[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by RaguHolla

I believe cars are compared at their higher end, right? If so you need to change Fiesta diesels ranking.

You are right! Fiesta 1.4 Duratorq SXi diesel does have dual airbags.


SAFETY RANKINGS (Updated)




TOTAL RANKINGS (Updated)

[indivic]

Originally Posted by smartcat

I'm just calling it the "Optra 2.0 Diesel" rather than use confusing marketing names like Magnum, Beretta, Colt or Uzi.

Now, now we do seem to have other interests as well , do we ? btw the Magnum is also an ice cream , which the God on my signature is known to dunk a lot.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Dr.AD

By the way, smartcat, when you add features, can you please make sure to add "full trip computer" (with all My Car Stage II features) as a critical feature? This will help the beautiful Linea gain a small point or two :-)

Yeah right. Keep wishing!

I am more surprised by the lower-middle position for SX4. It is a fine car, and except for drivability, has decent scores. Only the drivability is pulling it down. When I test drove it (VVT version) a few times, I never felt the drivability was so bad. May be I don't understand drivability.

Will try to explain driveability again - driveability is the pulling power of the engine in higher gears from low RPM.

Example No. 1: In the city, you are cruising at 40 kmph in the 3rd gear and you approach one of the large (but not too tall) 6 feet wide road humps. In a car with good driveability, you step on the clutch and brake a little to get to 20 kmph - and once you are over the hump, you release the clutch and continue accelerating. All this without downshifting to the second gear.

Or you are cruising at 40 kmph in 3rd gear, and intend to make a turn. You brake to 20 kmph, make the turn and continue in the 3rd gear without downshifting. In cars with good driveability, you can even start from zero in the 3rd gear - but the car will go ga da ga da ga da for a few seconds before picking up speed.

Example No. 2: You are on a state highway doing 80 kmph in the 4 gear. There is a truck in front of you - but when you are about to overtake the truck, you see traffic coming from the opposite side. In a car with good driveability, you follow the truck travelling at 60 kmph in the 4th gear for a few seconds, move to the right and gun the accelerator. All without downshifting to the 3rd gear.

That is driveability for you. Generally, diesel engined cars have better driveability because of higher torque.

Originally Posted by pnredkar

On a serious note, how do you rank cars that have exact same parameter value. I had noticed this situation somewhere in your small car thread. This situation might be more prevalent for features, where multiple cars have exactly the same feature set.

aha, I have a new improved version of ranking cars based on features. Coming up next.

Originally Posted by mkh

strange to see ikon diesel much above fiesta diesel!!

Not surprising IMO. You are getting the same engine at a 35% discount. To add salt to the wound, the engine is in a better state of tune in the ikon than in the Fiesta.

Originally Posted by arishi1

I think FIAT understands this pretty well and thats why they are gunning for the Linea T-Jet.

There were complaints about the 1.4 petrol being too underpowered in the Punto, leave alone the Linea. Anyway, the 120 BHP T-Jet should take it right to the top quartile of the rankings - if the FE is good.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

While I appreciate the time taken by you to collate all the data, what about interiors, pricing, equipments, refinement, looks, servicing costs, spare parts prices and service intervals? Without all this being taken into account the rating are quite frankly not up to the mark.

Equipment & pricing are being considered in this ranking. Regarding other parameters, refer to FAQ on the first page of this thread

Originally Posted by srishiva

Missed this thread. Very good collection of data. If someone can put besides this table the sales table and ranking for the same, it would be interesting.

Somebody pointed out that we don't have the sales split between the petrol & diesel variants.

Originally Posted by benzinblut

There are some surprises and shocks in the analysis so far. Cars expeced to be down the table are right up and vice versa. Didnt expect Manza at the top.

See, Tata always used to make inexpensive cars, but with comparitively poorer engines. Manza gets around the problem by using Fiat Linea's 90 BHP engine - taking it right to the top of the table.

@smartcat: is brand image and A.S.S. coming too?

Nope.

Originally Posted by Vik0728

I had posted earlier on that an Octavia was an Obselete model and no longer available. I checked again with Skoda who confirmed the same.

Will get rid of the Octy from the rankings in the next update!

The last time I checked (about a month back) Hyundai Verna had atleast 2 airbags.

