[karanraheja]

Originally Posted by CBlazer

I agree. I'm pretty unhappy with the way Honda goes about skimping on features, just because they can command the kind of premium. Forget ACC, alloys or fog lamps. It took them one year to re-launch the City SMT with better quality interiors. I'm sure they didn't need customer feedback to launch a car with good quality interiors in the 8-9L price point.

When NHC was in the market , the only threat NHC received that time was from SX4 which was loaded to the brim and better VFM. Till date Honda hasnt bothered to give ACC for a 10 lacs ANHC V MT which is roughly 2 lacs more than the SX4 ZXI.


@ GTO- Absolutely brilliant posts!! Superb analysis! Spot on!!!

[VahanPujari]

Before moving to Pricing/ Overpricing, I feel Honda has become increasingly reactive company. First it needed an SX4 to force it to start giving new features like Steering Mounted controls, ABS, Airbags etc. Then it needed a Linea to start giving features like Chrome handles, Alloys etc.

On Macro level, last 2 months sales analysis trends suggest that Indian buyers are getting increasingly aware on what they're getting from others & what they are not getting for Honda even after paying a premium. Even the strong City is declining. Sep/ Oct/ Nov trend will be interesting. And if City sales decline or the market share declines, the strong reason would be Jazz launch at those price points. Thats the point where it seems Honda has stretched so much that the thing broken & people started looking elsewhere.

If market welcomes these changes in City with a positive change in market share, then of course the pricing won't look "Overpriced". In other words; SX4, Linea starts looking "underpriced" for the value they offer. Thats the advantage of being Leaders, they set the benchmark.

Originally Posted by GTO

I'm quite intrigued by posts that comment on the ANHC being overpriced. On the one hand, you have some members who feel that the City has an inflated price tag. On the other, it is outselling its direct competitors, including those that come with a diesel engine! Clearly, the Indian market sees tremendous value in the Honda City. Yes, I will agree that the Jazz is overpriced, terribly at that, but in my books, the City is still the definitive all-rounder C segment sedan. And one that offers value. Of course, I'll be the first to say that Honda MUST sell the city with alloy wheels, climate control and a better grade of interior plastics. But by no means is it a car that is "glaringly" overpriced.

GTO,

While I agree with you on Cost of ownership for Honda to be lower, in absolute "price" terms, I tend to disagree & still feel its overpriced.

For a prospective buyer when he compares, he compares the most comparative versions/ variants. And its here that VMT (& not SMT) is to be compared with SX4 Zxi & Linea Emotion Pack. For there are features that are not available in SMT but are available in VMT & also SX4 zxi & Linea Emotion Pack. Some of these are...

Source: Honda website hondacarsindia.com
Alloy Wheels
Front Fog Lamps
Rear Fog Lamps (even VMT doesn't have this)

Then small but imp thingies like Chrome Door Handles, Side Chrome Strips, Bumper Protection Chrome strips etc etc

As you mentioned even VMT does not have below items:

Automatic Climate Control
Rear AC vents
Rear sunshade
Blue&Me
(not to forget a CD Player)

We can try to convince ourselves saying these are not important. But the abscence of these can not be taken as "Zero". It should be taken as "Negative'. Similarly, prescence of these should not be taken as "Zero" but should be taken as "Positive'.

When one takes all these into account, deducts for Negatives, adds for positives, the Price difference between VMT & SX4/Linea becomes very very high.

Even with all these negatives, I agree that Cost of Ownership might work out lower considering higher Resale Value vs Linea. However, that might not be the case vs SX4 as its resale value is comparable.

Originally Posted by asr245

I read from someone here that getting alloys from outside voids the warranty from Honda and getting alloys from Honda costs about Rs11000 for one (which of course doesn't void warranty).

Yes. I also read somewhere that Honda Alloy wheel set comes at around Rs. 50 K. Thats a big money.
Even Linea Alloy is Rs. 10,000/- per piece. But still it gives in Emotion Pack.
Thats why the comparison should be with VMT & not SMT

[srishiva]

@VahanPujari,
Honda did not include ABS and airbags in response to SX4. The "safety for everyone" initiative took care of this for new models (including ACE). Regarding content in its cars, its only the current generation civic that has vtec as standard across all variants globally. Alloys are not standard everywhere(even with others like Toyota). So its not true that they are milking Indian customers.

