[thanixravindran]

Tata motors is close to hiving off it's Commercial vehicle division and list it separately. The split ratio is 1:1 and next month is the shareholder voting and approval expected. So I guess it gets listed this year. Market has already discounted the share price to the pricing level of new entities.

JLR and EV will remain with PV business, so there may be more fluctuations in the share price along with high Capex spending while the Commercial vehicle entity may be a domestic cash cow business. I am hoping they will give more dividend in the latter as Tata motors is poor in dividend payout and only last couple of years they gave dividends.

[carjack3090]

Tata and their QC issues? Why.

One of the biggest issues with Tata Motors since its inception has been their Quality Control issue.

Tata since its heydays of Indica where they were revolutionizing Indian market scape to today when they are playing it safe, they have faced the Quality issue as well as Service issues.

Question occurs, Why?

• 1. Tata's Work Culture: The appreciable part of Tata group is their work culture of caring for their people and employees, what works as supreme advantage as an employee plays fiddle to Consumers. Underperforming departments, services and employees are let gone and thus no incentive comes up for improvement
  
  2. Tata's incentive structure for dealership: Maruti Suzuki follows a strict incentive structure at dealership levels, Dealers without a 5 star rating are whipped out of the incentive share and those who get it right are rewarded, at Tata there is no such clear plan laid out, again thus there is lower motivation to be better
  
  3. Tata is a design led company: Everything else just follows up, so Tata Motors makes best of Car design but then everything else comes across an after thought which may or may not work
  
  4. Tata's QC measures: The overall recalls made by Tata are few and far in between compared to continuous recalls that Hyundai, Honda, Toyota keep bringing up finding even a single fault in their system

Hyundai recalls 1700 units of Ioniq 5

[rangarx]

Have been closely monitoring Tata. Here is my take.

Betting high on EVs and ignoring IC engines. This has been the biggest problem IMO. Had they invested in ICE development with AVL like say Mahindra and have solid diesels and petrols to boot for Safari to Tiago, things would be totally different, and TML would be a solid no.2 now.

To me, the quality issues are more of a perception strongly associated with the NVH of the engines, smoothness of the gearshift and the fit and finish of the vehicle altogether. Sure, breakdowns and electronic glitches are serious quality problems but tell me the a single manufacturer who is immune to it, with watertight reliability? Toyota may be. If and a big if, TML wants to turn around, they need a solid strategy on the below.

1. Powertrains - Better wake up now than never, invest on good, refined and efficient Petrols and Diesels.
2. Go all the way - No half hearted FWDs, Nexon in steroids (Curvv), and yawn-inducing model life spans. Tiago and Altroz are too old now. Wonder when the next gen is coming up.
3. Get the act together - Your product development lead time is awfully long. Avinya when? Sierra coming or not? Killed the powerful Sumo moniker and closed the grave yet? No solid strategy on product nameplates or development leadtime shortneing. Something they can learn from Mahindra. And please dont replicate the same styling for all models. Seriously getting very, very boring.

Finally, fire all the truck manufacturing management and bring in professional car loving folks into the company. This brilliant company seriously deserves the talent it needs. Yes, the likes of erstwhile Germansand American MDs.

[Balenog6]

In my opinion, the biggest issue Tata should address on high priority is product long term reliability and after sales service people attitude. What’s the point of having a 5-star rated car if it fails to even start. Other issues being on electricals or reverse camera or sometimes AC goes automatically to its lowest.
One of my colleague in Mumbai has Tata Harrier and he had shared his horror story about car getting stalled and random messages on engine check appearing on the dashboard. This was the time when I planning to buy Harrier, but changed my plans.
If the after sales service and QC people keep their lethargic attitude towards customers and/or their products, it’s only a matter of time.
The bare minimum requirement from any car would be to have hassles free drive and peace of mind, which sadly in todays day and time is missing with Tata products.

[FiatDiesel]

Originally Posted by carjack3090

[center]Tata and their QC issues? Why.
1. Tata's Work Culture: The appreciable part of Tata group is their work culture of caring for their people and employees, what works as supreme advantage as an employee plays fiddle to Consumers. Underperforming departments, services and employees are let gone and thus no incentive comes up ………

You have nailed the primary causes. TaMo employees have no fear if they don’t perform and have no motivation in terms of incentive to perform. It’s typical government work culture.

One can wonder how a small company like MG in India with one plant and just 10% of sales as compared to TaMo is still able to keep it’s customers happy and at the same time a company like Maruti which has three times the sales of TaMo is also able to keep customers happy however TaMo despite having so much noise on this topic for years now is not able to fix it.

