[mahadev_kc]

When I filled the tank yesterday, it was displaying 737 at IOC pump, Kodigehalli, bangalore. Question is what is the ideal figure?

[Rehaan]

Originally Posted by Mp421b

What should be the ideal display on the meter for unadultered fuel?

Originally Posted by mahadev_kc

Question is what is the ideal figure?

The denser the better (the higher the number the better).

I googled "Density of petrol" to see what the average figure was, and 3rd on the list was this very informative link

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ent-fuels.html

cya
R

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by nitrous

You beat me to it.
its been over a month since i've been gassing up in these pumps. the fuel bunk guys don't know what it is...
i've noticed marginal variations of about 3-4% between midday and night fillings.

Are we seeing a trend of generally better fuel FE reported in cooler places like Kashmir compared to Rajasthan. Can anybody comment on that?

[silver_shadow]

today i filled up petrol in my bike from an IOC pump on sarjapur road near HSR layout bangalore. normally i've been filling my bike & car with petrol from this pump - xtrapremium till today when i decided to try the normal unleaded stuff in my bike.

i *think* the bike *feels* a bit rougher than while using the premium stuff, but i'm not entirely sure.

but more importantly, i noticed that the pump had these LEDs below the rupees and liter indicators. one LED which was on said "invalid density" next to it. to the right of the LEDs was a digital readout which was supposed to give the exact density of the petrol in kg/m3. it was indicating "unreadable".

now i never noticed this on the other pumps at the same station while filling premium, but i was wondering whether anyone knew whether it was common to see this not working. because if it is indeed working normally, then this would be a clear cut indication of fuel adulteration. if this is the case then we could easily tell which pumps to avoid unless there is an emergency.

[Crazy_Eddy]

The IOC bunk near the Chennai airport used to have density meters running much much earlier (they've stopped now).

Funny thing was, when they first installed those meters.. the density for the XtraPremium blend would be a bit higher than the regular unleaded.. and things flipped over sometime later. Now the question is - Which was the right one?!

[jkdas]

Originally Posted by mahadev_kc

When I filled the tank yesterday, it was displaying 737 at IOC pump, Kodigehalli, bangalore. Question is what is the ideal figure?

Wasnt there an LED which glow red or green?

Originally Posted by silver_shadow

today i filled up petrol in my bike from an IOC pump on sarjapur road near HSR layout bangalore. normally i've been filling my bike & car with petrol from this pump - xtrapremium till today when i decided to try the normal unleaded stuff in my bike.

Remember the reading? 400?

[Rehaan]

Originally Posted by silver_shadow

...one LED which was on said "invalid density" next to it. to the right of the LEDs was a digital readout which was supposed to give the exact density of the petrol in kg/m3. it was indicating "unreadable".....

Maybe they have disconnected the sensor or "oops its broken" on purpose so that the customers dont know what they are getting.

For example - you still filled up though the readout said "unreadable", but you probably would not have filled up if the readout said "648" (~100 less than the acceptable limit) right?

cya
R

[silver_shadow]

the reading showed something like "J000"

not sure what to infer from that.

[LLL]

Originally Posted by Mpower

Are we seeing a trend of generally better fuel FE reported in cooler places like Kashmir compared to Rajasthan. Can anybody comment on that?

The FE data from Kashmir/NE & Rajasthan could have been analysed if the fuel quality was same and same amount was dispensed from the pump. Due to adulteration and cheating while filling fuel, any study will not give true results.

[silver_shadow]

Originally Posted by silver_shadow

today i filled up petrol in my bike from an IOC pump on sarjapur road near HSR layout bangalore. normally i've been filling my bike & car with petrol from this pump - xtrapremium till today when i decided to try the normal unleaded stuff in my bike.

i *think* the bike *feels* a bit rougher than while using the premium stuff, but i'm not entirely sure.

but more importantly, i noticed that the pump had these LEDs below the rupees and liter indicators. one LED which was on said "invalid density" next to it. to the right of the LEDs was a digital readout which was supposed to give the exact density of the petrol in kg/m3. it was indicating "unreadable".

now i never noticed this on the other pumps at the same station while filling premium, but i was wondering whether anyone knew whether it was common to see this not working. because if it is indeed working normally, then this would be a clear cut indication of fuel adulteration. if this is the case then we could easily tell which pumps to avoid unless there is an emergency.

more on this: the other day i filled up at the same place. this time xtrapremium - it was 786. is that ok? i noticed it was showing this same number 2-3 times recently so i'm guessing that it is alright.