All said and done every company would love to see value for money just like customers would. For this a company would like to see right customers and customers can choose the right cars.

I don't believe the Indian market is big enough to provide healthy numbers to manufacturers consistently at higher price levels. We don't change cars often and we don't have a second hand car market that can support it to happen.

[oss]

Originally Posted by GTO

The Fiesta's size & pricing makes it more of a competitor to the Dzire than the larger Citys, Lineas, Vernas and SX4s. The interior confines are seriously limited. But sure, if you insist, I can work out a comparo including the Fiesta.

Fiesta is certainly larger than Dzire. It may not be as spaceous as City or Linea, but if Verna & SX4 can be included then Fiesta certainly needs to be considered as well.

Would appreciate a comparo including Fiesta.

To quote my own case, I owned a Swift Petrol for about 2.5 yrs, and driven my brothers Dzire for about a year now. I have waited for about 5 months for ANHC to be launched, and waited for another year for NANHC to be launched, but finally ended up buying a Fiesta Diesel.

Another point i want considered is the power in the usable RPM range. To me top speed at 6500 rpm is meaningless. Let us look at the torque & bhp in the 1500-5000 rpm range which is where most of us stay most of the time. Can we compare the roll-on figures than the 0-100 timings to bring out this aspect.

Originally Posted by GTO

At the end of the day, its the masses that decide the true meaning of value.


No doubt, I am not at all trying to imply that the City is perfect. On the contrary, it has many areas of improvement. However, as an overall package, it is still the best C segmenter (petrols).

As a overall package in the C-segment City is amazing, and certainly deserves a premium, but Honda is oflate overdoing it IMO.

What is more disappointing is having built a premium image and snob value, the kind of interiors they offered in the ANHC was rubbish to say the least.

Originally Posted by jesal

thats the point. i was going to get the civic earlier looking at the 17 lak cost now i am planning a city auto which is 12 laks. does the job for me. i would love the altis auto. but it costs 16.7 and is a 4 speed auto so for me i save a few laks and drive a 5 speed paddle shift auto.

A 4 speed or 5 speed automatic is more of a factor dependent upon the torque curve spread. The dip in the torque at 2500-3250 rpm range in the City necessitates 5 speed auto whereas Altis doesn't have that problem, so a 4 speed give equal performance with a 4 speed auto itself.

However when it comes to paddles, it's a different thing altogether

[VahanPujari]

Originally Posted by srishiva

@VahanPujari,
Honda did not include ABS and airbags in response to SX4. The "safety for everyone" initiative took care of this for new models (including ACE).

Whether we like it or not Honda gave ABS & Airbags only after SX4 gave it. Again when it launched ANHC last Sept, it did not give what all it's forced to give now (within a year). This clearly seems reactive.

Originally Posted by srishiva

Alloys are not standard everywhere(even with others like Toyota).

Its fine even if its not standard. No one is asking for it as standard. However, when we compare we should compare a version with Alloys with similar versions of other cars.

Originally Posted by srishiva

So its not true that they are milking Indian customers.

Thats subjective & debatable. Many here may not agree with that statement.

Originally Posted by srishiva

All said and done every company would love to see value for money just like customers would. For this a company would like to see right customers and customers can choose the right cars.

True. Thats why some companies look at opnly a few customers with very high profit margin from every customer, some other companies look at high sales numbers with low margin per customer & some companies look at penetrative pricing strategy.

Originally Posted by srishiva

I don't believe the Indian market is big enough to provide healthy numbers to manufacturers consistently at higher price levels. We don't change cars often and we don't have a second hand car market that can support it to happen.

If thats the philosophy, then it should have kept only 1 or 2 model variants like 10 years back

[pmbabu]

Something that I just recollected:

Visibility from the driver's position - In SX4 and Linea, visibility is somewhat obstructed due to the design of the A-pillars, which is not a problem with ANHC (or Verna/Fiesta). Another disadvantage in NHC addressed in ANHC.

