[RX135]

Originally Posted by Ajay_J

Good excuse. Whenever it comes too sales figure many guys repeat the same old rant "Its better car but indian junta does not understand the hitech technology behind it". Come on guys...There is no space for excuses now. Its sell the product or get out from market. No other manufacturer is crying foul over it. If HONDA made same excuse would they be selling CITY like they are ? They are not afraid of competition from MUL, they are taking it heads on, and succeeding. So is Hyundai and TATA. They are eating into Maruti's pie slowely but steadly.lts open market let the best win. For god sake dont blame indian junta for failure of a product/brand.

No need to get hyper, my friend!

I do not own Fiat company or sell a Fiat, so no need for me to give excuses on behalf of Fiat.

When and where did I "blame" Indian Junta? What I talked about is what you'll hear from any average Joe buyer, that is perception about a Fiat car/company. Not talking of typical sales pitch that you are talking of.

And I don't think Fiat is giving any excuses either. They came up with 2 good cars and have increased their sales by 400% albeit on very small number to start with. Fiat is working with TATA for A/S/S, which has been Achilles heel for them. So they sure know what they are doing and gaining success too.

But, expecting Punto to take on Ritz in sales NOW is grossly unfair expectation, irrespective of how good of a car it may be. No management wizard can do that overnight.

[anupam00]

My vote definitely goes to Punto,

Although i understand people refrain from Punto due to Fiat,

But the only advice i would like to give is Fiat has improved a lot infact in regards to service or spare parts & Above all at this point of time -the kind of a maturity automobile industry has in india no car requires spare till at least 50 k so u might come to a conclusion what time frame you have for actual spare, the only requirement is good service which fiat is currently performing & infact are improving day by day when it comes to spare & above all Multijet is same for all manufacturer so irrelevant u buy Fiat,Tata or Maruti so spare availability is there.
The only constraint is spare with respect to Body, Suspension etc so most of the persons have said that Fiat has a solid build so that answers that as well.

The only constraint is the resale value of Fiat cars so people who are looking out especially for resale might go for maruti brand but do think over the speed or pace at which car manufacturer are entering indian market do you really think that car's would have high resale after five years, I doubt

Rest all your descrition.

Thanks & Regards
Anupam

[DCEite]

Originally Posted by ashwinpak

Maybe you haven't driven enough cars other than the tall boys. I started driving in an OMNI, and then graduated to a Santro. And by then, I was so obsessed with the tall seating that I was looking at only tallboys to buy. But then (it was in 2003), after I couldn't find any "good" (in terms of style, safety, comfort etc) tallboy, I bought a not-so-tall-boy. Now, after driving it for 4 years, I won't look back at a tallboy again. Easiness of ingress and egress is just a perceived advantage, in reality nothing like that exists. You drive in more comfort in a 'normal' car than in a tallboy.

Sir, even though i have been driving for only about 6 years, i have had experienced low slung cars like M800, Alto LXi, Esteem and Getz many times. And for day to day traffic i would any day prefer a Tall boy like Santro/i10/WagonR to any of these. This is my personal preference and you cannot impose your views on me. You prefer low slung i prefer tall boy - to each his own. Period.

Read today in a regional newspaper that 1 person each die every two minutes in road accidents. So sad. Eventhough the Govt has made helmets mandatory for two wheelers, they do nothing to enforce safety in cars. It is time, govt act and boot out those unsafe cars from the roads.

What has the above statement to do with the topic at hand, or tall boy cars? Are you trying to say that all toy boy cars are as safe as OMINI ? Sorry but this sounds very premature. I would have expected something better from you.

Originally Posted by asr245

I agree with responsiveness and FE as Ritz is lighter. Buttt... have you tried the rear seat in your WagonR? I have one too and I find those really uncomfortable. It's like a bench. My wife agrees. And we found this in in-city drives around NCR. So this is the first and last of the tall boys for me.

And the Ritz is plain ugly while Punto is gorgeous.

Why bring WagonR into Ritz v/s Punto sir? I was talking about Ritz back seat, and not wagonR's. Or are you trying to say that all tall boys have similar back seat comfort ?

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

And you may never move over tall boys if this is all you need from a car. No i20, Swift or Punto for you.
I would not get into arguments on the build and interiors..... the rattles after a few year will say it all.

First thing that why should i really bother to "move over tall boys" ? Just because Fiat doesn't have one in its Kitty ?
And if ever i would need to move from tall boys, there are better cars (IMO) than Punto available in the market, two of which you mentioned yourself.

Heck i would much rather upgrade to the much taller Scorpio or Safari from a tall boy hatch . That would be a true upgrade. Why bother with B+ segment hatches at all?

