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![]() | #46 | |
Senior - BHPian ![]() | Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile Quote:
Also, on the Epsilon-2 ...do you mean alloy block, because cars all cars have had alloy heads since the 80s. | |
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![]() | #47 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Delhi
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| Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile Quote:
I stand corrected, could be a typo. Epsilon was the original 999 cc engine in the santro, epsilon-2 was the bored out version with 1086 cc and epsilon-3 featured alloy block and ROCAM tech. Epsilon 3 is called eRLX. A modified version of the same engine was used in the i10 1.1 badged as IRDE with more power and torque due to different cylinder head and gasket design and was tuned for the heavier i10. The same motor featured a polished and powder coated head and an increased power of 2 ps. This motor is called IRDE-2 and features in the i10 facelift introduced in 2010. Last edited by sidindica : 10th January 2011 at 19:17. | |
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![]() | #48 |
BHPian Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Mumbai
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| Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile
The Japanese specialist would be JATCO. The gearbox was JF402E, the later versions were JF405E, though I am not sure which version the Santro's sported. Interestingly Suzuki's kei cars in Japan used the same gearbox, wonder why they never got it to India! |
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![]() | #49 | |
Senior - BHPian ![]() | Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile JATCO is more of CVT specialist. Aisin is what I had in mind. Quote:
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![]() | #50 |
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() ![]() | Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile The first automatic I drove in belonged to my firm's CEO back in 2000- an Opel Astra. He gave me a ride from office and couldn;t stop raving about it- that day began my love affair with slushboxes. Was able to drive an AT soon after, on my first visit to the US. Drove a friend's Passat (awesome!), another friend's old Buick or Oldsmobile or some such (awesomer!) and some Ford Escorts from Budget car rental (meh!) Back in India, did not drive one till about 2003 when on a trip to Chennai, my friend's fiance got pulled over and chastised gently (She was well connected) for not having a license, so I had to drive. An OHC CVT- sheer delight! Recently TDed the Vento AT before booking it. Was sorely tempted to TD the Cruze AT and Laura DSG but resisted cuz I may well have succumbed and gone wayyy over budget! Thanks Sid for this thread. Slushboxes we love! May their tribe increase. |
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![]() | #51 |
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() ![]() | Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile Sid great thread. AT's today tend to have more gears (normally 1 more) than manuals (case to point Laura, Superb, E-Class) 6,7,8 gears and are more fuel effecient than manuals. Earlier AT were less fuel effecient compared to MT for a primary reasons than we had 3 or 4 speed boxes in AT while the MT was 5 speed. |
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![]() | #52 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Bangalore
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| Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile
OHC AT was not CVT Quote:
Another reason is, ATs tend to come to lower gears more often then we do go to lower gears in the manuals. More number of gears should improve but cannot eliminate this issue altogether. | |
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![]() | #53 |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Delhi
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| Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile CHAPTER 5. CONTINUOUS EVOLUTION OF VARIABLES. 2 KM pe Jhagda. 10 KM pe hathapai. 25 KM pe shanti. aur 30 KM par romance. Woh haathon kaa milna humne sambhal kar rakha hai kahin. Use banaa lo apna. It can only happen if you hold her soft, cozy and a comfortable hand. Perhaps thats what is called as a bond. A bond called love, eternal love. Perhaps love is a continuous evolution of variables. Its not fixed, there are no two sides to the same coin. Toss it and you either get heads up, or tails down. No, nothing to bog you down, but perhaps, AT transmissions are like love stories. Call it a continuous evolution of variables, or call it a continuously variable transmission or popularly known as a CVT. Simply put, A continuously variable transmission (CVT) is a transimssion that can change steplessly through an infinite number of effective gear ratios between maximum and minimum values. This contrasts with other mechanical transmissions that offer a fixed number of gear ratios. The flexibility of a CVT allows the driving shaft to maintain a constant angular velocity over a range of output velocities. This can provide better fuel economy than other transmissions by enabling the engine to run at its most efficient revolutions per minute (RPM) for a range of vehicle speeds. Alternatively it can be used to maximize the performance of a vehicle by allowing the engine to turn at the RPM at which it produces peak power. This is typically higher than the RPM that achieves peak efficiency. So unbelievable, it will leave you speechless, Isn't it? Or perhaps, that's what was proclaimed when Honda launched its revolutionery all new City I-DSI CVT in late 2003. Welcome to the world of user friendliness. Its responsive, efficient and refined twin spark I-DSI engine with 77 hp and 12.5 kg-m torque makes city driving extremely user friendly. No longer a chore, CVT works seemlessly and keeps engine RPM constent, whatever the driving style may be. The new city was a radical departure from being an enthusiast's driving machine to a practical family oriented urban commuter, perfectly justifying its name tag. Competitors loathed, the public went berserk and aghast over the car but the market gave its answer. 4 months waiting and later, the best selling sedan in its class, with the CVT also being in good demand among the ladies. Later facelifted and upgraded to City ZX, it was known for its excellent fuel efficiency (for an AT car) and about 12-13 kmpl was easily achievable. This car changed the way India looked at automatics. In contrast to the people's CVT car, Nissan launched the country's first CVT luxury sedan, the teana, in 2007. 2.5 V6 and priced at 27 lakhs, it was a sales disaster but Nissan's VQ motors and CVTs were receiving good reviews worldwide. A better version of the aforementioned gearbox was launched in the new redesigned teana in 2009 and was a much better behaved car on the road as compared to the previous one. Sales for this model, too was slow. Meanwhile, convectional automatics were also launched in multiple cars.