Really? Can anybody confirm this? I checked Hyundai Verna's website - they haven't mentioned airbags under their "SAFETY" segment.

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

smartcat, smart work as usual. But, I am confused over one issue, Dezire equipped with 2 AIRBAGS, ABS & EBD has poorer stopping distance (56.6 M) as compared to Manza (with 2 AIRBAGS & ABS but no EBD) (stopping distance = 51.8 m). Yet, Dezire outscored Manza on your points table (20 is to 17).

Because Manza doesn't have EBD, it is being penalized although it has a better stopping distance. Remember, we are giving equal weightage to all the safety parameters.

Honda City despite being overpriced is proving to be the VFM & Dezire & Manza are terrific VFM cars (refledcted by the sales numbers.)

Yeah, as I mentioned before, price is only one factor to consider when it comes to VFM cars. BMW Corporate Edition @ Rs. 30 lacs can be a VFM car, but not a Maruti 800 @ Rs. 2.5 Lacs. You need to see what you get for the amount you pay.

Originally Posted by Dr.AD

Only when we bring in non-measurable quantities such as fit and finish, quality, reliability (well, in engineering terms reliability is measurable, but that is a separate topic), and handling that Manza starts to have question marks.

GTO calls the Manza a "neutral" handling car - means not too good, not too bad - I think!

Originally Posted by AirWind

Hey smartcat - pretty nice thread... the Optra Magnum 2.0 LT TCDi retails for 10L OTR Bangalore, that's a cool 2 lakhs off the 12L sticker price, can you update the cost table please? It will give the Linea, ANHC & Cedia a run for its money!

Woaah! You sure about this?

Anyway, even if it is true, I'm taking only the published on-road prices - not discounts as they keep changing with time. Anyway, looking at the rankings, one can automatically figure out how much VFM car the Optra diesel is, especially at Rs. 10 lacs.

Originally Posted by indivic

Now, now we do seem to have other interests as well , do we ? btw the Magnum is also an ice cream , which the God on my signature is known to dunk a lot.

Magnum is also the marketing name of a mutual fund strangely. Wonder what the word means.

[CARDEEP]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Because Manza doesn't have EBD, it is being penalized although it has a better stopping distance. Remember, we are giving equal weightage to all the safety parameters.

Thank you for your reply... but, that is what I was wondering, a car without EBD stops better than its competitor equipped with the same, & yet gets penalized. IMO both could have been given equal rankings.

But, this thread is your baby, so you are the best person to judge. If we all suggest one thing or the other, to which you keep on making changes it would not make sense.

[RaguHolla]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Woaah! You sure about this?

Anyway, even if it is true, I'm taking only the published on-road prices - not discounts as they keep changing with time.

Yes that's the right thing to do! I got Fiesta1.6 SXI for 6.7lakhs in Bangalore, that too in April after all price rise!. U never know about extent of discounts!

[Dr.AD]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Will try to explain driveability again - driveability is the pulling power of the engine in higher gears from low RPM.

Example No. 1: In the city, you are cruising at 40 kmph in the 3rd gear and you approach one of the large (but not too tall) 6 feet wide road humps. In a car with good driveability, you step on the clutch and brake a little to get to 20 kmph - and once you are over the hump, you release the clutch and continue accelerating. All this without downshifting to the second gear.

Or you are cruising at 40 kmph in 3rd gear, and intend to make a turn. You brake to 20 kmph, make the turn and continue in the 3rd gear without downshifting. In cars with good driveability, you can even start from zero in the 3rd gear - but the car will go ga da ga da ga da for a few seconds before picking up speed.

Example No. 2: You are on a state highway doing 80 kmph in the 4 gear. There is a truck in front of you - but when you are about to overtake the truck, you see traffic coming from the opposite side. In a car with good driveability, you follow the truck travelling at 60 kmph in the 4th gear for a few seconds, move to the right and gun the accelerator. All without downshifting to the 3rd gear.

That is driveability for you. Generally, diesel engined cars have better driveability because of higher torque.

Thanks you for the explanation, Smarcat. Actually I knew this, and my statement was more of a 'tongue-in-cheek' statement .

What I meant was that when I test drove SX4, even with the definitions you have given and I also understood, I did not find SX4 drivability that bad. Anyway, it will be an off topic discussion here to debate on one particular car's drivability.

