[sunilch]

Originally Posted by M00M

Yes sorry I did. But completely agree with your post. Each government complains but does nothing to rectify. BJP got GST but won't have petrol diesel in it . Half hearted attempt.

Haha, it was not a half hearted attempt but rather a well planned one - the idea to exclude drinks and fuel out of the GST ambit for a while. The implementation of GST was not done properly for sure and it kind of slowed down the economy for a while but them India is large and complex, and we are learning as we are growing.

-- It was required that states should accept the GST idea and implement the plan as otherwise it would have remained a pipe dream. These two product categories give them their maximum share of tax revenues and hence they were happy to go ahead with the idea.

-- They can't reduce their total income out of these and hence can't apply the stated max rate of GST - 28% on these. They need a higher tax rate to match their current tax income from these two categories. A higher GST slab only for these would have alienated people and would have turned the sentiment against it as that would have made things more transparent in terms of how these are taxed in the hands of the common man.

-- GST was advertised as an efficient and transparent tax which was supposed to replace all other taxes and be end consumer friendly.

-- Central and State governments share the GST collections in a ratio and hence the Central government was not that impacted by not including these in the GST ambit for the time being. For them, the implementation and acceptance of GST was of more important at that time.

-- Over time GST will for sure get applied on Fuel but not until 2019. No need to give other reasons to create issues and also alienate the partner regional governments. They only need to figure out a way to charge higher fees on these product categories or a formula to keep the states happy. The government is toying with the idea to have a common tax structure for vehicle registration and use across the country but then RTO departments of individual states are not happy as they will lose a lot of power and secondary income. It will simply our life by bringing in transparency but will of course bring in some unemployment

[condor]

Petrol Prices from the past: Note 2013. 83 Rupees a litre. Compare to now.

https://iocl.com/Products/PetrolDomesticPrices.aspx

Originally Posted by swissknife

Taxes from fuel helps run the country/state. This would not be let go very easily.

If not anything else, modernization of the armed forces. Operational readiness is not good. Many measures have been taken, but we still have a way to go. Good thing is that, at least now we are not running on too much subsidy unlike the past. There are many other places I save -eg, my med bills are down 35%. Many other things are cheaper. Just the fuel and travel ( by private buses). One other point is - FE is little less, but that's to be expected due to the traffic we have today.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by condor

Petrol Prices from the past: Note 2013. 83 Rupees a litre. Compare to now.

Yes, I will compare to now.

Then oil price was 108$ a barrel. Now it's 71$ a barrel.

In Rupee terms, oil price was then Rs. 6850 per barrel.
Now it's Rs. 5000 per barrel.

But at the pump, petrol prices are higher now.

[k149in]

Originally Posted by condor

Petrol Prices from the past: Note 2013. 83 Rupees a litre. Compare to now.

Thanks for the URL. Do you know if there is any URL that will detail taxes, subsidy and crude prices along with the petrol prices as listed in the URL you have provided?

[condor]

Originally Posted by k149in

Thanks for the URL. Do you know if there is any URL that will detail taxes, subsidy and crude prices along with the petrol prices as listed in the URL you have provided?

Cant recall a link with all these parameters. Will share if I can find. But that would be a little difficult too, with the variations in taxes across the states.

End of the day, we dont really have much choice than to reconcile with higher prices -
1) 80% of crude is imported.
2) currency exchange rates
3) Overall spendings required at national level. Hopefully with many reforms being undertaken ( widening tax base, GST etc). GST has already started showing benefits with many traders finally declaring much higher incomes. Farm sector reforms will slowly reduce the burden from loan waivers. Financial sector reforms will reduce leakages and losses. These and many other factors are all inter-connected and the net benefits will come. Not in next couple of years, but it will.


But here's one article that brings in some more data and another perspective.

https://freefincal.com/india-petrol-...al-price-data/

Originally Posted by carboy

Then oil price was 108$ a barrel. Now it's 71$ a barrel.

