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18th September 2009, 13:35 | #46 |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Delhi
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Is that true. What about Dzire. Both are in the same mid-size segment even though City is lakhs more expensive (analogy of Alto and Jazz). City still outsells if you narrow the segment so that the statistics prove one way or the other. |
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18th September 2009, 13:55 | #47 | ||
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1.3: 0 to 100: 12.91sec (90Bhp) 1.5: 0 to 100: 10.68sec (100Bhp) 1.5 Vtec: 0 to 100: 10.01sec (106Bhp) (9.06L) NHC:(ZX) 1.5: 0 to 100: 13.11sec (77Bhp) 1.5 Vtec: 0 to 100: 10.66sec (100) (Rs. 8.8L) ANHC:(or City 09) 1.5 iVtec: 0 to 100: 10.28sec (116Bhp) (8.37L) Last edited by Aditya : 18th September 2009 at 14:28. | ||
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18th September 2009, 14:05 | #48 |
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Vasudeva, you are right. Our discussion was about the segment that doesn't include Indigo, Logan, Dzire, Ikon that are priced at way lower points catering to a different (and very price sensitive) market segment. Last edited by pmbabu : 18th September 2009 at 14:08. |
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18th September 2009, 14:07 | #49 | |||||||||||
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However, I do not accept your statement that Honda has only been reactive. They've also been extremely pro-active. Here is how: 1. Neither Honda nor Toyota sell outdated products. Unlike Fiat which still sells the 10 year old Palio, or Hyundai its decade old Accent, or Mitsubishi the Lancer or even Skoda with its Octavia. Honda & Toyota, alongwith Mercedes, BMW & Audi, ONLY sell the absolute latest products in India. The same that they do worldwide. Even though we very well know that the ol’ Qualis would still be a best seller today, and the previous gen practical / cheaper NHC would have strong sales each month. 2. Honda was the first to offer a 100 BHP sedan, variable valve tech, 5 speed auto in the C segment, a value-priced D segmenter, a previous best seller premium petrol SUV and now is one of the few manufacturers to sell ALL their cars in ALL variants standard with ABS & airbags. Every manufacturer is pro-active as well as reactive. Even Maruti, nothing wrong in that. Quote:
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Look at sales figures over 1 - 2 - 5 years, don't base your judgement on two months. For the record, Honda is going to produce over 4,000 Citys in September. Don't ask me how I know. Quote:
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With relevance to features, please refer to my previous post. Neither Honda nor Toyota have ever been about features. Worldwide. Quote:
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Take my OHC Vtec. EVERYTHING works the way it is supposed to. Consider this fact : My 7 year old OHC Vtec has lesser niggles than a brand new Fiat Linea. Each & every bulb functions, each & every mechanical part performs, leave the steering and it will still run straight. The last time my Vtec had its scheduled service visit was in Jan ’09. For the next visit in Jan ’10, I only have two things on my to-do list so far : Cracked windscreen & clean air-con blower of dust. That’s it, NO MALFUNCTIONS! Can you beat that? Vahan, since you live in Mumbai and are a car guy, drop me a PM the next you are around Churchgate. Drive my Vtec and you will be amazed at the way that she has held up after 7 years of extremely hard high-rpm driving. The performer side in me cannot help but end up impressed at this ability to work day in and day out without a single defect. I got another one for those of you who think Hondas are overpriced. Guess which four brands command the HIGHEST brand loyalty in India? Honda, Toyota, Maruti & Hyundai. In other words, these 4 brands have the HIGHEST in return customers. Says a lot, don’t you think? Why am I not surprised? It’s only after you own their cars that the “supposed premium” is more than negated in the long run. Plus, we enjoy best-in-class performance, efficiency, lowest cost of ownership and the best resale. No action speaks louder than the return customer who is paying with his own hard-earned money. There isn't a larger attestation to customer satisfaction. Quote:
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You can say that again. Again, I am in no way trying to imply that the ANHC is perfect in any way. It has MANY areas of improvement. Yet, there isn't a doubt that the car is an all-rounder and certainly NOT overpriced as some posters have made it seem to be (earlier in the thread). In my books, the Honda City is still the definitive C segment petrol sedan. The masses seem to concur. Last edited by GTO : 18th September 2009 at 14:15. | |||||||||||
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18th September 2009, 14:10 | #50 |
