Suzuki to switch from Fiat to VW diesels

goacom · 17th January 2010, 03:08

Don't know when this will take place in India, but it may be sooner than we think!

Suzuki And VW: And They?re Off! | The Truth About Cars

thangu · 17th January 2010, 06:51

Interesting, not sure if this will happen in India soon though. Swift/Dzire diesel versions are such runaway successes they command a huge waiting period, and this is mainly due to the brilliant fiat engine. Maruti has also spent a huge amount of money setting up a plant to manufacture the fiat engine and they probably don't want that to go to waste.

I've not seen/read about a good CRDI engine from the VW group, though their TDI engines are pretty famous. We will have to wait and see how these engines fare in the Polo.

ph03n!x · 17th January 2010, 07:41

This is interesting! The 1.3 multijet has proved itself and is a runaway success. If it were to be replaced by a different engine the cost, spare and serviceability of the new engine will take quite a few years to match the current levels.

My guess - the 1.3 national engine will stay, and bigger / newer engines will come from VW. Maruti-Suzuki has not known to phase out old yet successful models, why would they phase out a new and roaring success engine?!!

theMAG · 17th January 2010, 08:42

It'll be interesting to see what effect this will have on the cost of Suzuki's diesel offerings in India into the future. I'm not sure VW would have the same cost advantage Fiat has in selling their diesels here.

tortoiseNhare · 17th January 2010, 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by theMAG

It'll be interesting to see what effect this will have on the cost of Suzuki's diesel offerings in India into the future. I'm not sure VW would have the same cost advantage Fiat has in selling their diesels here.

I'm not quite clear about the equation between Fiat and Suzuki. The diesel engine plant near Gurgaon (Manesar?) is Suzuki's property where the 1248cc CRDi engines developed by Fiat are being produced with the DDiS name. Does it mean that Suzuki had bought the technological know-how to produce them? Or is it that Fiat counts how many engines Suzuki manufactures there and gets paid some contracted amount for every engine?

aaggoswami · 17th January 2010, 09:21

I had earlier posted somewhere that VW and Suzuki plan to work on proudcts from January. So this news is correct in a way.

However, the effect will be negative IMO. Fiat diesel has issue with turbo lag and also they are finding some issue with throttle response in a very very few cases. But that is all. Otherwise the unit is fantastic without doubt and can be tuned to work in environments like India. I doubt the same can be done to VW motors without affecting overall performance.

VW engines are not known for reliability. Passat, Jetta motors consuming oil in ACI long term test cars is weird. We dont find such issues with Fiat SDE. Secondly, cost. Suzuki has spent huge amount of money for license and setting up plant. So its likely that we will have that SDE unit for longer period. But I am sure that VW will eat more money than Fiat and deliver pathetic products. Their motors are not the best any given day. Not diesels. Look at BMW, even the VMmotori units in Chevy cars. They are better than VW units.

If VW type of performance i.e. eating engine oil, etc. is delivered in Maruti cars, then the image Maruti has built up till now will be killed within months.

I am against this move as its not going to benefit us in any way. We will end up getting inferior products from Suzuki and VW will smile all the way.

Amartya · 17th January 2010, 09:32

@aaagoswami - Very nicely laid out points, couldn't agree more.

Somehow I think that VW's smaller diesel engines have not exactly been "wonderful". To be honest, I thought the much touted Pumpe Duse diesel engines were a load of bullcrap! The Skoda Fabia was noisier (outside) than a NA Indica.

I am right now in Kingston, Ontario and see quite a few Jetta diesels (old ones and new) and all of them are really noisy. I am sure VW plonks in some amazing diesel mills in Audi's but in general their diesel technology doesn't impress me.

If someone recalls watching a Top Gear episode where Jeremy and James try to come up with an advertisement for a Scirocco (pronounced as Shirocco) diesel and they poked a lot of fun at the diesel version.

wildon · 17th January 2010, 10:26

Hm.. so suzuki decided to start digging their own graveyard !

aditya79india · 17th January 2010, 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amartya

@aaagoswami - Very nicely laid out points, couldn't agree more.

Somehow I think that VW's smaller diesel engines have not exactly been "wonderful". To be honest, I thought the much touted Pumpe Duse diesel engines were a load of bullcrap! The Skoda Fabia was noisier (outside) than a NA Indica.

I am right now in Kingston, Ontario and see quite a few Jetta diesels (old ones and new) and all of them are really noisy. I am sure VW plonks in some amazing diesel mills in Audi's but in general their diesel technology doesn't impress me.

If someone recalls watching a Top Gear episode where Jeremy and James try to come up with an advertisement for a Scirocco (pronounced as Shirocco) diesel and they poked a lot of fun at the diesel version.

Ever since Jeremy Clarkson has taken over, BBC Topgear has become an idiotic show, if you are looking for sensible motoring. It is a performance auto show. Their fun was not directed at the Scirocco but at the generally low spread of the diesel torque band

aargee · 17th January 2010, 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

VW engines are not known for reliability. Passat, Jetta motors consuming oil in ACI long term test cars is weird.

