[AMG Power]

Porsche, has some great EV's - some that are launched and some yet to be, but it isn't turning its back on IC engines just yet. It's tied up with Siemens to develop carbon neutral fuel that can be used by existing IC engines.As we know, the end date of the IC engine has already been announced by a few countries. But this initiative may just turn out to be good news for auto enthusiasts, if it doesn't turn out to be expensive.

The company has just announced a plan to work with Siemens Energy to create the world's first industrial-scale synthetic fuel factory.

The synthetic "e-fuel" Porsche and Siemens plan to produce will be made by using wind energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen through electrolysis - the reverse process of a hydrogen fuel cell car like the Toyota Mirai - and combining that hydrogen with carbon-dioxide filtered out of the atmosphere to create synthetic methanol. The methanol will then be converted into synthetic gasoline through a process pioneered by - and licensed from - Exxon.

Porsche and Siemens have chosen southern Chile as the location for their first e-fuel production plant, owing to the country's strong wind energy industry. The plan calls for 130,000 liters of fuel - more than 34,000 gallons - to be produced in a pilot phase by 2022, with 55 million liters - roughly 14.5 million gallons - to be produced by 2024, and ten times that to be produced by 2026.

The US alone goes through nearly 10 million barrels of gasoline every day, meaning those figures would barely make a dent, globally. Think of it more like a proof of concept; if it can be made to work in one facility, other facilities could be built to contribute to the world's synthetic gasoline supply.

Source

[Shreyans_Jain]

A PR stunt designed to grab eyeballs. The problem with gasoline or diesel isn’t its availability or extraction or distribution. It is the emissions that happen on combustion. A point so very conveniently left out here. All hydrocarbons will cause pollution on burning whether they are naturally occurring or processed or concocted in a lab.

[AMG Power]

Quoting from the link:

How is synthetic fuel any different than gasoline? It's carbon-neutral, meaning the carbon emitted from burning it is only equal to the carbon sequestered in producing it.

[nakul0888]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

A PR stunt designed to grab eyeballs. The problem with gasoline or diesel isn’t its availability or extraction or distribution. It is the emissions that happen on combustion. A point so very conveniently left out here. All hydrocarbons will cause pollution on burning whether they are naturally occurring or processed or concocted in a lab.

Don’t you think building an entire factory would be a stretch too far for a PR stunt?
If this can truly replace conventional petrol there maybe hope yet for sports cars to live on as a niche market like how electric cars are today while all the bread and butter cars go full electric.

[GTO]

One thing I have learnt after seeing how EVs are taking off, self-driving cars in California, Ghosn escaping from Japan & Tata / Mahindra building 5-star safety cars is....never say never. If Porsche is developing a carbon-neutral fuel, all I can say is "bring it on". As much as I love powerful EVs, I love my powerful combustion engines too .

Still, I don't think it solves the "city" pollution problem. The fuel might be carbon neutral, yet it will pollute cities. 1 million cars in Bombay ruin its air, but 1 million EVs won't.

[speedmiester]

All the better if this holds true. But I am more interested to understand this statement/process in detail

The methanol will then be converted into synthetic gasoline through a process pioneered by - and licensed from - Exxon.

Prima Facie, this means Exxon had known about this synthetic fuel process for some time now, but hasn't marketed it as it would eat into it's oil business.

[sv97]

Originally Posted by speedmiester

Prima Facie, this means Exxon had known about this synthetic fuel process for some time now, but hasn't marketed it as it would eat into it's oil business.

If what you are saying is true then soon Exxon might become the next Kodak.

And like GTO Sir always says if you don't cannibalise yourself someone else would come and do it for you so hope that doesn't happen to Exxon.

[SKC-auto]

One more thing which I came to know recently was anything which burns at high temperature causes NOx.

So even if you burn carbon neutral e-fuel or green hydrogen produced from renewables, the carcinogenic NOx is emitted from ICE engine running at high temperature.