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by DCEite

First thing that why should i really bother to "move over tall boys" ? Just because Fiat doesn't have one in its Kitty ?
If even i would need to move from tall boys, there are better cars (IMO) than Punto available in the market, two of which you mentioned yourself.

Heck i would much rather upgrade to the much taller Scorpio or Safari from a tall boy hatch . That would be a true upgrade. Why bother with B+ segment hatches at all?

How did Fiat came into picture? Did I say anything about Fiat or Punto in general? The virtues if your tall boys also becomes their weakness and that why I said move over tall boys, until you are young and have no problems with ingress and egress.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by HIGHNOON

So diesel sales:

Ritz DDis: 1,865 units.
Punto MJD: 1,356 units.

Umm, its shooting with your eyes shut to go by such unfounded statistics. Firstly, the Punto 1.3 MJD is not a cheap hatch. Second, their 3.99 offer was on the 1.2 petrol (which is an engine of choice for many a hatchback customer). Assuming that 80% of all Punto sales will be the diesel is in line with other assumptions (including Maruti's own research) that 70% of the Ritz sales will be from the diesel. Proven wrong, you bet! Remember, the most unpredictable buyer on planet earth is I - the Indian car customer. There is an equally good chance that the petrols make up 40 - 50% of the Punto's sales.

I will try to source the exact information from either manufacturer. But lets not start commenting & believing these numbers for now.

Originally Posted by misquitas

To repeat what he said: "Most of the people buying a Ritz or Swift will like the Punto but they will always buy the Maruti cars because the deciding statement will always end with "Punto is a better car but it's a Fiat."

The crucial word is not the 'car', but the 'manufacturer'.

Originally Posted by RX135

Not entirely sure about it. Amit has made a very valid point.

Nope, the crucial part is also his assuming that most people will end up concluding that "Punto is a better car". And that's the part that I disagree with.

As highlit in my review, I do think that the Ritz makes better sense (car versus car) for the type that drive primarily within the city:

- Lighter controls. Easier to drive.
- More fuel efficient
- Quicker
- Easier ingress / egress
- Better quality interiors. And fit / finish.
- Smaller turning radius
- Superior gear shift quality

I reiterate that, if I were looking for a diesel car, I'd choose the Punto myself (I love the hatch). But if my father / non-petrolhead brother / girl etc. wanted a self-drive hatch, the Ritz would be better suited to them.

Hey, we have so many BHPians who bought a Ritz. And they clearly believe that the Ritz is better for them. Just go back to the last page!

If we look at the forum poll, 80% people think that Punto is better than Ritz.

But of course. Butttttttttttttttt we are enthusiasts whose priorities are way different than that of the typical Indian car buyer. Though there is a certain amount of representation, it is by no means decisive.

But, when time comes to put the money on the table, most of these 80% folks will back out just because it's a FIAT.

Each of their replies varied a bit, but all of those explanations had something to do with the image of the company.

And why not, may I ask? Maruti has sold MILLIONS of cars in 2 decades and still emerges as one of the leaders in customer satisfaction. Brands are not built overnight, but with endless hard work. If the brand equity of Maruti works to its advantage, I'd say its well deserved. And why only Maruti? Even Hyundai, Honda, Toyota etc. etc. enjoy a massive competitive advantage on their brands. Again, if they earned the trust of the most colourful market in the world, one that includes varying levels of income, religion, language, location, education, cultures et al, they must have done many things right.

Similarly, Fiat made a lot of guffaws in the past decade and is clearly paying the price for it. The market did NOT destroy Fiats brand equity in India, Fiat did it themselves. They are working hard to make amends, no doubt, and do realise that its an uphill task. They better do whatever it takes to win back the confidence of the Indian customer (no mean feat!).

1) Ritz is a Maruti. So it has better resale, better FE (perceived), better A/S/S. Neighbour has it and my dad, uncle, aunt, cousin, nephew, in-law has it.
2) What is Punto? Is that a car? (Most likely response when you utter word Punto).
3) Oh..a Fiat car? But Fiat are those taxies in Mumbai, and my grandpa had one.
4) Oh, I know Fiat cars. My friend had a Palio GTX. It was soo fast, but it guzzled fuel like anything and he sold that 6L car for 1.5L. I don't want to touch one with a bargepole.

And an equal amount would reason the same way that I did earlier:

As highlit in my review, I do think that the Ritz makes better sense (car versus car) for the type that drive primarily within the city:

- Lighter controls. Easier to drive.
- More fuel efficient
- Quicker
- Easier ingress / egress
- Better quality interiors. And fit / finish.
- Smaller turning radius
- Superior gear shift quality

Originally Posted by VahanPujari

GTO,

Still, isn't brand a very very important parameter in car buying decision-making process?