What about the rear view visibility? I have read about SX4 issues, but am not aware of the other cars. Can someone throw light on this?

[wanderlustindia]

Originally Posted by GTO

I'm quite intrigued by posts that comment on the ANHC being overpriced. On the one hand, you have some members who feel that the City has an inflated price tag. On the other, it is outselling its direct competitors, including those that come with a diesel engine! Clearly, the Indian market sees tremendous value in the Honda City. Yes, I will agree that the Jazz is overpriced, terribly at that, but in my books, the City is still the definitive all-rounder C segment sedan. And one that offers value. Of course, I'll be the first to say that Honda MUST sell the city with alloy wheels, climate control and a better grade of interior plastics. But by no means is it a car that is "glaringly" overpriced.

Lets talk FACTS here and look at the ANHC objectively. Consider the pricing of the ANHC to its direct competition, the SX4 / Verna / Linea. Any informed car buyer, and ALL Team-BHPians, MUST always choose the variant with ABS & airbags. The safety benefits are invaluable, especially when driving in Indian road conditions.

Prices of first-available variant with ABS & airbags (ex-Delhi):

Honda City : 8,37,000
Maruti SX4 : 714,129
Hyundai Verna : 713,316
Fiat Linea : 723,991

Now, lets look at the equipment list. I've enlisted the typical features that matter:

Attachment 193154

ANHC : It is the "SMT" variant that comes standard with ABS, Airbags, drivers seat height & stereo.

SX4 : The variant with drivers seat height adjustment, airbags, ABS & stereo etc. is the ZXi.

Verna : The variant with keyless entry and ABS is the 1.6 SX VT. No airbags for the petrols at all! Does Hyundai think that petrol car owners don't value safety?

Linea : Variant with ABS & airbags & stereo is the Emotion PK. It must be added that Fiat rules the list with the goodies. You also have rear foot & knee aircon vents, rear curtain, blue&me etc.

Now, the most obvious equipment that the ANHC lacks are alloy wheels followed by climate control. To me, alloy wheels are more important than climate control. Cost = Rs. 18,000 for a set of 5.

On the other hand, what advantages does the ANHC offer, relative to its competition?

- The most powerful engine: A whopping 25% more power than the least powered competitor (The Linea) and about 15% more than the SX4 & the Verna. In addition, you get technology (iVtec), the BEST 0 - 100 times (10.xx seconds) and highest top speed. The Linea is the poorest performer here with a 0 - 100 time of 17.xx seconds.

- The best fuel efficiency: The ANHC is decided more fuel efficient than any of its 3 chief competitors, and nearly 15% more than the Verna. Of course, it is the lightest amongst competition too.

The lowest cost of ownership: The City's service costs vary between 600 - 1,500 bucks for most services, and go upto 5,000 only for the major services (4 - 5 times over 1 lakh kms). In an ownership of 1,00,000 kms, the City will be the cheapest to own by a mile. This is documented in several threads across the forum, Hondas have the cheapest upkeep.

The best reliability: Honda's reliability is way superior to any of its competitors, only the Verna comes close. The SX4 is built like the Swift (not a good thing) and while reliable overall, isn't quite in the league of a Honda or Toyota. Fiats come with their own share of niggles. My own OHC is now in its 7th year with 70,000 odd kms on the odo, yet visits the service station ONLY once each year for scheduled maintenance. Not a single major component has malfunctioned till date. Zero breakdowns too. Worldwide too, Honda's reliability is matched only by Toyota.

Excellent resale: Only the SX4 can match the Honda City in residual values. The Fiat Linea will tank in the after-market, ask me, I know a thing or two about European petrols which have fuel-efficient diesel siblings. The Verna petrol is a market flop.

It is safe to presume that if you own the car for 50,000 - 1,00,000 kms, the City's initial asking price premium of 1.2 lakh rupees is entirely negated by its reliability, cheap ownership costs, segment-best fuel efficiency and strong resale. Heck, bring the poor resale of some of its competition into the picture, and the ANHC may actually work out cheaper!! Remember, there is more to the cost of car ownership than just the asking price. A 1.2 Lakh premium, that is more than recovered (relative to the Verna & Linea), well worth it IMHO. And then, you have those additional horses to enjoy.

