[FourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

Even if Indian cars are sold in China, who will buy these when better quality products are available at similar cost?

The same people who can only afford to buy similar quality Chinese cars, but are interested in a foreign brand, will consider an India-manufactured car.

Also, I have no problem with a Chinese OEM setting up shop in India, and manufacturing vehicles here ... as long as it is just as simple for an Indian OEM to go to China and set up a manufacturing unit there.

As you may or may not know, the Chinese government prevents an international OEM from setting up it's wholly owned manufacturing plant, and compels them to find a partner who must be given a 50% or higher stake.

The Indian government has not formulated any such rules.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by FourWheelDrift

Chinese government prevents an international OEM from setting up it's wholly owned manufacturing plant, and compels them to find a partner who must be given a 50% or higher stake.

The Indian government has not formulated any such rules.

That used to be the case in India too. Honda had to work with Siel and Toyota with Kirloskar to setup shop in India. 100% FDI was opened much later (mid 2000s I think). In other sectors like Airlines, it is still 49/50/51%.

In my opinion, it would be good for our economy if more players set up shop here for manufacturing and sales+service. For example, India has around 650 districts. Even the largest player (Maruti) does not cover all districts in terms of sales outlets. In MH, it has dealers in 25 out of 35 districts. Picture is much worse for new players..

[FourWheelDrift]

HMSI has been in India since Jan 2001. They began as a wholly owned subsidiary of Honda Motor Company Ltd., Japan. Source : http://honda-com.domain-ref.http.lit...le_Scooter.php

Also, as I recall, there was no requirement of a minimum holding by the Indian partner, when JVs were being encouraged by the Indian government.

So, it's been 12 years now since India allowed 100% FDI ... and China still allows only 49%.

Proliferation of OEMs in India is NOT going to solve the issue of lack of spread of sales outlets in interior districts.

Any OEM entering India will set up a network first in areas where the largest sales of cars happens.

It would be a ballsy (some people would say foolish) OEM who formulates a distribution strategy, beginning with sales in the interiors of the country, before coming to the main towns and cities.

You can rest assured that the Big 4 (Maruti, Hyundai, TATA and Mahindra) are all eager to grow sales by tapping new markets in India. If they sense there is sufficient demand to support a dealership in an unrepresented district, they will be there in a heartbeat.

At any rate, while there could be an absence of a sales outlet in several districts, if I am not mistaken, these 4 OEMs would probably have an authorised service outlet in these areas.

[travelwriter]

Of course. Chinese cars will invade India just like all other Chinese made products across all categories have. The reason that my cynical mind sees is this.

In spite of being the second most populous country in the world, we do not have the attitude, the guts or the wherewithall to manufacture something. Anything.

We are a people who believe in the sole motto of 'Chalta Hai'. As businessmen, we will settle for shoddy quality because it is cheaper to source and trade in than taking the trouble of building it or producing it. Take any category and this is what we find.

We are a bunch of pseudo nationalists who take pride in the fact that some Sunita Williams has visited the Space in a shuttle, but will not take the trouble of creating a facility that uses such technology.

We take pride that our software engineers are present in great numbers in companies like Microsoft, Apple, et al. But we are not ashamed that we do not have a single 'Indian' software that speaks to us in our native language and addresses the needs of our people.

we cannot build roads on our own, we cannot build airports, ports, stations, bridges or even electric units like transformers. We cannot print books on our own, we cannot make toys for our children, we cannot create play areas, we cannot make kitchen gadgets, televisions, computers and, of late, we have realized that we cannot even run our own kirana store. Anything at all that needs effort, perseverance and dedication.

We believe in 'Chalta Hai'. Today my need is served. Who cares about tomorrow? And that is China's opportunity. It has capitalized well on it. So, Chinese products are here to stay and cars are not far behind. The cars will come in with a promise of 35 kms per litre and we will lap it up like crazy.

Mods, please feel free to delete if found unsuitable

[alpha1]

If Chinese can pull off great design and reliable vehicles, I would have no qualms.
Its better than paying heaps of money to the European "premium" car makers to get a good design ...

[M35]

China and India are surely the two auto markets that have grown the most in the last couple of years, defying the economic recession and selling millions of cars per year. But how about a mix of the two? While Indian car makers are yet to launch their models in China, companies selling vehicles in China are already making the final touches to their plans to begin selling in India.

read more:http://www.autoevolution.com/news/ch...ven-31286.html

Will these chinese brands cause any threat to Indian counterparts in the near future? Most possibly yes,if they can set up a good network of service centres across india.It is unfortunate but true that most of us, especially in rural areas or small towns,where people have less access to car reviews in magazines or on the Internet,are more concerned about prices than quality and safety ratings. If these chinese brands enter our country with some local partners who have earned the trust of indians over the years ,there is no reason why they couldn't establish themselves here.