Solution is that they need a reorg of the ancient hierarchical structure of employee levels which was duly started by Cyrus through Accenture to make organisation agile & responsive however as soon as old Babus started getting fired as they couldn’t speak anything about what they do in org, Cyrus was fired.

Fingers crossed as new boss is at helm of Tata Sons now.

[josethundiyil99]

Originally Posted by sharmanova

Not only the Market cap, even the share prices of Tata have reduced by ~50%

Market Cap = Share value x No of shares outstanding.

[Kishoreshack]

Originally Posted by sharmanova

Not only the Market cap, even the share prices of Tata have reduced by ~50%

Attachment 2749865

Here's what Tata Motors can do right now:

Absolutely everything. TATA needs to get every single thing right this time.

I had booked the new TATA Safari not out of impulse, but out of hope. Hope that an Indian brand could finally deliver a flagship SUV that stands tall against global competition. I wanted to believe in the Safari legacy, in the pride of homegrown engineering. But that hope quickly turned into hesitation.

Let’s face it the Harrier and Safari, especially the latest generations, have been plagued with issues. Glitches, mechanical failures, niggles that just shouldn’t exist in vehicles of this class and price point. What’s worse? Even after three years, most of these problems still remain unresolved.

And under the hood? A decade-old Fiat-sourced engine that’s way past its prime. It’s thirsty, underpowered compared to rivals, rough around the edges, and makes an unpleasant clatter on every start. It simply doesn’t inspire confidence and for a flagship SUV, that’s unacceptable. Refinement is poor, torque delivery isn’t class-leading, and the competition has simply outpaced it. Let’s be honest: who, in their right mind, wants to spend over ₹25 lakhs on outdated technology?

I wanted to own the new Safari. I really did. But after weighing everything the unresolved issues, the outdated engine, the long list of customer complaints I chose to walk away.

And I bought a Mahindra.

Because while TATA gave me nostalgia, Mahindra gave me confidence. They delivered on features, performance, and reliability the things that truly matter when you’re investing your hard-earned money.

TATA still has a golden opportunity to turn things around. But this time, there is no margin for error. Every single thing has to be right because buyers are no longer loyal to brands; they’re loyal to value.

[BlueGod]

Harrier ev is two years late. Instead of concentrating on curvv they should have focused more on harrier ev with 500+ km range and good back seat ergonomics. It would have had better sales than cramped curvv ev. One another missed opportunity is they should have established super charging facilities (10 fast chargers + leased food outlets) across the country using Tata Power after COVID. Smartly placing them on highways. They should have launched harrier ev with tag line “Buy EV without worrying about charging on highways” or something smarter than this.

[OnePunchMan]

Tata Punch owner’s honest thoughts on future of Tata

As a new driver and first time car buyer, I was enamoured by the thought of owning a 5* safe car with rugged suv like looks. I had unconsciously made up my mind to buy the Tata HBX (initial code name for Punch) when Pratap Bose introduced the Punch at auto show. The Tata Punch design I saw back then was something truly special for that time (mini harrier) and I loved the space & practicality it offered in terms of high visibility of bonnet lines and high ground clearance when it launched. Therefore, the negatives like average engine and laggy AMT gearbox didn’t seem to be a big roadblock for a first time car buyer like me.

However, my troubles with Tata car began even before I took delivery as I faced an unreliable dealer who promised delivery until I made booking amount but changing tunes after payment. I changed my booking and preferred variant, colour to another dealer and the Tata experience was already sour for me. Then came issues with my inexperience with cars, many trivial things confused me from the central locking mechanism, the weird mechanical sound the car makes when opening the doors, unreliable parking brake which doesn’t seem to work in slope, connectivity issues in infotainment systems.

This is further aggravated by overloaded, unethical service centre staff who lie through their teeth to provide fast, ineffective service and poor availability of costly spare parts.
One major red flag was the lack of predictable throttle response by the engine and AMT gearbox. There are two major issues:

1) Lack of hill hold assist and weak engine reduces the ability of reversing the car even in small slopes. This is exasperated with unreliable parking brake.

2) There is structural software issue with how Tata has programmed the City and Eco modes (either the gearbox which claim to use machine learning to adapt to our driving pattern is doing something wrong or the ECU mapping to throttle is incorrect). This can be noticed from the next day after we travel long distances in a highway. After being run at highway speeds, the default city mode of the car struggles to provide consistent throttle response whenever it’s being run in cities. This becomes worse after a friend who has a heavy foot drove my car at high speed returning from a trip and I couldn’t get the car to behave in a normal city driving style without jerks. The low end torque becomes nonexistent and the creep function is aggressive.