BHPian | What about the additional cost of capital involved in buying the New City? If Honda charges a premium of say 1.2 -1.3 lacs. Then this additional capital has a cost involved which many people seem to have blissfully ignored. For the lowest cost of ownership this fact needs to be taken into account as the deferment of payment in the form of a higher costs of ownership (For other cars), actually enables the buyer to save some money as the deferment of payment ends up reducing the value of the money paid in present value terms. Hence the buyer ends up saving!! The Honda is the most fuel efficient Petrol C segment car. period But the cost of OE spares is actually more for the City than the SX4, Verna(P), Fiesta(P). The Cost of the total parts basket: SX4: Rs. 54,431.00/- City: Rs. 88,502.93/- Verna(P): Rs. 57,687.00/- Fiesta(P): Rs. 72,409.00/- Linea : Was a new launch back then, Hence data not available. (Source: Autocar Spare Parts Price Survey, Issue: March 2009) |
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18th September 2009, 14:16 | #51 | |
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1. cost of the car (Alto may have cheaper spare parts than the Altis). 2. need for the spare parts (which is based on what is the quality standard of the original part). | |
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18th September 2009, 14:23 | #52 |
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| Anyone who has seen the car himself - how good are the City's interiors now? How does the quality of interiors compare with NHC? Sorry, if this was discussed earlier. I seem to have missed it. |
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18th September 2009, 14:36 | #53 |
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Absolutely. Please always consider how frequently a spart part will be required along with its cost to purchase and the labour to fit it in. |
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18th September 2009, 14:37 | #54 | ||||
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1. Fuel efficiency 2. Long-term reliability 3. Cheap service costs 4. Better resale 5. More days on the road 6. Superior durability : There is a reason I'm holding on to my 7 year ol' OHC Vtec for another 3 years. It performsn without a single flaw! You should also check Dippys immaculate 2003 OHC Automatic or my accountants '04 90,000 kms NHC. These cars age VERY slowly and thus, one can hold on to them longer. Ever wonder why so many taxi operators still buy the Innova over the 2 lakh rupee cheaper Xylo? The ANHC will work out substantially cheaper to own than the Verna or the Linea. I will run up a detailed statistical analysis of the ANHC versus SX4 (as the SX4 also enjoys decent resale and cheap cost of ownership), yet will not stop short of saying that the ANHC is worth everyone of those 1.2 lakh rupees more than the SX4. Better space, way better ride quality, more power, superior fit & finish and roomier interiors. Quote:
Fact ONE : Hondas have the cheapest service costs in their segment. My OHC service bills are lower than my humble Indigos. The Accord has service bills of 2,000 bucks (look up mine & Robins debate on the Skoda ownership thread), way lesser than cars costing 10 lakhs. Ajmat posted that, over 20 - 30K kms, his OHCs service bills were lesser than his wifes li'l Maruti. Fact TWO : Regular consumables. I paid 800 bucks for the timing belt and another 600 in labour for my OHC. The same job costs three grand for the Hyundai Accent (look up Shantanu's timing belt thread). Fact THREE : As Vasudeva rightly posted, the cost of the part is one thing, but what is equally important is HOW OFTEN the car requires replacement parts. Honda & Toyota, with class leading reliability, simply require lesser repairs. But yes, accident repair parts is where the Japs are more expensive than some (not all). I have another point on Honda's market philosophy: The Honda City, as we know it, is in its third generation in 10 years. What about its competitors from the late nineties? I still see the Lancer as I do the Accent & the Ikon in showrooms (the OHC 1.3 was comparable to Ford / Accent 1.6 in performance and price). Maruti sold the Baleno till only 3 years back. So, while the competition continues to sell its outdated horses, the only player in the C segment which has offered entirely new cars most frequently is Honda. Let us give credit where it's due instead of blind bashing. The latter is not befitting of Team-BHP. Last edited by Dippy : 18th September 2009 at 15:20. Reason: 2003 OHC :) | ||||
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18th September 2009, 14:52 | #55 |