So are the issues available for free with Jetta & Passat sold in India too? Also, pls help understand what is ACI? Thanks.

SunilM · 17th January 2010, 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by goacom

Don't know when this will take place in India, but it may be sooner than we think!

Suzuki And VW: And They?re Off! | The Truth About Cars

Interesting observation by someone in the above link and I quote:

"In Consumer Reports 2009 relibility poll Suzuki was ranked 13th with no cars below average in reliability. There were, however, only two Japanese manufacturers worse than Suzuki; Mazda and Nissan. Volkswagen was much lower on the poll, 21st, and had the worst vehicle in the poll."

Looks like Indians are the only species on the planet who are ga-ga over Suzuki! Rest of the world sees its quality with a lot of skepticism. VW is even worse in that survey.

That made me remember a conversation I had with an American friend. We were talking about Indian car scene and he was surprised that Suzuki is the largest selling car, by far, in India. He said - "Don't they have real quality issues? At least that's what we feel in USA". I was surprised to hear it then, not now!

But they do give us real VFM cars.

xingamazon · 17th January 2010, 11:43

This is one likely happenning, but these are too early days to start speculating on such things, remember owing shares of a company is one thing.
But changing the way it works and replacing its market winner is a totally different ball game, these changes are not going to happen for sure, until some new buyer of these days is thinking of replacing his car.

These changes will take atlest 5-7 years for sure, even if they decide to do so.

aaggoswami · 17th January 2010, 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by aargee

So are the issues available for free with Jetta & Passat sold in India too? Also, pls help understand what is ACI? Thanks.

ACI = AutoCar India. One of the monthly Automotive magazines available in India.
I am not sure of issues, but this is not the first time I have read this. Even before that in another mag I had read about the same. Internet also gave me similar data. Its nowhere as good as Toyota. Toyota engine may or may not have highest bhp/torque/performance, but they just go on and on. This is true for almost all Japanese brands.

VW has highest cost of long term ownership. Read this in US automag " Motor Trend " and also read in many reports.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunilM

Interesting observation by someone in the above link and I quote:

"In Consumer Reports 2009 relibility poll Suzuki was ranked 13th with no cars below average in reliability. There were, however, only two Japanese manufacturers worse than Suzuki; Mazda and Nissan. Volkswagen was much lower on the poll, 21st, and had the worst vehicle in the poll."

Looks like Indians are the only species on the planet who are ga-ga over Suzuki! Rest of the world sees its quality with a lot of skepticism. VW is even worse in that survey.

That made me remember a conversation I had with an American friend. We were talking about Indian car scene and he was surprised that Suzuki is the largest selling car, by far, in India. He said - "Don't they have real quality issues? At least that's what we feel in USA". I was surprised to hear it then, not now!

But they do give us real VFM cars.

Exactly. In US man small niggles are also identified as problems. Here we tolerate a lot. When lancer was launched, it lead the quality survey with around 1XX PPV. Now that is quite a high figure and rest had even more PPV. So quality is not the same and Suzuki is not known for high quality, but everywhere complains regarding troublesome powertrain are low.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xingamazon

This is one likely happenning, but these are too early days to start speculating on such things, remember owing shares of a company is one thing.
But changing the way it works and replacing its market winner is a totally different ball game, these changes are not going to happen for sure, until some new buyer of these days is thinking of replacing his car.

These changes will take atlest 5-7 years for sure, even if they decide to do so.

VW is bullish to become no.1. For that they need to crack Indian market also. They learnt that showing VW wont sell cars, so went into a deal with Suzuki. Suzuki on the other hand is strong in Asian markets, but is so strong in N.American market. Also the possible diesels from VW may help.

VW needs market share and Suzuki needs diesel. So they were very quick in getting back to work for technology transfer. Not a surprise. Though such quick changes wont happen in India.

Amartya · 17th January 2010, 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by aditya79india

Ever since Jeremy Clarkson has taken over, BBC Topgear has become an idiotic show, if you are looking for sensible motoring. It is a performance auto show. Their fun was not directed at the Scirocco but at the generally low spread of the diesel torque band

OT: You are right, Top Gear is now an entertainment package for the masses rather than a show for automobile enthusiasts.

Gurudatta Nayak · 17th January 2010, 13:20

In my Opinion Maruti Suzuki will keep the existing 1.3L DDiS Engine for Entry level Diesel range like the Ritz/Swift/Dzire. As 1.3L DDiS was jointly developed by GM, Suzuki & Fiat. Maruti wants a higher capacity diesel engine to power SX4, Kizashi, RIII & grand Vitara. Suzuki had talk with fiat to provide License to manufacture 1.6L, 1.9L & 2.0L Engine but, fiat is delaying the process as it would hit they product line up if they allow Suzuki to Manufacture the Engine.

VW took the advantage of this bought stakes in Suzuki. Suzuki will provide wide sales & service network support to VW Product lineup & in return VW will share the Diesel Engine Technology & Engineering techniques to Suzuki.

