[pamiboy]

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[GKR9900]

Many of the online automobile journals quote the Ingenium 2.0L diesel rated at 161bhp.
Sure the car is lighter,but come on Jag,even the Cruze makes 164bhp!!

With BMW upping their 2L unit to 190bhp and 400Nm,the race will be over even before it starts :(

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by GTO

I think the XE looks fabulous!
Everyone slammed the X-Type (and I mean, EVERYONE) because it was based on the Mondeo. Surprisingly, not too many complain about the A4 being based on the humble Jetta.

I agree, really like the XE. The Mondeo was actually a very good car when it came to handling, nothing wrong with the chassis. Not sure if many customers knew or cared. What they probably did care about is that the interior and notably the dashboard had lots of Mondeo bits. I once turned down a Aston Martin for that same reason. Had the headlight switch and the steering column stalks of a Mondeo. Come on, you cant be serious. For that sort of money, it has to be unique. You can't see the chassis, it was pretty good to start with and it can be set up to feel very different, but when you put family saloon dashboard bits in a high end car, I think you have lost the plot. Ford in those days was pretty stupid and could never figure out these silly Brits!

Jeroen

[GKR9900]

Seems like the 2.0L Ingenium diesel comes in two states of tune. A 161bhp for economy and a178bhp(430Nm torque!!) for performance lovers.

Though the torque figure is intimidating, can't really see how a 17bhp bump is going to light up an enthusiast.

Really wish Jag provided a bit more power :(

[Autolock123]

Jaguar has given out details on the power and torque figures for the Ingenium range of engines that will feature in the XE.

Base version will be powered with 2.0-litre diesel with 163PS/380Nm unit with just 99 g/km of CO2. These emissions figures are far far lower than the Audi A4 which is 112 g/km. Only Audi 1.6TDI engine which powers A1 range comes with the 99 g/km level emissions.

another version is 2.0-litre diesel that will also come in a 180PS/430Nm tune. XE will also get direct injection 2.0-litre petrol engines and a supercharged 3.0-litre V6.

Source - Economic times & Audi website
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/43507536.cms and Audi website

[Aditya]

Jaguar Land Rover is planning to assemble the XE in India.

Link to Team-BHP News Article

[GKR9900]

Really wish Jag could grow a pair of ba**s and decide to manufacture the XE in India. I know it's highly improbable, but just putting the thought out there. Jag is clearly betting heavily on the XE to propel them out of bankruptcy, with their global sales at only a fraction of the teutonic three. (The only thing going in their favor is the F-type, but that caters to a niche segment).

The new C has been priced at 41L ex-showroom for the CBU. Even when CKDs start rolling in, I doubt whether the prices will go down significantly sans discounts. 3,A4 are soon to follow with their facelifts/new models. Now that they're priced way above what a prospective entry level luxury customer is ready to pay for, the German trio have brought in other smaller models which are inferior in many ways to even a D segment sedan. But any person ready to shell out his hard-earned bucks for any of the 3 German brands atleast have a choice, albeit a less VFM one. Now bring in Jaguar with the XE. Jag has no products lower than the XE. By their convention, they price it at par or above their German rivals. The buyers in this segment are a tricky lot, atleast most of them. They're well informed as well as price conscious. IMHO the C has really upped the game in this segment. Its very hard to oversee the Merc's new-age styling, beautiful interiors, thoughtful technology in favor of the Jag's conventional ones (we still dont know how it drives though). Even if it drives as well as Jag claims it will, prospective customers are going to have a tough choice ruling the C out. Add to that the thin service network of Jags, and the appeal of a Mercedes-Benz badge, I'm pretty sure most customers will be lured to the German stable. Ofcourse, BMW and Audi are not gonna let C run away that easy. They're also going to produce updated/ entirely new products.

If Jag can somehow find a way (read:local manufacturing) to price the XE much more competitively than its rivals, I'm sure the product will fly off the shelf. Even if they dont, it will still find buyers,no problem, but it will not find as many as they would like. As they say 'desperate times require desperate measures'. With the kind of backing that Jag has got with Tata, it is possible. The Germans really dont have to take up such measures, as they are already doing good numbers. It's upto the corporate bigshots to decide whether Jag will be just another player in the segment, or will it be THE player!!