Also, please correct me if I am wrong but I feel in city like Bangalore, 0-30 kmph is a more meaningful measure of drivability because often we get to speed of 0 in traffic and once it clears, the maximum speed attainable is typically 30 or 40 when we apply brakes and again come to the usual speed of 0. If a car can pull effortlessly and without too many gear shifts from 0 to 40 in quick time, it is great! And then if it can stop from 40 to 0 without any loss of stability, then even better! This is what we can call drivability in Bangalore.

Drivability is very specific to surrounding conditions. The reason this is fresh in my mind is because currently I am on a visit to US and driving a rental Corolla (same as Altis in India, but in US it is not called Altis), and it has a horrible drivability (especially coupled with a pathetic automatic transmission). I am really frustrated driving this car here. But if I drive the same Corolla (let us say Altis auto which is available in India) in Bangalore, I am sure I will call it very much drivable.

Anyway I am just joking with this drivability stuff (basically because I am really enjoying your thread), please don't mind. I know that you went with the available data on drivability and that is the best thing one could do.

Originally Posted by smartcat

GTO calls the Manza a "neutral" handling car - means not too good, not too bad - I think!

Well, this one I seriously don't understand. We need to ask GTO what he means by "neutral" handling. I feel any car that is not a really good handler is basically a bad handler. If it handles truly neutral, then doesn't it actually fall in a good handler category?

[indivic]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Magnum is also the marketing name of a mutual fund strangely. Wonder what the word means.

magnum: Definition from Answers.com

Magnum is supposed to mean great.

[srikanths1]

Isn't the age of the model supposed to be considered. For example Optra, fiesta, verna etc may be history soon whereas relatively recent models like the ANHC, SX4 have at-least 4 -5 years of shelf life left in them. Not everyone can do a Maruthi 800, at-least not in the competitive environment we have today. The reason i suggest this is the impact on running costs / resale value once some of these models go off the shelf.

[Gilead]

smartcat, what are the 'features' that are being taken into consideration for the next round?

[trrk]

Originally Posted by smartcat

I have discomfort (ankle pain) in cars without dead pedal if I drive continuously for 2 - 3 hours. Having you tried long highway drives in your Manza?

A 1400 and another 700km so far. No. I do not have any ankle pain.

Originally Posted by smartcat

Marina's boot space 1350 litres, and that is no typo. Note that this is the boot space with the rear seats in place, and not folded down. I think my overhead sintex tank too has the same capacity!

As an owner of one, I have to disagree with this. At the boot cover level, it is just below the regular Indigo's boot size. Only if you fill to the top it would exceed the regular Indigo's 450L. Even the Marina site says 670! Just imagine the Octavia / Laura boot and the Marina with seats up, which do you think is bigger?

The 1350 is with rear seats folded, I am sure. Please check and confirm.

And I will get back with Manza ABS - whether it has EBD or not!

[Guna]

Originally Posted by trrk

The 1350 is with rear seats folded, I am sure. Please check and confirm.

This got to be with the rear seat folded down. Not just marina, there is no production car/SUV in India (including Toyota Land Cruiser with third row of seat folded down)which have such boot space without folding the second row of seats.
Boot space of Marina is 410 ltrs.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

Thank you for your reply... but, that is what I was wondering, a car without EBD stops better than its competitor equipped with the same, & yet gets penalized.

Oh, I understood your question now. See, ABS & EBD won't help in reducing the braking distance. With ABS & EBD, you will just have a better car control under certain conditions on panic braking.

Braking distance actually depends on -

- Size of the disc & drum brakes
- Weight of the car
- Tyre width, quality & type of grooves.
- Weight of the engine

Originally Posted by Dr.AD

Thanks you for the explanation, Smarcat. Actually I knew this, and my statement was more of a 'tongue-in-cheek' statement

.

Whoops, hehe OK!

Also, please correct me if I am wrong but I feel in city like Bangalore, 0-30 kmph is a more meaningful measure of drivability because often we get to speed of 0 in traffic and once it clears, the maximum speed attainable is typically 30 or 40 when we apply brakes and again come to the usual speed of 0.