Lets look at the other factors that make a car:

- Performance : City > SX4 > Verna > Linea

- Fuel efficiency : City > SX4 > Linea > Verna

- Ride quality : Linea > City > Verna > SX4

- Handling : Linea > SX4 > City > Verna

- Interior space : City > Verna > SX4 > Linea

- Looks : Linea > City > SX4 > Verna (purely my opinion)

- Overall Fit / Finish : City > Verna > SX4 > Linea

- Features : Linea > SX4 > City > Verna

- Brand (for those whom it matters to) : City > SX4 > Verna > Linea

Interior part quality : Neither the City, nor the Linea or the SX4 have anything to write home about. Yet the Citys & Vernas are best screwed together of this bunch.

As you can see, the City excels in most areas, is mid-pack in some, but doesn't have any one serious deficiency. That's what makes it the most all-rounded C segment sedan (petrols) and the best seller from its direct competition.

P.S. Yes, I am a Honda and Toyota fan. Not based on their image or promotions, but on first hand experience with their products. I respect Toyota even more than I do Mercedes Benz (something that changed as my automotive knowledge grew). The reason : organisational detail, engineering precision, unmatched reliability & durability, all rounded products and efficiency. To finish first, you have to first finish.

This is brilliant stuff. I've always been a Honda basher, considering the fact that they charge a hefty premium over their direct competitors. It was disappointing to see the ANHC not offering alloys as standard, let alone optional. But I'd also go on to add that adding safety features like ABS and Airbags across all trims is something for which Honda should be given a pat on back.

But the analysis by GTO brings a fresh perspective to me. I'll have to be more careful about making sweeping statements regarding Honda from hereon.

P.S: Another factor that perhaps clinches the debate in favor of Honda is the fact that whatever they launch in India is in line with their international line-up (unlike some OEMs like Mitsubishi who are still content with the Cedia that is two generations old, I presume). Maybe that is what brings Honda repeat customers in hordes!

[Need4Spd]

Originally Posted by jesal

the city and civic sell more in autoboxs. all those comparisions are rubbished after that. if i want to buy a automatic car under 12 laks there is only one option the city. after that it is either the civic or corolla. people like me who do not drive manuals anymore will pay the premuim for the badge and buy a automatic. i will not buy a base corolla over a automatic city no matter what. i dont care about the snob value or show off. its daily driving comfort which by pressing the clutch in bombay traffic will never help.

I was going to make the exact same point. Today in the Indian Car market there are no viable options for an autobox sedan. It Starts with the City and goes UP in price from there. So for someone considering an Autobox car a "base model Altis" is really no option.

[amit27]

Analysis of this nature assumes that human beings are all ratonal people and we will act based on the logic presented to us unfortunately this is not true . Understanding consumer behaviour is more complex than a matter of excel sheet which has some comparative columns filled in . Let us look at some facts again

Accord : Outsold by Superb : Skoda has reputation for bad *** , Dealers which will cheat you and replace parts in your car which has come for service . A co . which does not care and all associated problems , still it outsells a reliable / proven Accord and I don't agree that it is Diesel factor .
Civic : Outsold by Altis 3 : 1 similar attributes of reliability but better percieved features however Jetta also outsells Civic completely illogical why a co. which has a negligble footprint of dealers and 1.5 yrs in India should outsell supposedly well established Civic .
City / Jazz Vs. Linea/ Punto : Linea/ punto combine is getting ~ 80% of sales of City / Jazz ccombine is it not strange that a co. which has been disgraced twice in a span of past 10 yrs. and has reentered market only 8 months back and to top it all has products which have poor interiors and has niggles should move up so quickly and reach within striking distance of market leader .
Overpricing / Lack of features can be syptoms of something deeper may be reliability / Resale value is getting out of fashion like Manmohan Desai's Lost & Found formula

[theEnd]

Needed to clear some doubts about the ANHC, as I've suddenly become a prospective customer (was holding out for a top end VW Polo, but suddenly I cant wait anymore for a new car).