In Rupee terms, oil price was then Rs. 6850 per barrel.
Now it's Rs. 5000 per barrel.

Dont miss the subsidies that were there when oil price was 108$. I remember one link on this too - let me search for that.

[longhorn]

Subsidies were miniscule on diesel and zilch on petrol. Remember diesel prices getting hiked by 50 paise every month till the subsidies were wiped out. Most if not all of the subsidy went to LPG and kerosense.

[condor]

Originally Posted by longhorn

Subsidies were miniscule on diesel and zilch on petrol. Remember diesel prices getting hiked by 50 paise every month till the subsidies were wiped out. Most if not all of the subsidy went to LPG and kerosense.

Subsidies were high on diesel, & LPG and less on petrol.

Even that 50 paise increase per month did not reduce subsidies nor did it go to the seller ( Iran is one). Instead Oil bonds were used, and this had to paid later ( in last few years).

[ksameer1234]

Originally Posted by condor

Instead Oil bonds were used, and this had to paid later ( in last few years).

Indeed, these oil bonds were key reason why fuel prices were kept artificially low and de-linked from market prices. While it may have kept inflation low temporarily, the bigger damage that happened was that we fell back on EV curve. With deregulated prices and no subsidies, who knows how we would have taken to EV adoption. Those were the days when small and big firms tried very hard to push electric scooters.

Originally Posted by longhorn

Subsidies were miniscule on diesel and zilch on petrol. Remember diesel prices getting hiked by 50 paise every month till the subsidies were wiped out. Most if not all of the subsidy went to LPG and kerosense.

While government didn't directly pay subsidies, it doesn't mean they were nil. Oil companies like ONGC were shelling out lakhs of crores (link: https://www.thehindubusinessline.com...le23090999.ece) and so were IOCL, BPCL, HPCL. It didn't matter which pocket the money came from, it was all taxpayers'.

[longhorn]

Originally Posted by condor

Subsidies were high on diesel, & LPG and less on petrol.

Even that 50 paise increase per month did not reduce subsidies nor did it go to the seller ( Iran is one). Instead Oil bonds were used, and this had to paid later ( in last few years).

Originally Posted by ksameer1234

Indeed, these oil bonds were key reason why fuel prices were kept artificially low and de-linked from market prices. While it may have kept inflation low temporarily, the bigger damage that happened was that we fell back on EV curve. With deregulated prices and no subsidies, who knows how we would have taken to EV adoption.

While government didn't directly pay subsidies, it doesn't mean they were nil. Oil companies like ONGC were shelling out lakhs of crores (link: https://www.thehindubusinessline.com...le23090999.ece) and so were IOCL, BPCL, HPCL. It didn't matter which pocket the money came from, it was all taxpayers'.

To keep things easier, LPG was and is subsidised even today. With that out of the way, petrol was deregulated during UPA 1 or 2, I'm not sure, but it was done and dusted long before diesel was touched. This is the key reason why there was a difference of around Rs 22 between petrol and diesel once upon a time and the Swift diesel set the sales charts on fire.

UPA 2 under Veerappa Moily, brought the policy of increasing diesel prices at the rate of 50 paise every month till subsidies were removed and then diesel would be deregulated as well, moving in line with international prices. It was supposed to be done with in under a year. Unfortunately for them, oil prices started sky rocketing and crude hit 110 dollars, so this policy could not be taken to its logical conclusion during UPA 2.

NDA continued the same policy, but luckily for them oil prices started declining soon after NDA came to power. Oil prices crashed and soon enough moron Jaitley replaced petrol price with excise duty and went on to ensure that taxes were more than the cost of the product itself.

The term subsidy itself is a misnomer here. They were never selling the product below cost. It is only to cover the notional losses incurred had the product been sold to international markets. The so called bonds were cancelled out against the profits to be paid to the govt from public sector oil companies.