This bit is covered under "performance", where we measure and rank 0 - 60 kmph. Anyway, even in heavy traffic, I guess we do reach 60 kmph atleast. I did a 800 km one month test with my Garmin GPS - the moving average speed in Bangalore is 23 km/hr. If we include traffic stops, the avg speed drops to 16 km/hr.

Originally Posted by srikanths1

Isn't the age of the model supposed to be considered.

I'm pretty sure many buyers keep this in mind - but cannot be incorporated into the rankings.

Originally Posted by trrk

At the boot cover level, it is just below the regular Indigo's boot size. Only if you fill to the top it would exceed the regular Indigo's 450L. Even the Marina site says 670! The 1350 is with rear seats folded, I am sure. Please check and confirm.

Originally Posted by Guna

This got to be with the rear seat folded down.
Boot space of Marina is 410 ltrs.

You two are right. The bootspace with the parcel tray is 410 litres & without parcel tray is 670! We can still take that Marina has the largest boot, and hence not change the rankings right? The whole idea of having a stationwagon is too fill it up with stuff all the way to the roof - and you can't do this in a sedan.

Originally Posted by Gilead

smartcat, what are the 'features' that are being taken into consideration for the next round?

BASIC FEATURES:

Front & Rear Power Windows
AC
Tachometer
Internal Fuel Lid Open
Internal Bootlid Open
Tripmeter
Power Steering

DRIVING AIDS:

Dead Pedal
Steering Mounted Audio Controls
Steering Wheel Reach Adjust
Steering Wheel Rake Adjust
Height Adjustable Drivers Seat
Front arm rest
Electric Mirror Adjust
Electric Foldable Mirrors

IN-CAR ENTERTAINMENT:

CD/MP3 Playback
USB/Aux-in Playback

SAFETY & SECURITY:

Remote Locking with Alarm
Engine Immobilizer
Central Locking

EXTERIOR:

Front Fog Lamps
Rear Fog Lamps
Rear Wiper
Side Mirror Indicators
Wide Tyres (185 & above)
Alloys
Sunroof

CONVENIENCE:

MFD (Computer)
Boot Open button on Keys
Defogger
Rear Arm Rest
Bluetooth Connectivity
Climate Control
Folding Rear Seat
Split Folding Rear Seat

LUXURY CAR FEATURES:

Electric Seats
DVD Player
16 inch wheels
Leather Seats
GPS Navigation
Rear AC Vents


Guess which among these 26 cars is equipped with full electric adjustment (including seat height) for both driver and passenger seat? Remember - the only other car that has this feature is Skoda Superb @ Rs. 21 Lacs (and the usual suspects like BMW, Audi, Merc).

To find out, tune in on Monday (compiling this list will take some time).

[Dr.AD]

Originally Posted by smartcat

BASIC FEATURES:

Front & Rear Power Windows
AC
Tachometer
Internal Fuel Lid Open
Internal Bootlid Open
Tripmeter
Power Steering

Can you also add "engine temperature gauge" (engine oil or coolant temperature) as a required basic feature? It is shocking that some of these 26 cars do not have this apparently simple but extremely useful feature. Instead, they just have a warning light that glows only when the engine is too hot (by when it is almost too late to do anything).

Originally Posted by smartcat

Guess which among these 26 cars is equipped with full electric adjustment (including seat height) for both driver and passenger seat? Remember - the only other car that has this feature is Skoda Superb @ Rs. 21 Lacs (and the usual suspects like BMW, Audi, Merc).

To find out, tune in on Monday (compiling this list will take some time).

I think it is Tata Indigo XL.

I am eagerly awaiting your report on Monday, and hopefully also the Excel sheet with all data.

Thanks,
-AD

[NutsNBolts]

Rated with five stars. Excellent effort smartcat. Numbers speaketh the truth.

[trrk]

Hi,

Originally Posted by smartcat

You two are right. The bootspace with the parcel tray is 410 litres & without parcel tray is 670! We can still take that Marina has the largest boot, and hence not change the rankings right? The whole idea of having a stationwagon is too fill it up with stuff all the way to the roof - and you can't do this in a sedan.

It is not about whether trrk or guna is right, we just wanted maximum accuracy in your data and rating.

Without any protection for the passengers from luggage above seat back height, the 670L is not easily usable.

About changing the rankings, it is for you to decide!

Many people do not realise that the Marina has less boot space (to the shelf) than the regular Indigo!