It is, and deservedly so. Same pattern around the world and across all products / services, not just cars. As I said earlier, if Maruti is able to sell cars based on the "Maruti" name, it is very well deserved.

Would it have made difference to the Sales Charts?

C'mon Vahan, both of us know it would make a hell of a difference. Again, this can extend to most products & services for any formidable brand in any industry.

Originally Posted by asr245

Buttt... have you tried the rear seat in your WagonR? I have one too and I find those really uncomfortable. It's like a bench.

The Ritz backseat is better than that of the WagonR. Liveable. Atleast until the roads get bumpy. That's when the rear is bouncy / choppy.

Originally Posted by RX135

They came up with 2 good cars and have increased their sales by 400% albeit on very small number to start with.

200% agree. The Punto & Linea, both, are excellent cars in their respective segments.

Buttttttttttttttttt lets not forget that the product was never really a problem with Fiat. The Palio was awesome for its time and the Petra 1.6 100 BHP for 5.5 lakhs was highway robbery. That 1.9D was also a robust, fuel efficient and very driveable unit. It's the other stuff (image, aftersales, cost of ownership, customer satisfaction etc. etc.) that Fiat goofed up on. I'm happy that their recent activities (tieup with Tata, acknowledging mistakes + making amends etc. etc.) are a step in the right direction. But there is clearly a long way to go. I am a firm believer in the fact that a competitive market leads to better products / service for customers, and have seen the enthusiasm of the Fiat guys in person, sincerely hope that Fiat makes it through this time.

[DCEite]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

move over tall boys, until you are young and have no problems with ingress and egress.

ET, Please do not give me your unsolicited advice, i can live without it.
I will drive whatever i feel like, you keep your preferences to yourself. Period.

Originally Posted by GTO

Umm, its shooting with your eyes shut to go by such unfounded statistics. Firstly, the Punto 1.3 MJD is not a cheap hatch. Second, their 3.99 offer was on the 1.2 petrol (which is an engine of choice for many a hatchback customer). Assuming that 80% of all Punto sales will be the diesel is in line with other assumptions (including Maruti's own research) that 70% of the Ritz sales will be from the diesel. Proven wrong, you bet! Remember, the most unpredictable buyer on planet earth is I - the Indian car customer. There is an equally good chance that the petrols make up 40 - 50% of the Punto's sales.

.......................

Excellent post, GTO, and very well put.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by asr245

Buttt... have you tried the rear seat in your WagonR?

Sorry, I didn't want to get into a counter argument here, buttt . . have you tried the one in Punto?

I'm fairly tall, and when I adjusted the front seat of Punto to be comfortable, the rear seat could not be used. My friend could not get in!

Now it's for you to believe it ... or not.



Arguments in this discussion are going all off the point?

Punto is a better car, but it is a Fiat?

What is a better car?

This car loses on all counts other than handling capabilities (that the engine can not exploit) and ride quality (when there is no space to sit but a deep boot!)

[VahanPujari]

Originally Posted by GTO

I reiterate that, if I were looking for a diesel car, I'd choose the Punto myself (I love the hatch). But if my father / non-petrolhead brother / girl etc. wanted a self-drive hatch, the Ritz would be better suited to them.

Brilliantly put & this statement says it all !!

Originally Posted by GTO

C'mon Vahan, both of us know it would make a hell of a difference. Again, this can extend to most products & services for any formidable brand in any industry.

No doubt that Maruti fully deserves the brand advantage for brand can not be built overnight & it takes years of hardwork to put it thro'.

But then, when someone earlier mentioned Ritz is a better car than Punto (generalised statement) refering to the much higher sales figures of Ritz than Punto, then its only fair to say that Ritz as a car has a huge advantage of Maruti Brand & Punto as a car has a huge disadvantage of Fiat brand. And its a glaring Fact & a Reality. I'm not saying for a moment which one is better or worse car for that depends on individual preferences & requirements. If Ritz enjoys the brand advantage, well thats also a very very important parameter in deciding a car as a package.

Originally Posted by GTO

Buttttttttttttttttt lets not forget that the product was never really a problem with Fiat. The Palio was awesome for its time and the Petra 1.6 100 BHP for 5.5 lakhs was highway robbery. That 1.9D was also a robust, fuel efficient and very driveable unit. It's the other stuff (image, aftersales, cost of ownership, customer satisfaction etc. etc.) that Fiat goofed up on.

