[mroptimist]

Originally Posted by venkateshkm

Yes, Toyota has been very arrogant.

Nobody disagrees with your comment, definitely not me who has owned 4 Toyotas in as many years.

Toyota tested the Indian market's maturity by introducing Qualis. Had we rejected Qualis perhaps we would have got other world class products from Toyota, but we didn't. But Toyota also pulled the plug on Qualis the month Qualis saw it's best monthly numbers, one can call it arrogance but now we know that it was far farsightedness. Had they sold Innova & Qualis together they would have definitely got some numbers initially but that would have spelled doom for Innova.

Look at Hyundai, even after introducing Verna they continue to sell Accent. Even after introducing Eon they continue to sell Santro. In my opinion this is shortsightedness which might hurt Hyundai in the long run.

Toyota doesn't believe in knee jerk reactions. They are sleeping giants who obviously need to come out of their slumber no doubt.

But pricing alone is not going to ensure that a car will succeed.

What happened to Sunny - after initial euphoria died down it's not selling as much as Nissan would like to. Why?

Evalia compared to Innova is definitely cheap but it's a confirmed sales dud. Why?

Only having great cars at good price points doesn't ensure success. What about support.

[Nitrous Power]

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

Their current portfolio has not a single car which will turn heads on the road, except may be the fortuner (due to its sheer size and road presence only)

Honda is much better than toyota in the looks department with comparable reliability, I think.

Historically Toyota's design policy is not aggressive at all. All of their cars are more of understated but classy looks. And even when they launch all new models, they are always more of evolution of existing design theme. Whereas, Honda's design are little tilted towards sportiness. And lately all new Toyota's are looking much sportier, at least in international market. But, agreed that Honda's are better lookers than Toyota.

AFA Reliability is concerned, I would rate both of them equally good. However, Consumer Report of USA lists Toyota as more reliable than the rest

They need to bring in RAV-4 with diesel heart and 7 seater option right away. They also need to get New Corolla as soon as it is launched in international market. And for C segment, they need to introduce Yaris twins.

[zwift1819]

Toyota when launched in India with the Qualis at that time some called it "the mortuary van" and the so called van sold like anything as there was no other car available in that segment to beat it apart from the Tata sierra, sumo and safari. These cars miserably failed as customers fell for the Toyota brand even though the safari and sierra had good looks when compared to the Qualis. The launch of Qualis probably hit sales of Sierra and Tata decided to stop production of a good looking car at that time.
Toyota probably thinks what ever junk which is abandoned elsewhere in the world will sell in india just because of their brand value and that's where they launched the Etios and Liva cars and which never took off well and is now popular with the taxi segment. But still many people including me own one just for the Toyota reliability.

As said the Fortuner is the only car which looks good in the Toyota stable in india currently and these guys need to work hard on the hatch back segment as this accounts for the max sales in a country like India. Toyota are you even listening?

[drmohitg]

Some points which have been stressed upon in various other threads too. Here they are:
1. It is grossly unjustified to blame Toyota for launch of a ugly looking Qualis. I don't understand what people are trying to say here. A company launched a car and it sold like crazy. Basically established the company in India. And the car was so good that even today you can see a good many number of Qualis on the roads and there used car market value is way too high compared to other cars of similar age. So why are we blaming Toyota here and for what? Its we who bought there offering, however bad it was.

2. The other usual statement that Toyota cars are not good looking apart from the Fortuner. Here are most of there offerings in India:
a. LC, Prado and Fortuner: Exceptionally good looking
b. Camry: Certainly good looking
c. Corolla Altis: Good looking car.
d. Etios: Bad looking car but then cars in that segment are not known for there looks.
Not even one car in that segment really sets the charts on fire in the looks department.
e. Liva: Decent looks if not the best. Certainly not the worst looking car in its segment.
Then why all this hoopla about boring looking cars?

3. The Etios and Liva were made from scrap for developing markets. So we cant call them as junk from other countries brought into India.