[GTO]

One day, Chinese brands will sell in India and they will find acceptability with the masses. However, that day isn't coming anytime soon. Reason? Chinese automakers still don't build world-class products like the Maruti Swift, Honda Jazz or Hyundai i20. I'd say give them 5 years to catch up.

Can't resist my favourite statement whenever I hear of people doubting the quality of Chinese cars. Do you know that Toyota nearly withdrew from the American market in the 60's because of an UNRELIABLE product? Yup, that's Toyota we are talking about!

1960’s : "Japanese cars are too cheap, flimsy, lack depth in engineering, are a copy of other cars and will never make the cut."

1980's : "Korean cars are too cheap, flimsy, lack depth in engineering, are a copy of other cars and will never make the cut."

2000's : "Chinese cars are too cheap, flimsy, lack depth in engineering, are a copy of other cars and will never make the cut."

See a pattern?

[M35]

@GTO
+100
They may take a few more years to enter India but they already have a quite number of better products than some of our home grown cars.In better products I mean better built quality and equipment levels in the given price bracket [difference in government taxation should be considered though]

Yesterday I happened to see two cars parked outside my apartment similar to the size of Tata Vista. The red one is a Cherry Motor product and the silver one a Brilliance H320,I guess.

[shankar.balan]

This is absolutely right.
Indeed last year when we went for a holiday to Australia, I saw a GreatWall SUV sitting in a parking lot of a shopping centre we were visiting.
It looked really nice and with all due respect, it really looked like it was much more solid and well built than our own Mahindras and Tata SUVs.
If they launch here, I am 100% sure they will find takers because they are likely to offer so much more to consumers at significantly cheaper prices.
What you said about the 1960's, 1980's and 2000's is absolutely right!
2010's will be the watershed for the Chinese...
Perhaps the 2020's could be a sort of watershed for us Indian car makers?
If the world still exists as we know it, that is...

Originally Posted by GTO

One day, Chinese brands will sell in India and they will find acceptability with the masses. However, that day isn't coming anytime soon. Reason? Chinese automakers still don't build world-class products like the Maruti Swift, Honda Jazz or Hyundai i20. I'd say give them 5 years to catch up.

Can't resist my favourite statement whenever I hear of people doubting the quality of Chinese cars. Do you know that Toyota nearly withdrew from the American market in the 60's because of an UNRELIABLE product? Yup, that's Toyota we are talking about!

1960’s : "Japanese cars are too cheap, flimsy, lack depth in engineering, are a copy of other cars and will never make the cut."

1980's : "Korean cars are too cheap, flimsy, lack depth in engineering, are a copy of other cars and will never make the cut."

2000's : "Chinese cars are too cheap, flimsy, lack depth in engineering, are a copy of other cars and will never make the cut."

See a pattern?

[M35]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Perhaps the 2020's could be a sort of watershed for us Indian car makers?

Once some of these Chinese brands start launching their VFM products in India, then with the likes of already dominating Toyota,Hyundai,Renault and more international brands interested in our car industry, there would probably be no space for our Indian players. Mahindra seems to be up there for the big stage in the UV segments. What is Tata doing these days with their products like Aria and now Storme? They seem to have lost their plot completely at present with these products.

[zenren]

Originally Posted by I_s14

Hi M35, NCAP is yet to take shape in India. Moreover most of the Korean manufacturers have a 4+ rating at Euro NCAP and our homegrown cars fare almost equally in the safety tests conducted by ARAI and ICAT. Moreover, several india made cars are being exported to europe where it has been mandated by the authorities to get an NCAP rating before allowing exports, so the manufacturers are capable of doing it. I would doubt if they are making separate dyes just to ensure a 5% odd share of their total sales that is being exported. So in all probability, the vehicles that we get are at par with the ones being exportes barring a few minor tweaks that foreign nations have mandated.

Let me put my perspective:

The cars sold in overseas markets that meet the safety requirements do have safety features in it. When i20 was launched in India, even the base version that didn't have ABS/airbags used to have a sticker in the rear windscreen boasting of 5-star NCAP rating. I'm sure the model that was tested was a fully loaded top end version with the entire safety kit. i've always wondered the NCAP safety ratings that the base variants here would achieve if tested.

IMO, it is not a question of whether the Indian maufacturers are capable of providing cars that meet the safety requirements. It is more of whether majority of the Indian customers really care for it.

Given an optional variant with ABS and airbags, how many Indian customers really go for it? Majority wouldn't mind spending more than 50k extra for ICE/alloy wheels/power windows/leather seats etc but when it comes to ABS/airbags, they always have a justification for not opting these!

If there were no fines for seatbelt/helmets, how many people would really wear them while driving? It doesn't cost them anything to use something that is already provided in the car. We are more concerned about the wrinkles in the dress if we wear the seat belts!

For such a market, I don't really think they would have an issue buying/travelling in a Chinese car even if it doesn't really provide the safety requirements.