The new global Hyundai kei-car, the i10 was launched in October 2007. Initially (on paper) the automatic transmission was made optional in 1.1 era IRDE variant but that car never saw the light of the day in the Indian market. It was in july 2008 when Hyundai unveiled its all new kappa engine, the i10 automatic saw light of the day. Carrying over the same JATCO engineered (thanks to BHPian Volt for the name) 4 speed AT transmission, it was unveiled in magna, sportz and asta variants in conjuction with the 1.2 16V DOHC kappa motor with 78 hp. Sales were brisk but slowed down as owners complained of single digit fuel efficiency, though some exceptions are always there. While the motor was a delight, it lacked bottom end power and was tuned more for the top end cruising. The addition of VTVT tech on the facelifted I10, unveiled in end 2010, has helped matters to some extent. Still, i10 was the only kei-car to be available with a competent 4 speed AT transmission...until this car stopped at something..or should we say...stop at nothing. A star is born..or should we say, a fading star is re-born. Maruti's latest global kei-car, the A-star was a sales disaster, To improve sales, MSIL recently launched it in (hold your breath) an 4 speed AT version in 2010. Competitively priced and with ABS standard (at least on paper), unllike the i10 for which you need to chell out Rs. 1.5 lakh more in the ASTA, this car is not actively promoted but somehow has been launched just to have a product for the name sake. 3 pot motor and a cramped rear space can limit appeal, but it should make perfect sense for singles as a second or a third city car. This transmission to has a convectional torque converter and is expected to return decent mileage figures considering its light weight and a 3 pot engine. The wagonR AT was finally retired in 2010 when an all new BS 4 model replaced the original 1999 launched tall man. With the transmission in place on the a-star, a wagonR AT would actually make a much more perfect sense. Sadly, India loves diesels and there is no diesel hatchback with an AT gearbox available as option, despite 8 hatchbacks vie for the same pie. As to make amends, Hyundai launched its 2009 verna (first facelifted) with a CRDI motor mated to an AT and ABS as standard (SX AT). 1498 cc, 110ps and the convenience of an AT, with diesel economy and good performance would have made it a perfect family sedan. Yet, sales are modest at best, again due to its old power sapping 4 speed autocog, and absence of airbags in a 10 lakh rupee sedan, more so with the transformed (second facelift in 2010) looks. The all new verna RB should make the much needed amends when it hits showroom floors this april. The premium hatch segment too only has only one automatic option-the Hyundai i20 1.4. The 1.4 gamma engine with VTVT and 100 ps power mated to the same 4 speed AT box is ideal again, as a sedan complimenting hatch. But priced at north of 8.5 lakhs OTR, it has seen very limited numbers. A CRDI motor mated to the AT gearbox would make a much better sense. Sense? or sensibility? Perhaps its the sixth sense..or 7,8..whatever sense it is, now, its the number game. A game of insane brutality. Because someone has rightly said, two is better than one. Call it a dual personality, or call it a _________. Well, keep guessing what word would fill that blank, till then isn't it time to enjoy this cool friday evening with a hot cup of lavasa inside that swanky Fiat showroom and grilling the hapless fiat sales person about the dual logic? Find out soon, as this revolutionary transmission will shock the automotive world and rock the Indian automobile industry to its core... |
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![]() | #54 |
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() ![]() Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: TVPM
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| Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile What? SCOOPMASTER!!!! Another of your gifts for your followers? No torque convertor,no CVT, just pure Automated Manual gearbox a la Ferrari. This robotised A/T will surely make even M/T love A/Ts. Expecting it on the Linea, but can't wait to see it on the Punto MJD. Diesel A/T hatch-Ready market... |
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![]() | #55 |
Senior - BHPian ![]() | Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile FIAT dualogic? I can barely wait buddy! |
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![]() | #56 | |
BANNED Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Kolhapur
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| Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile Quote:
Volkswagen's DSG - Direct Shift Gearbox? Dual Clutch, 2 manual gearboxes in 1 housing working an automatic? | |
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![]() | #57 |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Delhi
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| Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile CHAPTER 5. MIXED DOUBLES. AT ODDS OF EVENS. ![]() 2 Km pe Jhagda. 10 Km pe hathapai. 25 Km pe shanti. Aur 30 Km pe romance. Un haathon ka milna, humne sambhal kar rakha hai kahin. Use bana loon apna. The key to happiness. For me, and my other half. A revolution in automatic gearboxes. A gearbox that shatters the myth that automatics can't be fun.