1. Does the car have disc brakes at the rear?
2. How easy is it to remove the integrated head unit and replace it with an aftermarket HU? (no CD player? what were these guys smoking?)
3. Can the new chrome handles be removed from the door and swapped for the old non chrome ones? Or is it part of the door?
4. How much would I get for the alloys and tyres that Honda sells the ANHC V-MT with? I want to upgrade and upsize to aftermarket alloys immediately.
5. How clunky are the air-con controls? I'll be upgrading from a Swift Zxi which does have automatic climate control, and this will be the only downward move for me in this change.
6. Do the sideview mirrors (left and right) have electric controls for adjustment (like on the Civic) or is it a little plastic stick that you have to move around with your own hand?
7. What is the real 0-100 km/h timing of the ANHC MT (from a trusted source please)? How does it compare with 1. Honda Civic MT, 2. Ford Fiesta 1.6S, 3. Cedia, 4. Corolla Altis, 5. NHC VTEC, 6. OHC VTEC.
8. What's the recommended wheel/tyre upsize? Priorities are that first it should look good, second, good cornering, and third that it shouldnt break my back when going over a small pothole. (I have 205/50/R16s on my Swift and I find that to be ideal)

Sorry for the barrage of questions. Thanks in advance for your answers.

[ImmortalZ]

Originally Posted by theEnd

Needed to clear some doubts about the ANHC, as I've suddenly become a prospective customer (was holding out for a top end VW Polo, but suddenly I cant wait anymore for a new car).

1. Does the car have disc brakes at the rear?

No.

Originally Posted by theEnd

2. How easy is it to remove the integrated head unit and replace it with an aftermarket HU? (no CD player? what were these guys smoking?)

You can swap out the built in player with the dash kit for the E-MT which comes with no audio at all. Expensive to source from the dealer though.

Originally Posted by theEnd

3. Can the new chrome handles be removed from the door and swapped for the old non chrome ones? Or is it part of the door?
4. How much would I get for the alloys and tyres that Honda sells the ANHC V-MT with? I want to upgrade and upsize to aftermarket alloys immediately.

Might as well buy the old car then. You don't need half of the new features.

Originally Posted by theEnd

5. How clunky are the air-con controls? I'll be upgrading from a Swift Zxi which does have automatic climate control, and this will be the only downward move for me in this change.

Define clunky.

Originally Posted by theEnd

6. Do the sideview mirrors (left and right) have electric controls for adjustment (like on the Civic) or is it a little plastic stick that you have to move around with your own hand?

Electric.

Originally Posted by theEnd

7. What is the real 0-100 km/h timing of the ANHC MT (from a trusted source please)? How does it compare with 1. Honda Civic MT, 2. Ford Fiesta 1.6S, 3. Cedia, 4. Corolla Altis, 5. NHC VTEC, 6. OHC VTEC.

See GTO's post and do your own research. AFAIK:

ANHC - 10.xx (See GTO's post)
Civic - High 9s. (9.6 and 9.7 is what's bandied about on the web for our detuned car. JDM 1.8 version hits 8.9). I've stopwatched my A/T at 10.5s without a proper launch.
Fiesta 1.6S - 11.43 (Ford press release)
Cedia - 10.2 (ACI)
Altis - High 9s by websites. I saw a Toyota press release quoting 11.46, but that can't be right. Probably for the 1.6.

No idea about the NHC/OHC VTEC figures. The OHC was a really light weight vehicle, so I expect it to dispense the 0-100 in less than 10s.

Originally Posted by theEnd

8. What's the recommended wheel/tyre upsize? Priorities are that first it should look good, second, good cornering, and third that it shouldnt break my back when going over a small pothole. (I have 205/50/R16s on my Swift and I find that to be ideal)

Time to head to the Tyres/Alloy section.

[pmbabu]

Originally Posted by theEnd

3. Can the new chrome handles be removed from the door and swapped for the old non chrome ones? Or is it part of the door?
4. How much would I get for the alloys and tyres that Honda sells the ANHC V-MT with? I want to upgrade and upsize to aftermarket alloys immediately.

Why not just buy the S-MT?