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by GKR9900

can't really see how a 17bhp bump is going to light up an enthusiast.
Really wish Jag provided a bit more power :(

Its called horses for courses GKR. Let me explain how premium diesel sedan sales work first.

The biggest (and I mean biggest) market for diesel premium sedans is Europe and nothing else comes close, they dictate how and for what purpose these cars are designed. The German trio know this market byheart especially BMW. Despite the premium pricing they outsell anything Ford, Toyota, GM etc...etc... make despite charging a premium. The 2 main factors that influence purchase is on badge snobbery and economy (incl. mpg and CO2 emissions).

Jaguar has the badge value, primarily their line up is still very premium and the F-type has really helped its credentials. It has nowhere near the customer base of the German trio but in Europe they are easily best placed among the rest, including Lexus.

Second, mpg (mileage) and CO2 emissions. Diesel executive sedans are dominated by fleet purchases which means minimal insurance and running costs. The biggest mover in the 3 series is the 316 that develops less than 120 bhp! (I would have added another couple of exclamation mark but GTO has warned me otherwise). The 161 bhp XE is targeted at the economy conscious fleet purchases which is where they will win or loose this war. The diesel Cruze is a car nobody wants here despite the higher power (and the low rev torque delivery of a dying pensioner), Chevy is shutting shop in Europe. If Jag can provide a car that is exciting enough to drive and stays within the fleet economy boundaries they have their winner. Plus the diesel game is all about low to mid rev torque, not horses.

Originally Posted by GKR9900

Really wish Jag could grow a pair of ba**s and decide to manufacture the XE in India........Jag is clearly betting heavily on the XE to propel them out of bankruptcy, with their global sales at only a fraction of the teutonic three. (The only thing going in their favor is the F-type, but that caters to a niche segment).

The new C has been priced at 41L ex-showroom for the CBU. Even when CKDs start rolling in, ........ Jag has no products lower than the XE. By their convention, they price it at par or above their German rivals. .........
If Jag can somehow find a way (read:local manufacturing) to price the XE much more competitively than its rivals, I'm sure the product will fly off the shelf. Even if they dont, it will still find buyers,no problem, but it will not find as many as they would like. As they say 'desperate times require desperate measures'. With the kind of backing that Jag has got with Tata, it is possible. The Germans really dont have to take up such measures, as they are already doing good numbers. It's upto the corporate bigshots to decide whether Jag will be just another player in the segment, or will it be THE player!!

First of all JLR is not under bankruptcy especially due to the amazing health of Land Rover models. Also Jaguar's only real volume model is the XF, in what is simply a 3 car range. JLR isnt worried and they are not going to slash prices of Jaguars trying to push sales, they dont have to. The full financial year JLR will easily cross $5 BILLION in profits!

JLR under Tata is a very very smart organization. The German trio are now fighting a volume war, they dilute their brand by targeting smaller and cheaper models now. Hatchbacks, mini SUVs, city cars, MPVs, they need this because of their size. Volumes keep them afloat now, their huge factories and workforce cant remain idle, so smaller cheaper cars are needed. Offcourse this helps customers who would like to own such a badge despite the appalling value proposition.

But this has its problems. The German trio especially VW (Audi) and Mercedes are struggling with their profit margins, big time. But to stay competitive they cant increase price and lower volumes. So they are walking a tightrope trying to make money but keep pumping the volumes.

For eg. VW's margins are barely above 3% and they are now targeting 6%. Even this is boosted by their Chinese sales and Porsche SUVs, without them it would be a scary picture for VW. Audi is supposedly earning 10% margins but there's a lot of speculation that maost of the costs are hidden under VW's balance sheets. Mercedes is also struggling at around the 4% range. Say another economic downturn in Europe or any other reason for a fall in volumes make this carmakers extremely vulnerable.

JLR's profit margins are 20% thereabouts. That is BIG by any stretch of the imagination. JLR don't play the volume game, they stick to being comparatively more exclusive and expensive.