On a positive note, I’m not going put this blame on the engine for this inconsistent behaviour as it is a perfectly fine engine for first time car buyers and it was able to cruise triple digit speeds for hours without any issues. The highway performance, suspension, chassis and cornering stability of this Alfa platform is great. The only issue is the unpredictable nature of the Software handling the communication between engine, gearbox and throttle body after a highway trip. Either Tata should give a highway mode or completely remove all AI/ML based systems for throttle mapping with ECU until they figure it out.

This is a car which was launched more than 3 years ago, a car which became India’s highest selling car and yet this primary issue is not yet recognised (forget about being rectified). I’m sure Tata engineers and management know about these issue but I’m not sure if this will be addressed anytime in the near future. They must be aware of the service issues and that it’s one of the main reasons I’m looking to sell this car.

The funny thing is, my colleague, an existing Punch owner who recommended the car to me is also thinking of selling his car due unpredictability in throttle response even in his manual car. Obviously, we’re not going to choose a Tata car next & we’ll advise other friends to stay away from Tata cars until we see a positive improvement in QC, reliability & service. Extrapolating this to all their current and future line ups, I’m not so confident about the future of Tata cars especially if they will be able to keep up with current volumes if Sierra didn’t click.

[Pancham]

Since we touched upon the topic of market cap vis-a-vis on-ground realities of Tata Motors (this is where the Team Bhp community comes in with insights), would request everyone to look at the Tata Motor financials as well. Agreed market cap has fallen (Mahindra has retained value pretty well in the last 6 months), but Tata Motors also gave better returns than Mahindra in the last 5 years (since COVID). Also, last 3-4 months, the market has been bearish.

PE is around 7.19 (not comparing but significantly lower than M&M at 27). Sales number look fine. Will be interesting to see March 2025 results. What is important lies in the future - M&M has a better portfolio of cars I feel. Tata has fallen off the horse whereas they looked so well places a couple of years back.

[carjack3090]

Originally Posted by Pancham

Since we touched upon the topic of market cap vis-a-vis on-ground realities of Tata Motors (this is where the Team Bhp community comes in with insights), would request everyone to look at the Tata Motor financials as well. Agreed market cap has fallen (Mahindra has retained value pretty well in the last 6 months), but Tata Motors also gave better returns than Mahindra in the last 5 years (since COVID). Also, last 3-4 months, the market has been bearish.

PE is around 7.19 (not comparing but significantly lower than M&M at 27). Sales number look fine. Will be interesting to see March 2025 results. What is important lies in the future - M&M has a better portfolio of cars I feel. Tata has fallen off the horse whereas they looked so well places a couple of years back.

The margins are off cliff though. They are operating at paltry 4.5 percent margin though I would be curious for the Q4 results for sure

[Motard_Blr]

Gimmick: something that is not serious or of real value that is used to attract people's attention or interest temporarily, especially to make them buy something.

It seems to me that one if the reasons why TML is declining is the lack of depth everything they do - engineering, design, quality, sales experience, reliability and after sales service. Everything they do seems to me like a gimmick.

Perhaps at the level of Tiagos and Punches this is lack of substance does not stand as the competition isn't ahead by a great deal. But the higher you go in the market segments the lack of substance becomes more apparent.

The Curvv sits at the top of the pile of gimmicks. The negative feedback from professional reviewers and customers is glaring.

It looks like TML is in a funk. The energy and potential it displayed a few years ago is gone. I think it's time for TML to find new leadership for the CEO and the board.

I write this with disappointment as I own a Tiago and up to a couple of years ago I was considering upgrading to another Tata car. But not anymore.

[The_Apex]

Thank you for putting together excellent metrics on Tata.

My family has recently bought a Nexon.ev 45kwh as a daily beater. It's been around for two months and first service is done with. As an end consumer and novice financial and marketing analyst the following are my perception:

1. Tata has been overconfident about their ev portfolio and were keeping a blind eye towards market aspirations and competitor evolution. Evident from the friendly banter they had with Mahindra.

2. They have seriously messed up with customer sentiment analytics and the marketing mix ( especially product, price) were not aligned with the current gen aspirations. Be it Curvv or Nexon, the interior quality, ergonomics and dynamics were not that great. Also I am omitting the after sales service which is again horrendous. People bought nexon or punch ev as there were not much options on offer and to deal with rising fuel costs.

3. Their laxity was exposed and they were literally caught off guard after the launch of Windsor and certainly the born electric twins. And adding to their woes were the over ambitious product Curvv, which even the dealership sales guys were struggling to sell.

