remember, one point doth not a trend make. There are many compounding factors that need to be taken into consideration even here. Also, the bicycle death rates are going to increase in the US because local governments are putting bicycle lanes on roads with speed limits in excess of 40 mph. Mixed (speed wise) traffic always leads to problems.

You are free to have your sedan and I will have my Cadillac Escalade Premium Luxury Platinum. I know lawyers supported by CR will try to take my house if I hit anyone anyway. And I might even buy carbon credits and use E85 fuel lest you blame me for putting out more CO2 in to the atmosphere.

"Socially Responsibility" is a slippery slope. It is not absolute by any means. There are a lot of examples of that from the COVID-19 experience. In all cases, one has to be very careful and critical of loud mouths and the data they present. A preacher preaching on the issue of "greed" constantly, probably has an issue with greed. These days, I am more than a little suspicious of many of these so called "non-profits" - they have no morals but use fake data to achieve what they want to achieve. At least the industry sells some products. These guys mostly peddle stupid ideas in the name of social responsibility without any relationship to reality.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by neeravnaik

.

In US people almost feel proud that they can never have enough. In average US restaurant the portion they would serve you would almost be double of what you could have. You encourage unlimited fill ups of beverages in restaurants to encourage large bottle purchases for home.
.

True, however that food does not go to waste. Every restaurant/cafe/dinner in the USA will provide doggy bags. So all the food that has not been eaten will be put into styrofoam containers so you can take it home.

This happens in all restaurants, from the very small cafe, to the classiest high end restaurants.

Jeroen

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by THE-U-

Your profile states you are from the granite state that gave us Daniel Webster and has a motto "Live Free or Die". A flawed product is never going to be successful whatever the marketing efforts may be. There are tons of examples in the US automotive industry.

You are confusing a product with an industry. History is rife with examples of industries duping people until faced with unprecedent outcry from the public and irrefutable data (tobacco and sugar, to name a few). The truck and SUV industry is at the start of that phase right now. Off topic, but alcohol industry is also in the very early stages of such a state.

Originally Posted by THE-U-

Even taking the data you posted at face value, remember, one point doth not a trend make.

Not sure how you can call data collected over a 30+ period a point and not a trend.
Cyclist fatalities are rising because of many factors, least of which is bicycle lanes. Most of the factors relate to increasing vehicle size, decreasing driving abilities and increasing distractions for the drivers.

Originally Posted by THE-U-

"Socially Responsibility" is a slippery slope.

Of late I am noticing this behavior of refusing to acknowledge an alternate, hard to digest view, specially one that involves thinking about others, by calling it a "slippery slope". I guess it is more common in Florida where the ruling party doesnt want teachers to even talk about the possibility of non-heterosexual behaviours, because you know, its a "slippery slope".

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Every restaurant/cafe/dinner in the USA will provide doggy bags.

Most of the restaurants in US serve such unhealthy food that I'd rather throw it away than give it to my dog (if I had a dog, that is )

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by THE-U-

. This is one of the richest counties in the USA.

I see you live in Miami Florida? According to the 2020 census it’s not even in the top 100 richest counties!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States


In fact there is not a single county of Florida in the top 100! Maybe the 2023 will show different result.


Jeroen

[yash2424]

700hp, almost $200 for a full tank of gas and makes my Rolls Royce Ghost look small. I love these massive trucks and SUV's, totally impractical but a lot of fun

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by yash2424

700hp, almost $200 for a full tank of gas and makes my Rolls Royce Ghost look small. I love these massive trucks and SUV's, totally impractical but a lot of fun

Haha that thing doesnt even fit into a parking space!