I know as a consumer it doesn't matter, but if you are expecting Jaguar to drop the 'Made in Britain' tag and focus on whole manufacture in India and then price them cheaper then you will be disappointed. Jaguar will not try and outsell the Germans, its a poor strategy. What they can do is make more money for each car they sell, so when Mercedes shift 3 C classes Jaguar wants to be smart and make the same profit perhaps selling just one XE.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by shortbread

JLR under Tata is a very very smart organization. The German trio are now fighting a volume war, they dilute their brand by targeting smaller and cheaper models now. Hatchbacks, mini SUVs, city cars, MPVs, they need this because of their size. Volumes keep them afloat now, their huge factories and workforce cant remain idle, so smaller cheaper cars are needed. Offcourse this helps customers who would like to own such a badge despite the appalling value proposition.

But this has its problems. The German trio especially VW (Audi) and Mercedes are struggling with their profit margins, big time. But to stay competitive they cant increase price and lower volumes. So they are walking a tightrope trying to make money but keep pumping the volumes.

For eg. VW's margins are barely above 3% and they are now targeting 6%. Even this is boosted by their Chinese sales and Porsche SUVs, without them it would be a scary picture for VW. Audi is supposedly earning 10% margins but there's a lot of speculation that maost of the costs are hidden under VW's balance sheets. Mercedes is also struggling at around the 4% range. Say another economic downturn in Europe or any other reason for a fall in volumes make this carmakers extremely vulnerable.

JLR's profit margins are 20% thereabouts. That is BIG by any stretch of the imagination. JLR don't play the volume game, they stick to being comparatively more exclusive and expensive.

I know as a consumer it doesn't matter, but if you are expecting Jaguar to drop the 'Made in Britain' tag and focus on whole manufacture in India and then price them cheaper then you will be disappointed. Jaguar will not try and outsell the Germans, its a poor strategy. What they can do is make more money for each car they sell, so when Mercedes shift 3 C classes Jaguar wants to be smart and make the same profit perhaps selling just one XE.

Not sure but do you have any source for these numbers and figures. I would assume that economies of scale (and that is discounting the fact that VW as a brand is a big umbrella and part sharing is the norm than exception, so basically even more scale and sharing of R&D) would mean that there profit margins should be higher.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Not sure but do you have any source for these numbers and figures. I would assume that economies of scale (and that is discounting the fact that VW as a brand is a big umbrella and part sharing is the norm than exception, so basically even more scale and sharing of R&D) would mean that there profit margins should be higher.

Hello Extreme Torque,

Well in theory margins are very simple, earn more and spend less. VW is very good in making a lot of noise about modular platforms, platform sharing etc...etc... but their spending is ridiculous!! One its still Germany dependent and R&D in Germany is very very expensive so is the labour force. Their operations outside of Europe and China are not great. They are struggling everywhere else especially the American operations. Their last quarter margins have supposedly moved closer to the 6% mark, but wether its a consistent achievement is pending to be seen.

I work for one of the big four so as sad as it sounds I enjoy the economics of the auto industry. I did not make this up so here is the latest source:

http://www.trefis.com/stock/vlkay/ar...ars/2014-11-25

But VW has put a lot of effort in pushing some sort of good news towards the financial press, give them a few more months and we will get a clearer picture.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Hello Extreme Torque,

Well in theory margins are very simple, earn more and spend less. VW is very good in making a lot of noise about modular platforms, platform sharing etc...etc... but their spending is ridiculous!! One its still Germany dependent and R&D in Germany is very very expensive so is the labour force. Their operations outside of Europe and China are not great. They are struggling everywhere else especially the American operations. Their last quarter margins have supposedly moved closer to the 6% mark, but wether its a consistent achievement is pending to be seen.

I work for one of the big four so as sad as it sounds I enjoy the economics of the auto industry. I did not make this up so here is the latest source:

http://www.trefis.com/stock/vlkay/ar...ars/2014-11-25

But VW has put a lot of effort in pushing some sort of good news towards the financial press, give them a few more months and we will get a clearer picture.