Yes, I say it again, the clutch is back. But hey, an AT transmission isn't supposed to have a clutch, isn't it? "Its an automated clutch, in fact it has two clutches." ![]() Two. Yes, two is better than one. The law of duality takes a whole new meaning. The odds are stacked adjacent to the evens, as against them. Welcome to the world of DSG gearbox. Also called as:
The basics of dual clutch gearbox and some trivia (courtesy wikipedia): A dual clutch transmission, commonly abbreviated to DCT (sometimes informally referred to as a twin-clutch gearbox, double clutch transmission, or similar variations thereof), is a differing type of semi-automatic or automated manual automotive transmission. It utilises two separate clutches for odd and even gear sets. It can fundamentally be described as two separate manual transmissions (with their respective clutches) contained within one housing, and working as one unit. They are usually operated in a fully automatic mode, and many also have the ability to allow the driver to manually shift gears, albeit still carried out by the transmission's electro-hydraulics. This type of transmission was invented by Frenchman Adolphe Kégresse just prior to World War II, but he never developed a working model. The first actual DCTs arrived from Porsche in-house development, for Porsche racing cars in the 1980s, when computers to control the transmission became compact enough: the Porsche Doppelkupplungsgetriebe (English: dual clutch gearbox) (PDK) used in the Porsche 956 and 962 Le Mans race cars from 1983, and the Audi Sport Quattro S1 rally car. A dual clutch transmission eliminates the torque converter as used in conventional epicyclic-geared automatic transmissions. Instead, dual clutch transmissions that are currently on the market primarily use two oil-bathed wet multi-plate clutches, similar to the clutches used in most motorcycles, though dry clutch versions are also available. The first series production road car to be fitted with a DCT was the 2003 Volkswagen Golf Mk4 R32. As of 2009, the largest number of sales of DCTs in Western Europe are by various marques of the German Volkswagen Group, though this is anticipated to lessen as other transmission makers and vehicle manufacturers make DCTs available in series production automobiles. In 2010, on BMW Canada's website for the 3 Series Coupe, it is described both as a 7-speed double clutch transmission and as a 7-speed automatic transmission. It is actually a dual clutch semi-automatic. Overview In DCTs where the two clutches are arranged concentrically, the larger outer clutch drives the odd numbered gears, whilst the smaller inner clutch drives the even numbered gears. Shifts can be accomplished without interrupting torque distribution to the driven roadwheels, by applying the engine's torque to one clutch at the same time as it is being disconnected from the other clutch. Since alternate gear ratios can pre-select an odd gear on one gear shaft whilst the vehicle is being driven in an even gear, (and vice versa), DCTs are able to shift more quickly than other cars equipped with single-clutch automated-manual transmissions (AMTs), a.k.a. single-clutch semi-automatics. Also, with a DCT, shifts can be made more smoothly than with an AMT, making a DCT more suitable for conventional road cars. Clutch types There are two fundamental types of clutches utilised in dual clutch transmissions: either two wet multi-plate clutches which are bathed in oil (for cooling), or two dry single-plate clutches. The wet clutch design is generally used for higher torque engines which can generate 350 newton metres (258 ft·lbf) and more (the wet multi-plate clutch DCT in the Bugatti Veyron is designed to cope with 1,250 N·m (922 ft·lbf), whereas the dry clutch design is generally suitable for smaller vehicles with lower torque outputs up to 250 N·m (184 ft·lbf). However, whilst the dry clutch variants may be limited in torque compared to their wet clutch counterparts, the dry clutch variants offer an increase in fuel efficiency, due to the lack of pumping losses of the transmission fluid in the clutch housing. Clutch installation There are now three variations of clutch installation. The original design used a concentric arrangement, where both clutches shared the same plane when viewed perpendicularly from the transmission input shaft, along the same centre line as the engine crankshaft; when viewed head-on along the length of the input shaft, this makes one clutch noticeably larger than the other. The second implementation utilised two single-plate dry clutches which are side-by-side from the perpendicular view, but again sharing the centre line of the crankshaft. A latest variation uses two separate but identical sized clutches; these are arranged side-by-side when viewed head-on (along the length of the input shaft and crankshaft centre line), and also share the same plane when viewed perpendicularly. This latter clutch arrangement (unlike the other two variations) is driven via a gear from the engine crankshaft. The Indian Journey of DSG: The first car to be launched with DSG was, not surprisingly from a company that pioneered this tech, that is VW group. But it was skoda that got this 'box first. In 2006, Skoda launched its all new second generation octavia, renamed Laura