Coming to Toyota's plans for India:
They should focus on 2 segments as of now in terms of new car launches:
1. A capable sedan in the C+ segment to compete in the 10L price bracket.
2. A MUV on the lines of Ertiga which can be priced at the 10L bracket. Although this might eat into the sales of Innova.

[Nitrous Power]

Originally Posted by zwift1819

These cars miserably failed as customers fell for the Toyota brand even though the safari and sierra had good looks when compared to the Qualis. The launch of Qualis probably hit sales of Sierra and Tata decided to stop production of a good looking car at that time.

I don't understand how come you say that Toyota is providing junk in India. You have to understand the that any and every car manufacturer will launch the product keeping the market in mind. When Toyota launched Qualis, even though it was not good looking vehicle, it was miles ahead then competition in terms Reliability, Passenger Comfort and Creature Comfort. It provided exactly what was lacking in so called handsome UVs like Sumo, Safari etc. And even Toyota replaced Qualis with latest generation Innova even though Qualis was selling in decent numbers. Maruti is selling multiple generations of outdated Alto under different models, that is called selling outdated junk to Indians.

At the same time, I agree that they went wrong with Liva/Etios. Having said that, they are not junk cars at all. Toyota needs to provide better interior and see the sales chart.

[2000rpm]

Toyota cars not junk at all!!!! Very Very high reliability. The point that some people here are trying to make is that, toyota cars in India lack the "Oomph" factor.

Like Hyundai achieves the brownie points for the feature list, Maruti after sales network, Honda - Looks / Brand / Reliability. Toyota on the other hand, is a balanced offering in all aspects.

So if you rank car manufacturers on different parameters Toyota will most probably feature in the top 2 for reliability only and not other departments (respective segments)

For Example: In the C+ Segment

- Looks - Cruze / Civic
- Performance - Cruze
- Reliability - Altis / Civic

Others please share their views on this hypothesis

[rajshenoy]

Originally Posted by mroptimist

Nobody disagrees with your comment, definitely not me who has owned 4 Toyotas in as many years.

Toyota tested the Indian market's maturity by introducing Qualis. Had we rejected Qualis perhaps we would have got other world class products from Toyota, but we didn't. But Toyota also pulled the plug on Qualis the month Qualis saw it's best monthly numbers, one can call it arrogance but now we know that it was far farsightedness. Had they sold Innova & Qualis together they would have definitely got some numbers initially but that would have spelled doom for Innova.

Look at Hyundai, even after introducing Verna they continue to sell Accent. Even after introducing Eon they continue to sell Santro. In my opinion this is shortsightedness which might hurt Hyundai in the long run.

Toyota doesn't believe in knee jerk reactions. They are sleeping giants who obviously need to come out of their slumber no doubt.

But pricing alone is not going to ensure that a car will succeed.

What happened to Sunny - after initial euphoria died down it's not selling as much as Nissan would like to. Why?

Evalia compared to Innova is definitely cheap but it's a confirmed sales dud. Why?

Only having great cars at good price points doesn't ensure success. What about support.

I share similar thoughts. Qualis was a big hit.. but among taxi drivers and same thing applies even today. Innova or Etios are mostly bought for same reason still

Stopping Qualis over Innova was a strategic one as Toyota felt Cabbies still want cheap and reliable over feature set.

I guess same thought process created Etios twins, but this time their target was families and this is where they miscalculated our market. I too wish we had Rejected Qualis(It was pretty modern for those days).

[microaubin]

Originally Posted by mroptimist

Toyota tested the Indian market's maturity by introducing Qualis. Had we rejected Qualis perhaps we would have got other world class products from Toyota, but we didn't.

Absolutely agree with you. With the success of Qualis and Corolla, Toyota has established itself in the Indian market like no other carmaker has. Look at its competition at that point of time...Skoda, Honda and more recently VW, Renault, Nissan are nowhere near it.