17th January 2010, 03:08	#1
goacom BHPian Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: San Jose USA, Panaji, Goa Posts: 95 Thanked: 355 Times	Suzuki to switch from Fiat to VW diesels Don't know when this will take place in India, but it may be sooner than we think! Suzuki And VW: And They?re Off! \| The Truth About Cars
	() Thanks

17th January 2010, 06:51	#2
thangu BHPian Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 124 Thanked: Once	Interesting, not sure if this will happen in India soon though. Swift/Dzire diesel versions are such runaway successes they command a huge waiting period, and this is mainly due to the brilliant fiat engine. Maruti has also spent a huge amount of money setting up a plant to manufacture the fiat engine and they probably don't want that to go to waste. I've not seen/read about a good CRDI engine from the VW group, though their TDI engines are pretty famous. We will have to wait and see how these engines fare in the Polo.
	() Thanks

17th January 2010, 07:41	#3
ph03n!x Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Coimbatore Posts: 2,602 Thanked: 6,159 Times	This is interesting! The 1.3 multijet has proved itself and is a runaway success. If it were to be replaced by a different engine the cost, spare and serviceability of the new engine will take quite a few years to match the current levels. My guess - the 1.3 national engine will stay, and bigger / newer engines will come from VW. Maruti-Suzuki has not known to phase out old yet successful models, why would they phase out a new and roaring success engine?!!
	() Thanks

17th January 2010, 08:42	#4
theMAG Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: May 2006 Location: Avon, CT Posts: 7,196 Thanked: 1,821 Times View My Garage	It'll be interesting to see what effect this will have on the cost of Suzuki's diesel offerings in India into the future. I'm not sure VW would have the same cost advantage Fiat has in selling their diesels here.
	() Thanks

17th January 2010, 09:21	#6
aaggoswami Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Vadodara Posts: 4,997 Thanked: 3,000 Times	I had earlier posted somewhere that VW and Suzuki plan to work on proudcts from January. So this news is correct in a way. However, the effect will be negative IMO. Fiat diesel has issue with turbo lag and also they are finding some issue with throttle response in a very very few cases. But that is all. Otherwise the unit is fantastic without doubt and can be tuned to work in environments like India. I doubt the same can be done to VW motors without affecting overall performance. VW engines are not known for reliability. Passat, Jetta motors consuming oil in ACI long term test cars is weird. We dont find such issues with Fiat SDE. Secondly, cost. Suzuki has spent huge amount of money for license and setting up plant. So its likely that we will have that SDE unit for longer period. But I am sure that VW will eat more money than Fiat and deliver pathetic products. Their motors are not the best any given day. Not diesels. Look at BMW, even the VMmotori units in Chevy cars. They are better than VW units. If VW type of performance i.e. eating engine oil, etc. is delivered in Maruti cars, then the image Maruti has built up till now will be killed within months. I am against this move as its not going to benefit us in any way. We will end up getting inferior products from Suzuki and VW will smile all the way.
	() Thanks

17th January 2010, 09:32	#7
Amartya Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Evanston Posts: 1,748 Thanked: 738 Times	@aaagoswami - Very nicely laid out points, couldn't agree more. Somehow I think that VW's smaller diesel engines have not exactly been "wonderful". To be honest, I thought the much touted Pumpe Duse diesel engines were a load of bullcrap! The Skoda Fabia was noisier (outside) than a NA Indica. I am right now in Kingston, Ontario and see quite a few Jetta diesels (old ones and new) and all of them are really noisy. I am sure VW plonks in some amazing diesel mills in Audi's but in general their diesel technology doesn't impress me. If someone recalls watching a Top Gear episode where Jeremy and James try to come up with an advertisement for a Scirocco (pronounced as Shirocco) diesel and they poked a lot of fun at the diesel version.
	() Thanks

17th January 2010, 10:26	#8
wildon BANNED Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bangalore Posts: 2,442 Thanked: 1,252 Times View My Garage	Hm.. so suzuki decided to start digging their own graveyard !
	() Thanks

17th January 2010, 11:43	#12
xingamazon Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Chennai Posts: 1,400 Thanked: 122 Times	This is one likely happenning, but these are too early days to start speculating on such things, remember owing shares of a company is one thing. But changing the way it works and replacing its market winner is a totally different ball game, these changes are not going to happen for sure, until some new buyer of these days is thinking of replacing his car. These changes will take atlest 5-7 years for sure, even if they decide to do so.
	() Thanks

17th January 2010, 13:20	#15
Gurudatta Nayak BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Goa India Posts: 208 Thanked: 245 Times	In my Opinion Maruti Suzuki will keep the existing 1.3L DDiS Engine for Entry level Diesel range like the Ritz/Swift/Dzire. As 1.3L DDiS was jointly developed by GM, Suzuki & Fiat. Maruti wants a higher capacity diesel engine to power SX4, Kizashi, RIII & grand Vitara. Suzuki had talk with fiat to provide License to manufacture 1.6L, 1.9L & 2.0L Engine but, fiat is delaying the process as it would hit they product line up if they allow Suzuki to Manufacture the Engine. VW took the advantage of this bought stakes in Suzuki. Suzuki will provide wide sales & service network support to VW Product lineup & in return VW will share the Diesel Engine Technology & Engineering techniques to Suzuki.
	() Thanks