The more prominent factor that would play against the Chinese cars would be that the car is a status symbol here and most Indians wouldn't prefer to be associated with a cheap car. If the Chinese cars come with a 'cheap alternative' image, it might not really sell that well.

Again, if they set up a manufacturing unit here, I'd be curious to see how they would be price it competitive and handle the labour issues at the same time. I'm pretty sure they enjoy a lot of cheap labour in China but that may not be so easy in India where labour unions have the power to bring down a company.

Originally Posted by M35

Yesterday I happened to see two cars parked outside my apartment similar to the size of Tata Vista. The red one is a Cherry Motor product and the silver one a Brilliance H320,I guess.

Looks a little different from the usual cars we see here. So no complaints as long as it meets the minimum reliability requirements and wouldn't cause traffic blocks due to breakdowns in the already congested city roads. Please do keep posting more such pics of the Chinese cars.

[sgiitk]

At the end of the day it is the price to performance ratio which is the key. In the beginning there will be scepticism, so they will have to work harder.

Not many remember that in the 50's Japanese was considered to be cheap and shoddy. No longer now !!!!

[StarrySky]

IMO, the biggest problem Chinese cars are going to face in India is one of perception. We have so many Chinese products in our market today. Most of them are considered cheap and good-looking and people do not expect them to last long. That expectation is fine for a Rs.100 toy or a Rs.3.5K mobile phone, but not for cars. If people attach the same perception to Chinese cars (which will anyway happen initially), then they are in for trouble.

I do not know about Japanese cars in the '60s or '70s, but when they came to India, they had the reputation of being reliable. Moreover, we in India were used to many excellent quality Japanese items, be it electronic goods, watches or something else. So much so, that I remember many people specifically looking for "Made in Japan" tag before buying products (many still do). Even for a product by a Japanese company people preferred a "Made in Japan" piece to the same product made in Taiwan/Malaysia.

Compare it to Chinese products available in our market which have a reputation for everything but quality. I'm not forgetting that many items of quality we get here from international brands are probably made in China, but how many people know that?

Probably Hyundai was in a similar position (Korean car) when it came to India. But I think Hyundai did not have to fight the highly negative perception on product quality as the Chinese. People considered Hyundai inferior to the Japanese cars, but that did not mean they considered Hyundai to be of "bad" quality.

[srishiva]

If the Chinese can give a better cars than our Indian manufacturers, which I think they can, they will succeed. Look at the infrastructure that they have built in China.

Engineering good cars should not be that difficult. At least if it helps lower and middle income people in India to buy a reliable car, the country of origin for the manufacturer should not matter.

Safety aspects are no brainers since they will adhere to what our govt can formulate.

[I_s14]

Originally Posted by zenren

Let me put my perspective:

The cars sold in overseas markets that meet the safety requirements do have safety features in it. When i20 was launched in India, even the base version that didn't have ABS/airbags used to have a sticker in the rear windscreen boasting of 5-star NCAP rating. I'm sure the model that was tested was a fully loaded top end version with the entire safety kit. i've always wondered the NCAP safety ratings that the base variants here would achieve if tested.

Hi Zenren,
A colleague of mine has been working on drafting the regulations of NCAP for India and as a result we have had detailed discussions about this in our office. The Euro NCAP is not necessarily done on the fully loaded top variant of a vehicle, it is awarded to the most selling variant which in most cases is not the top variant and may/may not have ABS and other safety features. Also, the vehicle variant that had been awarded the NCAP rating can only be adorned with the "x STAR RATING IN EURO NCAP" sticker. The other variants are not permitted to be decorated in such a manner, not sure if this practice is being followed by these said manufacturers in India, though. However, once NCAP is implemented in India, which may take up to 5 years, keeping in mind the red tapism involved, it will be a boon for everyone, esp. the end user as we will be aware of the capabilities of a car that we plan to buy.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

At the end of the day it is the price to performance ratio which is the key. In the beginning there will be scepticism, so they will have to work harder.

Very true sir. In the end, this is the only factor that should matter to the user. This and the fact that they have to make sure that their vehicles don't break down in india, otherwise they won't be doing their already tarnished image any good.


And here is a reference: Euro NCAP

Why are some cars tested with certain safety features when others are not?
Euro NCAP tests cars with those safety features which are fitted as standard in the great majority of sales. In 2009, a safety item must be standard in 85 percent of European sales, and must be optional on all variants in a model range, in order to be fitted to the test vehicle. In 2010, the requirement will be 90 percent of sales; in 2011, 95 percent. By 2012, Euro NCAP will only be testing cars with equipment which is fitted as standard in all European sales. Whether or not a particular item is fitted to a test vehicle depends on the extent to which the manufacturer has made it standard equipment in the model range across Europe.

Manufacturers may fund additional tests to demonstrate the effectiveness of items of safety equipment which do not fulfil our requirements. However, Euro NCAP’s star rating is based on the ‘base’ vehicle and no rating is given to the better equipped car.