Still owning the first generation Corolla launched in India, I feel its got better quality interiors, more space than the current Altis. Compare the interiors of a 6 year old Skoda with a 10 year Corolla, the Corolla will win hands down.

This is where Hyundai has been raising the bar. Its interiors has gone from scrappy to upmarket. Compare an Eon, i10, i20, new Verna, new Elantra to the Santro, Accent,old Verna and old Elantra and the difference is just amazing. After all a car can be used only from the inside right?

But Toyota is still stuck with a ten year old interior while its interiors in developed countries are far better. Imagine what better interiors can do to the sales figures of Etios and Liva. Toyota seriously needs to buckle up on their interiors when they are taking 15 + lacs of our hard earned money.

Coming to reliablilty, currently owning a Corolla and an Innova no other brand can give you such peace of mind and hassle free experience compared to other similar brands without burning a large hole in your pocket.

[desertfox]

I agree. Corolla in Diesel as well as Petrol has a lot of potential and a basic model should be launched priced very close to Nissan Sunny.

Toyota is different in concept. It may not have the looks of a Honda, but technically it is far far ahead of Hyundai. There is no comparision. Just good looks cannot make a car reliable. Toyota is a solid car where a customer can be sure of a 10 year hassle free experience.

Is that true of Hyundai ? Never. I have driven Hyundai prima stellar, it was terrible. Hyundai Accent the cheapest car then for Dhs. 26,000 about Rs. 3,38,000 in Indian money today that time it was more like Rs. 2,21000. Companies bought it because for this price just give 24 cheques against a purchase order, and the car will be delivered registered in company name.
Then I had a fully loaded Sonata version 3 which looked like a BMW from the front. Was it reliable ? Never. This was purchased again on PO and cheque for Dhs. 48,000 about Rs. 4,80,000 in those days ( 1997 ).

Look at the other side - Toyota Corolla most reliable taxi vehicle anywhere in the world.
Camry - I have seen with my own eyes dozens of Camries with over 350,000 KM on the ODO in Dubai Transport with nothing wrong. In the same category Renault Laguna, Chevvy Lumina, Ford Taurus, Hyundai Sonata, Mazda 626, Ford Contour, Dodge Intrepid, Mercedese 220 E and Pegueot 406 failed completely. This was done to be fair to all car dealerships but within 100,000 km of taxi run where cars are often driven 500 to 600 Km in 24 hours by two shifts of drivers they failed. Honda had said they are not interested in Taxi business unless the service is done at their dealership and rates and preferred to stay out of the first order of 1200 cars each. Such is Toyota. And the Pathans - they kept driving their Corolla and Cressida ( later Camry ) taxi for years and years and years.
Look at Saudi Arabia the most popular cars were Caprice Classic ( Impala ) and Cressida. Now both are gone and it is Camry alone followed by GMC Sub-Urban ( petrol is still 6 Rs. a litre there ).

Look at my personal history with Toyota Vehicles.

Prado LC 90 LWB 1999 - 315,000 KM never had trouble never stranded.
Prad0 LC 90 SWB 1998 - 284,000 KM never any trouble.

Out of the above two about 250,000 KM was driven off road.

Landcruiser 100 4.8 V8 - 2002 - 2009 - 220,000 KM no problem ever.

Toyota Corolla 1.6 Super SE Saloon ( my wifes ) - 1993 - 2001 48,000 KM no problem ever

Toyota Camry - 2004 - 2005, 40,000 KM no hassles at all.

Toyota Yaris - 2006 to 2010 - 14,000 KM never a problem

As for the Etios - It is the future of Indian entry level saloons. In the Middle East too Yaris Saloon and hatchback were launched together.

The Etios may have different engines in terms of diesel or the suspension would be tweaked to pot holed Indian roads but externally or internally there is no difference.