[asr245]

Originally Posted by theEnd

1. Does the car have disc brakes at the rear?

No.

2. How easy is it to remove the integrated head unit and replace it with an aftermarket HU? (no CD player? what were these guys smoking?)

Don't know but do clarify that installing after-market devices (and not from the dealer) like above do not void you of the warranty. I have heard about such claims being made but don't know how true it is.

4. How much would I get for the alloys and tyres that Honda sells the ANHC V-MT with? I want to upgrade and upsize to aftermarket alloys immediately.

Again check for warranty if you are interested in keeping it.

6. Do the sideview mirrors (left and right) have electric controls for adjustment (like on the Civic) or is it a little plastic stick that you have to move around with your own hand?

electric controls

7. What is the real 0-100 km/h timing of the ANHC MT (from a trusted source please)? How does it compare with 1. Honda Civic MT, 2. Ford Fiesta 1.6S, 3. Cedia, 4. Corolla Altis, 5. NHC VTEC, 6. OHC VTEC.

I doubt you will find such a trusted time here. Some mags have reported ANHC MT 0-100 times as between 10.00 - 10.5secs. I believe Altis too is in the same range. OHC VTEC did 0-100 in less than 10.

8. What's the recommended wheel/tyre upsize? Priorities are that first it should look good, second, good cornering, and third that it shouldnt break my back when going over a small pothole. (I have 205/50/R16s on my Swift and I find that to be ideal)

If I were looking to change I will go for 185/65/R15s but my criteria might be very different. I would just want something a bit wider at the same profile which adds to a little more GC.

[pmbabu]

Originally Posted by amit27

Accord : Outsold by Superb : Skoda has reputation for bad *** , Dealers which will cheat you and replace parts in your car which has come for service . A co . which does not care and all associated problems , still it outsells a reliable / proven Accord and I don't agree that it is Diesel factor .

Did Accord sales go down? Or did Superb expand the segment? I suspect it is the later.

Civic : Outsold by Altis 3 : 1 similar attributes of reliability but better percieved features however Jetta also outsells Civic completely illogical why a co. which has a negligble footprint of dealers and 1.5 yrs in India should outsell supposedly well established Civic .

Well, yes, Civic sales is really affected by Altis. Before Altis (from Toyota arrived), there was none to challenge Civic w/ or w/o features. Proving that only Toyota can challenge Honda.

City / Jazz Vs. Linea/ Punto : Linea/ punto combine is getting ~ 80% of sales of City / Jazz ccombine is it not strange that a co. which has been disgraced twice in a span of past 10 yrs. and has reentered market only 8 months back and to top it all has products which have poor interiors and has niggles should move up so quickly and reach within striking distance of market leader .
Overpricing / Lack of features can be syptoms of something deeper may be reliability / Resale value is getting out of fashion like Manmohan Desai's Lost & Found formula

This is how one can combine unrelated statistics to prove a non-existent point.

Jazz is overpriced, period. One wonders how still they are able to sell those many cars, though way off their own target.

City still outsells every other car in its segment, Diesel variants included (and combined for the same brand, ex: Linea petrol+diesel), period.

[GTO]

WAAH *rubbing hands with glee* Some really healthy discussion in here. Taking it point by point.

Originally Posted by rrsteer

OT, but you can add the Indians to it - Tata and now even Mahindra with the Xylo

You betcha. The Indica & Indigo offer phenomenal space for the segment, while the Xylo takes the interior room battle right up to the Innova. However, Mahindra's packaging WRT the Scorpio is poor. For instance, I'm not even a 6 footer, and yet cannot fit entirely comfortably in the driver seat. Neither is the middle row legroom anything to write home about.

Originally Posted by mkc15

I agree that Altis is almost a complete car in the segment, but Civic is quite tickling too!

The Altis appeals to the head just as the Civic pulls the strings to your heart. I'll work up a comparo in the near future.

Originally Posted by Gilead

I had a question regarding your comment on European petrol cars' poor resale. When the majority of the market prefers petrol, how come diesels hold up their value better over time?