Sorry if I sounded as being doubtful but I only wanted to take the discussion forward. Speaking of which, the R&D costs inside UK would not be cheap either and given that Jaguar has to compete with the big three from Germany and their volumes are nowhere near any of them in the executive sedan segment, I am sure their R&D costs are significant too vis a vis volumes they do. JLR is currently on roll but I think most of their profits are coming from the F-Type twins and majorly from the exceptional sales growth of Land Rover products. This is also the primary reason why they so badly wanted to be in the high volume executive sedan class currently dominated by the Germans. The automotive press does mention, although in hushed tones, that XE is either now or never for Jaguar, given the volumes it is expected to bring and the amount of capital that is invested at stake. Jaguar will also be spending more on making the XE purely on account of it being made of aluminium and yet cannot price it more than the German big three. The margins are bound to fall. Jaguar as a brand is not as much a cash cow as Land Rover is.

[GKR9900]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Its called horses for courses GKR. Let me explain how premium diesel sedan sales work first.

The biggest (and I mean biggest) market for diesel premium sedans is Europe and nothing else comes close, they dictate how and for what purpose these cars are designed. The German trio know this market byheart especially BMW. Despite the premium pricing they outsell anything Ford, Toyota, GM etc...etc... make despite charging a premium. The 2 main factors that influence purchase is on badge snobbery and economy (incl. mpg and CO2 emissions).

Jaguar has the badge value, primarily their line up is still very premium and the F-type has really helped its credentials. It has nowhere near the customer base of the German trio but in Europe they are easily best placed among the rest, including Lexus.

Second, mpg (mileage) and CO2 emissions. Diesel executive sedans are dominated by fleet purchases which means minimal insurance and running costs. The biggest mover in the 3 series is the 316 that develops less than 120 bhp! (I would have added another couple of exclamation mark but GTO has warned me otherwise). The 161 bhp XE is targeted at the economy conscious fleet purchases which is where they will win or loose this war. The diesel Cruze is a car nobody wants here despite the higher power (and the low rev torque delivery of a dying pensioner), Chevy is shutting shop in Europe. If Jag can provide a car that is exciting enough to drive and stays within the fleet economy boundaries they have their winner. Plus the diesel game is all about low to mid rev torque, not horses.

I understand the reference considering the British automobile market, but do you think it holds well with the Indian counterpart? We're an emerging market, extremely price-conscious, and still we're expected to pay around 30-40% more for a lower spec product. For example, we pay around 42-43L for a decent spec BMW 320d Sportline, while in UK we could get a BMW 335d xDrive for the same amount. I am aware of the tax structure playing a major part here, but still. My comparison with Cruze was just to highlight this point. Yeah, the technology, snob value, driving experience is at a whole new level with a Jag than a Chevy, but in our market its hard not to compare. A car set to cost north of 40L with a power output similar to one costing 18L? It's just hard for me to digest, that's all :( And in India, I dont think fleet purchases are that much of a driving force in moving the economy forward.

Originally Posted by shortbread

JLR under Tata is a very very smart organization. The German trio are now fighting a volume war, they dilute their brand by targeting smaller and cheaper models now. Hatchbacks, mini SUVs, city cars, MPVs, they need this because of their size. Volumes keep them afloat now, their huge factories and workforce cant remain idle, so smaller cheaper cars are needed. Offcourse this helps customers who would like to own such a badge despite the appalling value proposition.

But this has its problems. The German trio especially VW (Audi) and Mercedes are struggling with their profit margins, big time. But to stay competitive they cant increase price and lower volumes. So they are walking a tightrope trying to make money but keep pumping the volumes.

For eg. VW's margins are barely above 3% and they are now targeting 6%. Even this is boosted by their Chinese sales and Porsche SUVs, without them it would be a scary picture for VW. Audi is supposedly earning 10% margins but there's a lot of speculation that maost of the costs are hidden under VW's balance sheets. Mercedes is also struggling at around the 4% range. Say another economic downturn in Europe or any other reason for a fall in volumes make this carmakers extremely vulnerable.

JLR's profit margins are 20% thereabouts. That is BIG by any stretch of the imagination. JLR don't play the volume game, they stick to being comparatively more exclusive and expensive.