Payments to Iran being withheld were because the banking channels were closed by USA, hence whatever could be bartered were bartered and money for the rest were held in an escrow account if I'm not wrong. Its not like the money was not set aside like the NDA are trying to project.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by longhorn

Payments to Iran being withheld were because the banking channels were closed by USA, hence whatever could be bartered were bartered and money for the rest were held in an escrow account if I'm not wrong. Its not like the money was not set aside like the NDA are trying to project.

Exactly, we even tried a bank in Germany to route the money to Iran but that too was stopped later by the US government, its not Congress did not want to pay the money or just gulped it down their throats, its just that channels were closed and now the current gov is projecting it like it was a debt, disgusting.

[lurker]

Originally Posted by condor

Subsidies were high on diesel, & LPG and less on petrol.

Even that 50 paise increase per month did not reduce subsidies nor did it go to the seller ( Iran is one). Instead Oil bonds were used, and this had to paid later ( in last few years).

Fact is:
1. GoI is corrupt/bankrupt/revenue deficient/ill managed (considering resources at hand)/lacks proper project mgmt capacities to hand hold or lead country to ALTERNATE FUEL SOURCES like hydrogen, electric/has no compassion for common public/has very big budget deficit between revenue and income with no idea how to sort them/doesn't have a clue on how to increase exports through make in india and increase export income/have bureaucrats that are habituated to takimg easy way out of any economic hurdles ahead.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by condor

Dont miss the subsidies that were there when oil price was 108$.

No, I didn't miss it - because by this time, subsidies on Petrol were removed already.

Originally Posted by condor

I remember one link on this too - let me search for that.

Please do.

[400notout]

Originally Posted by longhorn

NDA continued the same policy, but luckily for them oil prices started declining soon after NDA came to power. Oil prices crashed and soon enough moron Jaitley replaced petrol price with excise duty and went on to ensure that taxes were more than the cost of the product itself.

Very factually stated. I remember very well the last year of UPA where I had paid 85 for petrol. But that time the crude prices were real high compared to the 86.93 i paid yesterday when crude is still not close to what it was then. Later the prices were bought down during election period. The present govt was fortunate enough to get lower crude prices. But instead of passing the benefit to people they taxed it exorbitantly and enjoyed the windfall. Alas once you set your budget on a higher income , it's not easy to live with lesser money. Same is the condition of the Govt now, they can't make do with the revenue reduction.

Like another member stated, the prices would continue to rise till 2018 end and come down during election season temporarily till the next govt comes in.

I'm apolitical but I hope common folks look at the ruling parties more objectively than emotionally.

[MBstoTBs]

Originally Posted by condor

For all those complaining about fuel prices:

Crude prices will rise, and so will fuel prices. The shouting will only get louder, but them people will not look at the affordability. Many dont mind spending an easy couple of thousands for a day out at the mall and movies, but will complain about paying another 50-100 at the bunk when they top up.

Noone at the mall forces you to spend couple of thousands there. You can hang around in air conditioning all day and not spend a rupee. Fuel is not only used by petrolheads, but farmers, truckers, commuters everyone.

While the crude has risen in past few months - it is still far lower than it was in 2015. Also, OMC's profit margins have risen multiple times, as has tax rate. So high crude price cannot be automatically thought of as the reason for the hikes weve been seeing since 2016. There's only one way prices are going - up. This govt is also into slaughtering citizens with taxes, so it can announce sops pre election.s

[condor]

Originally Posted by MBstoTBs

Noone at the mall forces you to spend couple of thousands there. You can hang around in air conditioning all day and not spend a rupee. Fuel is not only used by petrolheads, but farmers, truckers, commuters everyone.

I am not too far away from farmers even today. Both family and outside. I have not heard them complain even partly as much as I see some folks, who regularly travel abroad, and yet are complaining about the increasing fuel prices.

About couple of other points in your post, I have already posted about those. So wont repeat.



About choices - that is the point: Where a person has a choice he will go ahead and spend. Even it a cup of coffee is a few times the price of a litre of fuel. If Starbucks increases the price, hey - no big deal. But even the fuel price is not in control of people, but here they will complain. Even if the coffee is purchased more often than the car is topped up.