So naturally as they were enjoying the temporary monopoly while closing eyes on the poor performance of Curvv and other products, the underlying inventory cycling issues became quite big.

With demand reducing setting up a new plant to produce similar products might not cut it. They have to recycle the inventory at priority and then come up with better suited products with enhanced feature and values. IMHO

[navinmra]

Good analysis of Tata Motors’ performance for the last year on this thread. I became a first time Tata buyer in 2023 with the Nexon EV Max, after decades of buying Marutis, Daewoos, Opels, Hyundais and Hondas. Here’s my view of what fascinated me about Tatas in 2023 and what I feel about them now:

1. I loved the Nexon EV for what it had to offer - a solid ICE car selling in great numbers with sound mechanicals now electrified. It was the best foray into EVs at a budget when the nearest comparable car , the ZS EV was 10 lakhs more.

2. The idea of a born EV was alien simply because of the costs involved and consumer awareness of what it has to offer.

3. Fast forward to 2025, the market has shifted and warmed up to born electrics so Tata is looking outdated. That said, my friends who just bought the Mahindra twins struggled with charging on long drives this week - highlighting just how nascent the market and EV ecosystem is even today. I suppose their struggles with a born EV are no different from mine. So a long way to go for the market to mature.

4. The ICE market is also shifting. Post COVID prices have gone up thanks to regulations, safety and input costs. The consumer is now willing to pay a premium but only if the car offers performance and features that make a lifestyle statement. In this backdrop, Mahindras have doubled their market share while Tatas have lost out.

5. For Tatas to recover ground the trick will be to refresh their product portfolio in a financially prudent way without any risky bets.

6. That will mean having distinct product families that look and feel different. This is most required in the Nexon, Curvv and Harrier Safari lineup which look very cluttered.

7. They also need to rethink their EV strategy. Do they continue with having EVs as a powertrain option making them look like EV conversions of ICE products, even if they are born electric, or have a completely new lineup for electrics distinct from their ICE portfolio.

8. The above question is critical because, their Tata.ev strategy with separate showrooms conflict with their product strategy.

9. Coming to QC issues, I feel the jury is still out on this. I know of many Tata buyers who are into their 2nd and 3rd Tata cars and feel good about it. I for one am pretty satisfied with my Nexon EV Max. But equally, the unequal panel gaps have to go!

That said, I am very hopeful that a product refresh is just around the corner and Tata Motors along with Mahindra will continue to be the poster boys of how far Indian car manufacturers have come in just 2 decades!

[DicKy]

As a former TATA anorak, I am glad to see them stumble. The post 2020 success had made them complacent and lazy, with them really believing in leapfrogging to the EV era and using mediocre engines/ licensed engines till the leap was made. No new ICE engines developed, abandoning the BoF segment as a whole, every product of theirs trying super hard to shake off/ avoid the taxicab tag of the 2000s.

Am not wishing them the dark era of the mid 2010s, but they have to pull their socks up. Thanks for making safety a main point for prospective customers and forcing regulations and manufacturers. Now take control of your dealers and service centres. Make your QC/QA strong in your assembly plants. Regain that Indian R&D crown from Mahindra. Give proper generational changes to models. The only time that happened in TATA's history was Indica-> Indica Vista, Indigo-> Indigo Manza, Sumo-> Sumo Grande, but they destroyed it by continuing to sell the older models alongside, with the first generations even continuing in production after their successors were discontinued.

• Retire the 1.2l three cylinder lump and give it a successor.
  
• May not make sense to develop a new larger capacity diesel engine. Atleast could work on the old 2.2l and keep it up to date.
  
• A proper 8 seater MPV/MUV. Make either an Ertiga rvial or an Innova rival. No funny stuff like the Marazzo and cry there is no market when sales go down.
  
• A proper rival to the Thar. Just slapping on the Sierra moniker to a boxier Creta rival won't do.
  
• Give models like the Altroz, the engine specs that Nexon has. Or give the Curvv that 1.5l GDI engine already. Stop worrying about internal cannibalisation.
  
• Not sure why they are not using the engines/platforms of JLR, eventhough Jaguar is going full electric. Higher costs? Aluminium usage?
  
• Make the next gen Tiago, a super exciting model that will attract everyone from a prospective Alto buyer to a Swift buyer.
  
• Stop with the incessant features and editions. These will attract one time buyers and you can make hay while the sun shines. B

ut making them second time or loyal buyers depends on boring stuff like engineering depth, reliability and aftersales support.[/list]