I am no expert in market analysis. You have clearly opened up some new areas of thought for me here. Yet I wonder, why would Jag exercise a low volume, high exclusivity strategy when everyone else seems to be after the numbers? Especially since even more exclusive brands like Porsche(with a comparable operating margin of 20%), Bentley, Lambo are now seeking more volume of sales? After all, its all business. Jags never sold in numbers as good as their Rover sisters. That is also the reason why they are introducing the XE into the sports sedan market and considering to push the C-X17 concept into production. If Jag can increase their profits selling even more cars at a lower operating margin, wouldnt that be more feasible? Are they sticking to that strategy solely in the name of preventing brand-dilution?

Originally Posted by shortbread

I know as a consumer it doesn't matter, but if you are expecting Jaguar to drop the 'Made in Britain' tag and focus on whole manufacture in India and then price them cheaper then you will be disappointed

Jag has recently decided to open up a plant in Brazil. I dont expect them to do something even remotely similar in India. It is just the enthusiast in me who feels betrayed by the way premium manufacturers turn their back on the Indian market. Even after these many years of entering into the market, gauging response, and achieving good sales here, they're reluctant to enter into production, and are happy with whatever sales they acquire with the CKD/CBU stock. Now, they can cite a number of reasons for not doing it, like immature market, sales figures not justifying such kind of investment, in India everything has takers and so forth...If these manufacturers can somehow manage to locally produce such cars here in India, wouldnt the entire luxury car-buying experience change? With locally sourced contents, everything from the cost of purchase to the cost of maintenance will go down making the decision to buy such cars financially more feasible. Wouldnt it then be a major driving force in increasing sales numbers? In the name of catering to a wider audience, rather than brand-dilution with compromised products , wouldnt it be better if they make the existing well-rounded products more achievable, by realistic pricing strategies? This might sound naive/dumb , but it's just my honest appeal to these manufacturers. I feel there's a lot of hidden potential in the Indian market that they are unaware of (or choose to ignore).

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Sorry if I sounded as being doubtful but I only wanted to take the discussion forward. Speaking of which, the R&D costs inside UK would not be cheap either and given that Jaguar has to compete with the big three from Germany..........The margins are bound to fall. Jaguar as a brand is not as much a cash cow as Land Rover is.

VW pays exceptionally high wages as their board can get pretty powerless in labour negotiations due to Lower Saxony's share holding and the 'VW law'. A very very long story but google it and you will understand. VW has a plethora of models they have developed that is never profitable, more than a 100 factories all making models that overlap each other, mass centralisation in Germany, delaying decision making and increasing inefficiency etc...etc.... Just because you make the same thing under six different brand names, with six different marketing strategies in six different factories does not give you six times the volume! If that had been the case GM wouldn't have had all this trouble. More brands rarely translate to more profit but is definitely more expense. Platform sharing must be saving a lot of money for VW, but they are blowing it elsewhere!!

The XE has a modular platform (the irony eh?!). So immediately after the XE (6 month window) there will be the XF sedan on the same platform. And the next Jag Crossover (Jag will not call it an SUV). Then there's potential on the same platform for Land Rover models. JLR had to make a XF replacement, now using the same modular aluminium platform they will create half a dozen other models including the XE. Everyone wants more volumes but the art is to balance margins and ensure incremental profitability. None of JLR's models really compete with each other, the Freelander and the Evoque are essentially the same cars but very different market propositions. On the other hand VW has too much of an overlap with Seat and Skoda, while having to make them in 3 separate factories at the very least with three times the marketing budget!!

The German big three and the way they function is a big debate in itself and I would love to discuss this on another dedicated forum because we have gone waaay off topic. But thinking of them as a template to success is very wrong, because all three breed in an environment based on tit for tat responses rather than stand their own ground.

[srishiva]

Nothing really distinguishing in the design. Competing with 3 so looks like they had 3 in their mind always while putting this together. Even Lexus were able to bring something new when they had their 1st gen IS.

[Tushar]

Jaguar revealed their rival for the Mercedes-Benz C-Class, BMW 3-Series and Audi A4 amid much fanfare in 2014. It was confirmed that the sedan would not be launched in India before 2016. However, a report by Autocar says that the Tata Motors subsidiary will launch the XE at the 2016 Delhi auto expo. A statement on Jaguar India's official site reads "Jaguar XE is available from 2016", further supporting this possibility.

Link to Team-BHP news article