for the Indian market as the old octavia was repositioned in the lower price bracket. With a 1.9L Pumpe duse motor, 105 bhp is not exactly what you expect from a modern diesel motor but the transmission's mechanism and lightning quick gear changes due to computer controlled timing of the double clutches made it very quick, torquey and kept skoda's reputation for amazing fuel efficiency intact. Surprisingly, despite the AT-only option available initially, demand was strong and the car was on a wait. But this advance technology is not without its share of drawbacks. VW group's DSG gearboxes are too sensitive for our conditions and somehow the typical Indian driving style of varying rpms took their toll and led to premature failures and huge warranty claims. Skoda'a laura too was a victim of it. Though in subsequent years proper driver training and improved reliability has made this gearbox the enthusiast's choice, it's long term reliability is one thing which needs to be proven in our country. Skoda's poor after sales and lack of customer concern also remains to blame. But till now, the company has enjoyed decent success with the DSG box.
Fiat DUOLOGIC gearbox Fiat's pioneering duologic transmission is nothing but a sequential manual gearbox, similar to the BMW's SMG (M5 and M6) gearboxes. From Fiat: Normally performance and economy pull in different directions, but the DuaLogic gearbox is designed to make extremely efficient use of the engines to which it is attached, ensuring that they are always working at their peak effectiveness for the task in hand. This translates into better performance and lower fuel consumption, by way of lower exhaust emissions. The DuaLogic gearbox is technically described as a sequential manual gearbox, which means it has a conventional clutch and gearbox, so there is no power-sapping torque converter and hydraulic gears. Instead there is small, light actuator unit to operate the clutch and move the gears, plus a highly intelligent computer. Thus, the DuaLogic equipped car has the performance and economy of the manual car as a starting point, unlike a conventional automatic which is always at a disadvantage to a manual gearbox given its weight and power-consuming technology. To this already efficient system is added a computer that knows the engine to which it is connected inside-out. The computer ensures that the gearbox is always in the most effective gear for the performance required, maximising both performance and economy capabilities. Indeed, the cars with DuaLogic even know if it is going downhill or climbing a hill and adjusts its changing patterns appropriately. With the DuaLogic taking over the operation of the gearbox and the clutch, driving is easier and simpler. The driver has the choice of placing the DuaLogic in automatic or manual modes. In automatic mode, DuaLogic does all the work, selecting the gears, operating the clutch and getting the best economy and performance. The driver can also select normal mode or economy mode, with, as the name suggests, the latter selection ensuring that the car extracts every the maximum energy out of every last drop of fuel. DuaLogic doesn’t just blindly change gears. It has full fuzzy logic, so it can adapt to the driver’s style, matching his changing demands, both his style and changing road conditions. Another feature of the DuaLogic is its ability to assess vehicle deceleration and adjust downshifts. In semiautomatic mode, for example, the system allows downshifts, particularly when the driver demands a lower gear to take a corner at speed during a sporty drive. In automatic mode, the system anticipates the downshift to ensure the driver can always call on the most appropriate speed to maintain the required comfort level or fuel saving. With the DuaLogic gearbox in automatic mode, its robotised electronic management system allows the gears to be changed at the time of maximum engine performance. This makes it possible to exploit all the power and torque of the engines and achieve a distinct improvement in acceleration over a manual gearbox. However, the DuaLogic also has a manual mode where, using the gear lever, the driver can self-select gears to get the maximum pleasure out of driving the car. DuaLogic also boosts safety. To prevent unwanted gear changes, the system engages neutral when the engine is still running and the door has been opened and DuaLogic device also activates warning lights and buzzers to notify the driver of emergency situations or manoeuvres that are not permitted and could damage the engine or gearbox. Expect the Fiat to launch the Linea in India with this gearbox as sales stabilise, internationally its available in conjunction with the 1.3 multijet diesel engine and 1.6 multijet in South America. For all its capabilities, the 1.6 will perfectly suit the bill. Perhaps, how about another cup of lavasa with more icing on the cake? ![]() But icing the competition for a cakewalk won't be easy. Perhaps the numbers game just got a whole lot more interesting. Till then, enjoy this wonderful Sunday evening and chillax without fretting your brains. Because the game of one upmanship has just began. Find out more about it, in the next chapter, titled "bigger is better." |
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![]() | #58 |