Absolutely. Hence, Sales Figures alone in isolation can never be a true indication of a Car (Product) whether its a better product than the other Car or not. Alongwith Product, Sales Figures (Market offtake) depends on a host of other parameters like image, aftersales, cost of ownership, customer satisfaction etc.

Originally Posted by SLK

I'm fairly tall, and when I adjusted the front seat of Punto to be comfortable, the rear seat could not be used. My friend could not get in!

This car loses on all counts other than handling capabilities (that the engine can not exploit) and ride quality (when there is no space to sit but a deep boot!)

Well, these are quite exaggerated statements & you've clearly gone overboard there.

Suggest you look at various Punto Ownership reports & TD reports of those who have done detailed & extensive TD's like GTO, sidindica. You'll not come across such sweeping conclusions or anything near it.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by VahanPujari

Well, these are quite exaggerated statements & you've clearly gone overboard there.

Suggest you look at various Punto Ownership reports & TD reports of those who have done detailed & extensive TD's like GTO, sidindica. You'll not come across such sweeping conclusions or anything near it.

All I'm saying is, all those who are talking here should test drive themselves.

Anyways if GTO's report is to be the benchmark, here's the summary. What did I miss? Oh I guess I forgot to mention "Stunning design" and 5 star safety, my apologies for that.

Originally Posted by GTO

What you'll like:

• Stunning design. Easily the most stylish hatchback on our roads today
• Solid build quality
• Fuel efficient diesel
• Mature & superb ride quality
• Outstanding high speed dynamics. The new benchmark (amongst hatches)
• Perfectly calibrated & weighted power steering. Deserves a mention here
• 5 star safety, ABS & airbags (even on the diesel variant)

What you won't:

• Rear bench space. Cosy interiors by big hatch standards. Not an Indica Vista
• Interior fit, finish and quality are strictly average
• Low FE of the petrol
• Lack of outright performance (diesel). No high powered engine (a la Palio 1.6 100 BHP)
• Engine noise at speed (petrol and diesel both)
• Service network not a match of say, Maruti or Hyundai

[VahanPujari]

Originally Posted by SLK

All I'm saying is, all those who are talking here should test drive themselves.

And your sweeping exaggerated statements says it all - who should be said to do a Test Drive again.

Originally Posted by SLK

Anyways if GTO's report is to be the benchmark, here's the summary. What did I miss? Oh I guess I forgot to mention "Stunning design" and 5 star safety, my apologies for that.

See, dude its not a question of what you missed (though thats also mentioned below), its what you exaggerated as below. I said those statements will not be found in a serious, detailed & extensive TD.

Originally Posted by SLK
I'm fairly tall, and when I adjusted the front seat of Punto to be comfortable, the rear seat could not be used. My friend could not get in!

This car loses on all counts other than handling capabilities (that the engine can not exploit) and ride quality (when there is no space to sit but a deep boot!)

Now, since you insisted, lets see what you "missed" from GTO report (If its not a benchmark, its actually an exhaustive, detailed, serious & unbiased TD report, Am I wrong here?)

Step inside and there is adequate space for 4 adults (with an occasional 5th passenger thrown in).
It's more spacious than say a swift, albeit by big hatch standards, the rear legroom can best be termed as adequate.

While the Engine is not a scorcher, its also not that's to be written off totally:

The best seller will undoubtedly be our national engine : The now ubiquitous Fiat 1.3 multi-jet diesel
Power delivery is more linear than in the Swift (no sudden surge),
1st & 2nd ratios are short, urban driveability satisfactory and gear changes within the city are minimal. On the open road (and highways), this engine is more a cruiser than a scorcher.

The 1.4 liter DOHC 89 horsepower petrol needs to be worked to perform (115 nm @ 4,500 rpms), and it's a heck of a lot of fun to. The petrol is smooth and revvs freely all the way to its 6,600 rpm redline (ain't no Palio 1.6 100 BHP machine though). Driveability is better than in the Honda Jazz 1.2, the 2nd gear pulling clean from 10 kph (with 3 passengers & full luggage onboard) all the way to 80 kph, and proving to be a vital tool within the city. Even the 3rd pulls clean from in-town speeds. The engine sounds awesome at high rpms (classic Italian engine sound), however the noise gets unduly loud at speed and regular joes (non-enthusiasts) will find it very annoying. I love driving hatchbacks and thoroughly enjoyed putting the 1.4 petrol through her paces for 300 fast kms!! The revv-counter is metered till 7,000 rpms without any redline markings

On the highway, the Punto can simply smother the worst of roads without breaking into the smallest sweat. Behaviour is big car like and simply put : no other hatch can match! Just like the Linea, this thing loves corners with the chassis exuding its poise proudly. Let's start with the steering : Perfectly weighted & amongst the best hydraulic units I've ever used. The steering is firm at 0 kph parking manouveurs, medium-light within the city and weighs in supremely well at speed. Slight body roll can be felt, not enough to make a big difference. Straight line stability is akin to that of a premium sedan, @ flimsy tall boys : please make way for the leader. Skoda's Fabia was the benchmark for highway road manners till date....that's entirely history now. Or let me put it another way : At 130 kph in my OHC Vtec, I'm on my toes. At 140 kph in the Punto, I'm yawning.