European cars are heavy to start with. Plus, Europe really isn't about small fuel efficient petrols as much as they are about diesels. Now, add to that the fact that diesels have traditionally been more robust (compared to petrols) and some Euro manufacturers have lost their edge in reliability over the past decade.

Thus, the reason that European petrols suffer from poor resale in India:

1. Heavy + not engineered for fuel efficiency. Bad FE numbers. Simple comparo : The Skoda Octavia 1.8 gives 7 kpl in the city while its diesel sister is capable of 13 kpl. Which do you think the used market will tilt toward? Or the C Class : C200 petrol about 6.5 kpl and the C220 diesel 11 - 12 kpl.

2. European diesels have cutting edge diesel technology. The diesels are as quick as (if not quicker than) their petrol siblings, 40-50% more fuel efficient and guaranteed long termers (engine life).

3. Long term reliability : Euro diesels have proven more robust than their petrol counterparts. Just ask the owners of petrol Fabias, Octavia RS, Merc C200K etc.

[quote=amit27;1488421to spoil the party human beings are not alwyas rational we want more from our life always and can't always go by what our hearts ( excel sheets ) tell us. [/quote]

Relevant to this comparo, doesn't the Honda City appeal to the head (cheap upkeep cost, reliability, best in class fuel efficiency, strong resale) and to the heart (quickest performance, most powerful, H badge)?

If car market has to behave fater looking at comparo we will have a 100% Maruti market .

Well, Maruti is the most dominant player in the 3 lakh, 4 lakh and 5 lakh hatch segment as well as the 7 lakh sedan segment. Add to that their market share of 40 odd% and I'd say objective comparos do count. The Indian customer is exceedingly discerning, and is overall much more sensible than most give him credit for.

This is reflected in changing dynamics Fiat with niggles become more involving and people become more enamoured by its features and ride quality . When they look at Honda City they find it underequipped .

As stated earlier, the most glaring ommissions are alloy wheels & climate control. Simply no justification for that, agreed. But then, Honda & Toyota have NEVER been about features worldwide. Toyota example : a 12 lakh Innova till 2008 was sold without climate control. And the 20 lakh Fortuner, look up my report. No rear discs, USB input stereo, lumbar support seats, telescopic steering or air-con volume control for 2 million rupees! They've always had competitors like Hyundai etc. undercutting them on price and offer features (study the worlds largest car market = the USA). The money you pay for is for that added value of better quality & engineering under the hood. That's precisely why they also enjoy amongst the most superior residuals. If you want features for your money, sure, go to Hyundai. If you want the best engineering & durability in the class, go to Honda & Toyota.

Consider the all-roundedness of the Honda City to its competition and why it is the segment leader in sales. The SX4 : Loosely fitted parts, STIFF ride within the city, 4 seater (thanks to center arm rest of rear bench). Verna : Wallowy ride quality (just ask Sam) and pathetic handling. Linea : Neither is the petrol fuel efficient nor is it fast (quite the contrary with a 0 - 100 of 17.xx seconds), has its own share of niggles, and interiors aren't really intelligently packaged.

And all this talk of Fiat and its features, lets get this right. Fiat NEEDED to re-enter the market with some USP. This is a brand that has come out of nowhere, nearly collapsed and it was literally a do or die situation. Full marks to them for launching terrific products with a long equipment list and a fab diesel engine (Linea + Punto diesels are still my choice in their segments), yet we need to understand the dynamic difference between Fiats situation and that of the other three competitors (City, SX4 and Verna). Maruti, Hyundai & Honda have far superior brand value, the result of many years of hard work, and naturally don't find themselves in a situation similar to Fiats. If you want to build a strong brand, work for it and prove yourself over a longer period of time.

Originally Posted by srishiva

In comes the Fortuner and it automatically checks the right boxes which I expect a Toyota to give me. No more thinking.

Spot on! The Fortuner gives you lesser features than the Endeavour or even the Grand Vitara! Hec, the Endeavour 3.0 Automatic is cheaper by 50 grand! Yet, it is a resounding market success thanks to the brand, solid engineering, durability, long-term reliability, all-roundedness of product (not a single major flaw in engineering) and we can safely presume : respectable resale.