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() ![]() Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: TVPM
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| Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile Can't wait for the dualogic in the linea, that too with a new 1.6MJD. But am really into a Grande Punto with Dualogic. diesel hatch coupled with A/T. We all have been waiting for this... |
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![]() | #59 |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Delhi
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| Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile CHAPTER 6. ONE UPMANSHIP. ![]() Marriage is like a three-speed gearbox — affection, friendship, love. It is not advisable to crash your gears and go right through to love straightaway. You need to ease your way through. The basis of love is respect, and that needs to be learned from affection and friendship. Perhaps, there is no scope for any of the aforementioned terms in this world of one upmanship. The Indian automobile industry has come a long way, 26 years since this creature set afoot and since the time the M 800 Automatic was launched. New technology, innovations and the game of one upmanship between various players have changed the way we think of AT boxes. Four and five speed is now stone age. Perhaps, its time for 8 speeds to dominate. More on that later. F1 style paddle shifts In today's world of mee too products, a customer wants something different from the usual, something he feels will be his money's worth. We are demanding, aren't we? And despite the dull response to the ATs, something is always in store for the horizon. Perhaps, one thing that makes perfect civic sense is the fun to put the joy back in the driving, F1 style.
multitronic is a stepless transmission launched by Audi AG in late 1999,jointly developed and manufactured by LuK. Based on the principles of continuously variable Transmission (CVT)popularised by DAF trucks, multitronic offers a stepless automatic transmission in which the ratio between the input shaft and output shaft can be varied continuously within a given range, providing virtually an infinite number of possible ratios. The multitronic system uses a link-plate chain drive, an oil cooled multi plate clutch(initially of six parts, later of seven to enable it to cope better with the high torque outputs of larger turbo diesel engines), and complex electronics, to overcome the traditional shortcomings of CVTs. multitronic is a registered trademark of AUDI AG. How it works: The transmission is monitored and regulated under the guise of Audi's "Dynamic Regulating Programme" (DRP), which tracks the driver's inputs (from how the driver applies the throttle pedal), driving conditions, and engine load - to compute the optimal gear ratio for fuel efficiency or maximum performance, as mandated by the user. The transmission can select pre-programmed underdrive to increase performance, or overdrive to improve economy. From 2004, multitronic transmissions offered manual selection of a 'sport mode' to pre-select the performance mapping. The electronic system also includes sensors to detect whether the vehicle is traveling downhill, and provides additional engine braking in such circumstances. Multitronic also offers a number of driver-selectable fixed ratios, selectable from either the gear-lever in a sequential style, or via (optional) steering wheel-mounted fingertip paddle-shift controls. Early versions offered six ratios; in 2004, this was increased to seven, while new Audi models now have multitronic transmission with eight ratios. Some Audi A6 variants that feature the multitronic transmission are now equipped with the fingertip controls as standard. These controls can also switch to semi-automatic mode when one of the paddles is activated; however, they revert to fully automatic after a predetermined period of time of inactivity. The Game of one upmanship: Hum Saath Aath hain. Kyonki yeh dil maange more. 5 speed is for rookies. 6 speed is for ameteurs. Its time to play 7. Welcome to the world of 7G-tronic grarbox, the world's first 7 speed transmission which debuted in India in the W 211 Mercedes Benz E 280 and E 280 CDI versions.
Perhaps its time for that aathva vachan? Wake up from your Monday morning blues and keep guessing this aathva vachan during a well deserved lunch break and show your boss that you, it's you who is the real big boss, as !xobile takes you further in chapter 7, coming up next. (Technical excerpts for multitronic and 7Gtronic courtesy Mercedes Benz, Audi and wikipedia) Last edited by sidindica : 17th January 2011 at 12:47. |
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![]() | #60 |
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() ![]() Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: TVPM
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| Re: The story of automatic evolution. Written A/T matically by !xobile a jolt was about to come from crosstown rivals in 2010 If it's BMW you are talking about, then what about Lexus,they brought 8 speed auto in 2008!!! EDIT: Sorry,forgot this was an India specific thread. Last edited by DicKy : 17th January 2011 at 14:37. |
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