[Ravveendrra]

I have been following this thread but have not voted as I have not TDed either car. I have not TDed as I am not looking to buy a car now.

I have seen both cars up-close and both seem pretty ok to me in terms of equipment, space etc. This thread seems to have degenerated to the usual raucous level of anti-Fiat and pro-Fiat slanging match.

Why should Fiat leave India, just because a few of us do not like their cars or have never experienced their products or service based on reports of others? If that logic be applied, no brand can continue to exist in India as there will always be proponents and detractors for every brand.

While I have not driven a GP or a Linea, I have followed them on the roads - keenly observing their behaviour and while they are not scorchers who left me far behind to eat the dust kicked up by them, I have not found them to be slow and as observed by GTO and others, they handle themselves impeccably.

Another bone of contention seems to be the rear leg room. The rear leg room in the GP is nothing to write home about, as highlighted in the report is is 'adequate'. Nothing more, nothing less. A friend and I checked out the rear space with one of us in front and another in the rear. For average persons, the rear leg room with the driver's seat set for an average to slightly above average height person (5'9") is definitely adequate. It is only if the driver or the passenger behind him holds some kind of record for being tall, or the driver has a bad sitting/driving posture that there might be a problem. The problem stems not so much from the actual space available as from the design of the back of the front seats.

About it being a Fiat - Fiat was in this country much before most of us were born, courtesy government policies they had to be here via Premier Automobiles, A.S.S. was sketchy but nothing more was required for those cars, many of which survive to this day. The new Fiats with their electronics need better equipped workshops but are still sturdy cars which do not require much maintainence, in fact their service interval is longer, much longer than any other car in their class.

If someone likes, or does not like Fiat, it is their opinion and they are entitled to it and perhaps nothing will or can change that opinion. Decency however demands that all of us remain civil and refrain from making offensive or sweeping statements.

Cheers,

[HIGHNOON]

[quote=DCEite;1406495]

Hi DCEite,

Do you own a Ritz ? How good is it for tall ( 6ft. / plus ) broad folks? From the point of knee room & shoulder clearance ?
How is the suspension for somebody tall with a back problem ?
Getting in and out ought to be good but how good is the ride say as compared to your wagon r ?

regds ,
Kedar

[comfortablynumb]

Originally Posted by GTO

Buttttttttttttttttt lets not forget that the product was never really a problem with Fiat. The Palio was awesome for its time and the Petra 1.6 100 BHP for 5.5 lakhs was highway robbery. That 1.9D was also a robust, fuel efficient and very driveable unit. It's the other stuff (image, aftersales, cost of ownership, customer satisfaction etc. etc.) that Fiat goofed up on.

Going a bit OT here with a question to all MBAs / managers on the forum - Has Fiat's India story become a management case study in some MBA college or corporate management training centre, about how to shoot yourself in the foot despite having very very good products?

Cheers,
Vikram

[asr245]

Originally Posted by SLK

Sorry, I didn't want to get into a counter argument here, buttt . . have you tried the one in Punto?

Actually I have. With my driver's seat position (I am 5'9"), i found it reasonably comfortable (not the best though) - much better than a WagonR. Haven't tried a Ritz. Don't intend to either. It's way too ugly for me to do that. As someone here said (and I agree), it's factory dented. It's like as if the designer was fired before he/she could complete the back and they decided to end it there.

[SLK]

Originally Posted by VahanPujari

And your sweeping exaggerated statements says it all - who should be said to do a Test Drive again.

Ok, peace.

I'm obviously not going to test drive again! Already bought a Ritz.

My statement might seem exaggerated, but this is what to me was a fact from the test drive. I drove it myself, so I got to believe it more than what I read anywhere.

Again, it's just my opinion, I can't push it on you or anyone here, and you can't take it away from me.

No further arguments from my side. Just a suggestion - please drive/try yourself.



Disclaimer: No one should not buy Punto based on my statements. (hope this helps)