[Dr.Sumit Bhatti]

The Density Display at H.P.C.L. Petrol Pumps is part of the Veeder-Root System which also has an Automatic Tank Guaging (A.T.G.) touch screen interface located in the Sales Cabin. It displays the amount of fuel in the respective tanks, it's temperature and density (corrected to 15 degrees Centigrade automatically) and is connected to a H.P.C.L. Computer / Supply Terminal. Since it is sensitive enough to respond to 10 liters (ideal) to 35 liters (seen in practice) changes in underground tank volume, it should be impossible to mix adulterants directly without H.P.C.L.'s knowledge. However, most adulterants, if any, will have been be mixed prior to delivery.
B.P.C.L. Pumps have displays incorporated into the dispensing unit and do not have separate large displays.
A Dealer has to ensure that the Density / Specific Gravity of the fuel received is within +/- 000.30 of the Density recorded on the Invoice before emptying the Tanker. This is done with calibrated glass hydrometers and alcohol thermometers and Density conversion to 15 degrees C as per A.S.T.M. (American Standards of Testing Materials) Tables provided.
Higher the Density you fill at, higher is the weight and energy that you purchase in return for your hard earned money.
What is needed in India is introduction of ATC ( Automatic Temperature Compensator) for example visit the website of Dresser Wayne (from which most of the new H.P.C.L. dispensing units have been sourced) and look under retail accessories. An ATC retrofit / enabling of built-in fuel temperature sensor will ensure that you receive the correct quantity of fuel irrespective of the time of the day that you fill at.

[mithun]

I've seen some pumps at Cochin with density display. So there is no point in filling at early mornings !

[Dr.Sumit Bhatti]

Originally Posted by mithun

I've seen some pumps at Cochin with density display. So there is no point in filling at early mornings !

The density display will change whenever new stock is added. The final reading will depend on the density and amount of new stock added.
Underground temperature does not exactly reflect ambient temperature in real time. There will always be a time lag. Similarly, such a time lag follows the seasons as the earth heats and cools at a different rate as compared to the seasonal temperature.
Adding to this is the temperature inertia of the existing stock and the newly added stock of fuel in the underground storage tank.
Sunlight also heats up the pipelines from the underground tank to the fuel dispenser.
This makes the matter complex for both the petrol dealer and the customer.
A few decades ago, this problem of temperature correction was minimal because fuel depots had underground storage tanks too. Hence the temperature difference in supplies to petrol pumps from underground tank to underground tank did not vary much as ground temperature is fairly constant in a small geographic area. Petrol depots were very near petrol pumps.
Now large depots have been shifted out and have above ground storage tanks. The temperature of the supplies can be as high as 45 degrees ! (Sunlight and agitation during transport further increases the temperature)
If this hot fuel is pumped into a customers' tank (remember that the temperature inertia can keep this fuel hot for many hours) then only an ATC (Automatic Temperature Compensator) will do justice; as you rightly said, that it's not as simple as filling up early in the morning !

[Rehaan]

Excellent info Dr. Sumit Bhatti!

Can you take a guess as to what the maximum temperature range/difference of the petrol in an indian scenario would be?

Say - eg jaipur, it will get quite cold in the night and hot in the day, - what will the range of temperature of the petrol be?

Thanks,
R

[Dr.Sumit Bhatti]

Originally Posted by Rehaan

Excellent info Dr. Sumit Bhatti!

Can you take a guess as to what the maximum temperature range/difference of the petrol in an indian scenario would be?
R

For every 8 degrees C difference in temperature, petrol volume expands / contracts by 1%
For every 8 degrees C difference in temperature, diesel volume expands / contracts by 0.6%
This has been the most well kept secret in the entire oil industry worldwide. Even while the oil industry in India has always been following Standard Temperature Accounting (STA = converting volume to 15 degrees C) in all it's internal supplies, paying excise, internal payments, exchanges and supply to their own Company Owned Company Operated (COCO) outlets (though not for their COCO labour contractor), STA is conveniently not followed for sales to the final two links in this chain: The Petrol Dealer and The Customer/ Consumer
If you buy petrol at 31 degrees C, instead of the world standard of 15 degrees C, you loose 2 % volume. This loss of fuel volume can go up to 4 - 5% on a very hot day in Jaipur. (Direct heat can be more than ambient temperature. That's why vehicles and dashboards can heat up considerably).
If you add up the figures, thats' a lot of money.