If I have to buy a 5-6 lakh hatchback without thinking twice about VW Polo or Maruti Swift I will go straight and buy Toyota Etios Liwa with it I buy peace of mind for 10 years, That is what Toyota is the best engineered and the most reliable car in the world.
If there was a competing Toyota Product to Bolero, Scorpio, MM550 I would not even had looked at Mahindra.

[rohanjf]

Prado, Camry, Corolla are all world class products. They are designed to meet the strict safety standards of Europe and/or US. And they are sold here pretty much the way they are sold in other countries (I assume, looking at the way they fare in accidents).

The same cannot be said about Etios twins. The important aspects of automobile development are: looks (interior and exterior), visible quality (interior and exterior), performance and safety. I have observed that manufacturers cut cost in safety when they design cars for emerging markets (that is, markets that do not have strict safety standards). Unfortunately, most customers who prefer safety, assume that safety starts and ends at ABS and airbags. That's how Etios twins were born. Unfortunately, we cannot blame Toyota because they are just giving what 90% of the customers want. Fortunately, Toyota has not compromised on reliability. Whew!

I am not sure, but I feel we can also apply the same arguments to Innova and Fortuner too.

In future, I am sure Toyota will launch more cars on Etios platform in India, since the platforms employed in Europe/US cannot help in reducing costs.

[getsurya]

That is what Toyota is the best engineered and the most reliable car in the world

Hi Deserfox,

This is the precise reason why I am looking for a Toyota Fortuner as my next car. I have plonked similar monies over two Scorpios over 8 years of ownership. So, now I have decided that I shall 'invest' upfront into a Toyota SUV and enjoy the ownership for next 8 years!

[amalji]

Myself switched from Maruti ( Zen and Esteem ) to Toyota ( Etios and Liva ). After using it for 2 years and 38,000 kms ( Etios ) & 15,000 kms ( Liva ), I can easily understand why they are regarded so highly the world over. The beauty of a Toyota lies inside. Every part is designed keeping in mind its utility and durability. Aesthetics is given only a neutral priority. Makes sense when you buy a car for 10 years.

Before buying, I had a lot of apprehensions especially with support ( since, we were used to Maruti ). But, after the switch, I can confidently say that there is no car in India that is cheaper to maintain than an Etios/Liva ( yeah, the list even includes an Alto ). Everything inside a Toyota is designed to last a life time.

[mroptimist]

Last week when I was taking delivery of Innova VX, Head of Sales Amana Toyota had something interesting to share about TKM's future plans.

He said that TKM will be showcasing their prototype 7 seater MUV (to be positioned below Innova) built on Etios platform at the 2014 Auto Expo which will be competing with Ertiga. They don't have any plans to introduce Avanza in India (may be because it doesn't come with a diesel engine anywhere in the world.

[JayPrashanth]

Originally Posted by mroptimist

Last week when I was taking delivery of Innova VX, Head of Sales Amana Toyota had something interesting to share about TKM's future plans.

He said that TKM will be showcasing their prototype 7 seater MUV (to be positioned below Innova) built on Etios platform at the 2014 Auto Expo which will be competing with Ertiga. They don't have any plans to introduce Avanza in India (may be because it doesn't come with a diesel engine anywhere in the world.

This strategy makes sound sense. With the so-called "premium" Innova is getting pricier each passing year, the space for an MPV in the price range of the Ertiga is something that Toyota will find hard pressed to ignore.

Please try to wheedle out more information on this development. Rumours of an Etios-based MPV have been around for long, only for Toyota to deny it time and again.

The people mover segment in India promises to get quite crowded with the likes of the Honda Mobilio, Datsun Go+ and even perhaps the WagonR MPV making the cut in the coming months. Now, an Etios MPV could join the party.

Cheers,

Jay

[CARDEEP]

AS per a report in ACI, 2015 Toyota Etios will be a completely new design, little similar to one at present. More details here:

http://www.autocarindia.com/auto-new...ng-373218.aspx

In addition to the redesigned sedan, the company is also considering other body styles on the Etios platform, which include the compact SUV - Etios Cross.