[landcruiser123]

It'd be very difficult to get the energy density of petroleum in any synthetic fuel unless they put a lot of energy into the process. There'd be a net energy loss. The same was said about Hydrogen production, but it looks like we may be closer than ever to an efficient process to product Hydrogen. BEVs could be a fad 2020-2040 and replaced with FCEVs.


This "fuel" could be something restricted to sports cars and would be taxed heavily to ensure that the cars are toys, not commute vehicles. We must remember that petroleum is formed by tons of pressure and fluctuations in temperatures over millions of years in this earth.

Originally Posted by GTO

Tata / Mahindra building 5-star safety cars is....never say never.

Not surprising at all. Tata & Mahindra may be brands from a develloping countries, but have access to all tools & which car makers in developed countries have. I'm sure their bigger challenge in closing the gap is due to lack of skilled engineers and lower economies of scale. Big corporations & upper-middle class in developing countries have most of the technological resources which their counterparts in the USA or EU have. Skilled engineers for corporations are in short supply in India.

Think of it - a person in India have the same PC & smartphone which their cousin has in the USA. What they do with it is determines the outcome. People with the will to do well produce great results(of course, the right environment plays a small part too). Mahindra & Tata has committed to safety. Maruti hasn't. Can Maruti produce safe cars? Absolutely. If the government makes good crash safety ratings mandatory, Maruti will have 4 & 5* rated cars ready in a few months.

[raghu.bramha]

Let's not get our hopes high until we see a credible proof. They said there will be flying cars in 2020, didn't they!!! 2020 though surprised us in a very different way.

Of all the alternate fuels or energy sources being talked about, I am most swayed by hydrogen fuel cells, although hydrogen fuel cell cars are still not viable. But considering that hydrogen option is the most politically correct option, focus could have been on developing that instead of investing time and research somewhere else. Pity, we came so close yet still so far away.

[ZenMaster]

I think some are confused by the term "e-fuel" as it projects the image of the stuff we fill from petrol bunks. What they are making is Methanol( i.e. Alcohol) based fuel. And guess where "Methanol" (as is) is already in use? - RACING.

Methanol is widely used as Racing fuel.

Ethanol(another alocohol) is already used in buses in some countries etc and is what we usually refer to as "BIOFUEL" or is also used as an additive to fossilfuel in what americans call "FlexFuel". Ethanol is mostly made from Soy, Corn etc.

Methanol can also be made from some bio materials but currently its mostly made from hydrocarbons and fossil fuels itself(Mainly Natural Gas).

The "fuel" per se is probably something on the lines of flex fuel. Its just the extravagant long winded way in which they make it that is new(according to them). I.e. using wind energy to electrolyse water into H2 and O2 and using C02 "captured from the atmosphere"

As far as the "licensed process" from Exxon, it most probably a way to utilise the CO2 and other gases or waste products from their refining process. These are technologies that they develop through their own R&D and through funded research to help them reduce their refining emmisions and more importantly to make some more money from what was earlier considered waste products.
(Which isn't a bad thing)

As far as "Carbon neutral" is concerned, it just means they will use wind energy for producing the electricity needed instead of thermal power plants.

I don't think its a miracle fuel. But I think its rather a way of producing more fuel from waste products(of refining or industrial processes) without extracting more from the earth and using Wind Mills for producing the H2 + O2 and powering the CO2 capturing plants or whatever. This can then be marketted as "sustainable" "green" "carbon-neutral" special car-juice for a higher cost.

[DudeWithaFiat]

Originally Posted by nakul0888

Don’t you think building an entire factory would be a stretch too far for a PR stunt?
If this can truly replace conventional petrol there maybe hope yet for sports cars to live on as a niche market like how electric cars are today while all the bread and butter cars go full electric.

May not be a PR stunt, but a very stupid move. One tends to think that such big companies and top people sitting at the head of those those companies does not make stupid mistakes, but they do. The future of cars is electric. The rate at which technology is developing, an ICE car will look primitive compared to an electric car.

Race cars? There is Formula E.