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| It seems that at least customers in the US are ready to pay higher prices (and allegedly higher spare part costs) for Toyota and Honda, again and again. Either they are suckers or maybe they have a different sort of evaluation. These two companies have largely led the customer loyalty index, with >60% meaning that many proportion of existing customers will go on to buy from the same company again. Toyota led in 2007, but Honda overtook Toyota in 2008 with 64.7% of Honda owners replacing their vehicles with another Honda, according to the 2008 Customer Retention Study by J.D. Power and Associates. Toyota, the 2007 winner, placed second at 63.2 percent, followed by Lexus, Mercedes-Benz and BMW. Five Japanese brands were among the 11 brands above the average industry score of 48 percent. Another recently introduced JD Power metric is the New Customer Ratio or the conquest ratio. This says that Toyota, Lexus, Hyundai, Honda and Hummer are the US automobile industry's strongest brands. JD Power says a measurement below 100 in its index indicates that a brand is losing existing customers faster that it can conquest new ones. Only consumers who bought or leased their trade-in vehicle as new are counted in the index. For instance, the Ford brand has a new-customer ratio of 44 percent. That means it is losing twice as many existing Ford owners as it has new conquests coming in. About 53 percent of Ford owners buy another one, considered a healthy loyalty ratio. But that group represents 72 percent of the brand's retail sales. Thus Ford is unable to conquest new customers. Toyota has a new-customer ratio of 267 percent, which means it is bringing in nearly three times as many new customers as it has old ones staying put. Toyota's 63 percent loyalty rating is the industry's second best, yet represents just 41 percent of total sales. Its conquest sales are huge. Honda shows similar strong numbers. Chrysler, Jeep and Dodge show weak loyalty numbers. And they mostly conquest sales from each other, while leaching sales to non-Chrysler brands. Something similar is happening at Mercury, Pontiac and Buick. Luxury brands Acura, Cadillac, Saab and Volvo have trends seen as troublesome. Power says many of their conquests and defectors come and go from mass-market brands such as Toyota, Honda, Ford and Chevrolet. |
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18th September 2009, 15:12 | #56 | |
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18th September 2009, 15:14 | #57 | |
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18th September 2009, 15:54 | #58 | |
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On the lighter side, I hope no one from Honda is reading your comments for it will cement it in their minds that they dont need to provide any other feature at that cost . | |
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18th September 2009, 15:58 | #59 | |||||||||
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In next 3 months time, if ANHC increases or retains its market share, then kudos to Honda & its hard work for last 10 years. If not, then the trend & dynamics are changing in Indian market. Welcome to the competitive world. Quote:
OK. compare ANHC with SX4. Now both cost of ownership & Pricing are much much higher. SX4 has better service. Honda has average service. Quote:
By the same tokem my earlier humble Ford Ikon served me for 90000 kms for 6 years without change of any part & never broke down on road. It ran atleast 20,000 kms in interior rural Gujarat kutchcha roads. For me Ford Ikon reliability is as good as my Ikon piece's reliability. So, is Ikon as reliable as OHC Vtec? No, because reliability is measured in no.of defects in Lacs/ millions. Now there is a possibility that that 1-odd troubling piece comes to me. It can happen with Vtec, it can happen with any car. The probability varies. If its 1 defect per lac for vtec, it could be 2/3/4 times per lac for SX4/Linea/ others. I'm not saying Reliability is not important. Its very important but till a point. Quote:
PS: Rightly priced or overpriced also depends on individual views/ preferences & there is no end to it. The best way is to wait for 3 months to see whether the trends are changing or not. In next 3 months time, if ANHC increases or retains its market share, then kudos to Honda & its hard work for last 10 years. If not, then the trend & dynamics are changing in Indian market. Welcome to the competitive world. | |||||||||
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18th September 2009, 16:07 | #60 | |
BHPian | Quote:
I want a highly spec'ed car, but IMHO Honda has put some really dumb things in the car. Chrome looks good on a Harley or on a 60's American car (or an 80's Merc), but definitely looks stupid on a 21st century Japanese compact. And a head unit that cant play CDs and has no bluetooth functionality is a shame, given that its onw 2009. If you go aftermarket you get better features at a lower price, with additional goodies like a full set of pre-outs (for external amplification), time-alignment, graphic equalizer and high-pass and low-pass filters. Thanks for your responses. I can see that this car has really generated some strong opinions. Last edited by theEnd : 18th September 2009 at 16:08. | |
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