[sramanat]

Originally Posted by AMG Power

Quoting from the link:

Paraphrasing the article, the carbon emitted by burning the fuel will be used to make more of that fuel making it carbon neutral.
Color me unimpressed - this seems awfully like words of a creative auditor. That said if the real numbers are in the 20-40% improvement over extracting gasoline from the ground (which I suspect it to be), and can scale, it'd be worth the effort.

[aashishnb]

Originally Posted by AMG Power

Porsche, has some great EV's - some that are launched and some yet to be, but it isn't turning its back on IC engines just yet. It's tied up with Siemens to develop carbon neutral fuel that can be used by existing IC engines.As we know, the end date of the IC engine has already been announced by a few countries. But this initiative may just turn out to be good news for auto enthusiasts, if it doesn't turn out to be expensive.

="https://carbuzz.com/news/porsche-dev...bustion-engine"]Source[/url]

Just out of curiosity, what they are trying to do is Wind Energy --> Hydrogen --> Methanol --> Fuel.
Why not just stop at Hydrogen and try to use it with a fuel cell engine.

Separately, if this is an economically viable project, it can be used to replace the entire cooking/heating/industrial energy demand.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Not surprising at all. Tata & Mahindra may be brands from a develloping countries, but have access to all tools & which car makers in developed countries have. I'm sure their bigger challenge in closing the gap is due to lack of skilled engineers and lower economies of scale. Big corporations & upper-middle class in developing countries have most of the technological resources which their counterparts in the USA or EU have. Skilled engineers for corporations are in short supply in India.

Think of it - a person in India have the same PC & smartphone which their cousin has in the USA. What they do with it is determines the outcome. People with the will to do well produce great results(of course, the right environment plays a small part too). Mahindra & Tata has committed to safety. Maruti hasn't. Can Maruti produce safe cars? Absolutely. If the government makes good crash safety ratings mandatory, Maruti will have 4 & 5* rated cars ready in a few months.

+1
Also, The engineers and the company are there to make a living. This can be done by giving what is demanded in the market. Historically (say 1-2 decades ago), in our market, cars were sold basis fuel efficiency & low cost of maintenance and needed to be light. And rightly so, given the vehicle cost vs income factor.

Besides, our highways / roads never really supported high speeds. This meant most vehicles were rarely used for very long highway drives as travel time invariably increased. Lower speeds also meant less probability of fatal accidents and therefore the lighter vehicles also were safe enough. Now, with wider highways / expressways, higher speeds, etc. there is demand for safer cars, which is being fulfilled. So demand will create the supply.

[ashwin1224]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

It is the emissions that happen on combustion. A point so very conveniently left out here. All hydrocarbons will cause pollution on burning whether they are naturally occurring or processed or concocted in a lab.

While it is true to an extent, the fossil fuel problem is bigger than that. Fossil fuels used to be on organic life forms present on the surface of the earth. At the time they were part of the carbon cycle on the surface. Over millions of years, they died, sunk to the bottom of the crust and new life forms took over the surface. These new life forms(us) are also carbon-based, there is carbon in the atmosphere, and the plants and other organic molecules are all part of the present-day carbon cycle. Nature itself is nothing but an intricate system of checks and balances. The natural world that we live in right now is tuned to the amount of carbon that was present on the surface, running through the carbon cycle. And everything was merry.

What fossil fuels did was bring carbon that was out of the carbon cycle, right back into it, at a severely rapid rate. Had this process been as gradual as the processes that created fossil fuels, the global ecosystem would develop along with it. But that did not happen, within a century we've pumped almost the entirety of fossil fuel cache back into the atmosphere.

This is where synthetic fuels shine. Sure, they'll still be giving off pollutants but these exhaust gasses will be of surface origins. Plants, which are on the surface of the planet are a part of the carbon cycle, and the natural systems in place can consume this carbon accordingly. So even though there will still be greenhouse gases, they will be consumed in the various carbon sinks like trees and micro-organisms.