[ACM]

I am NOT in support of such a ban.

1) The latest BS6 V2 solution requiring DPF, Add-ons is a halfbaked solution.

2) The Ban, if at all, should be based on actual Emissions tests, not on standards prevailing, say, 10 years back. Despite the current standards, many vehicles exceeded requirements.

3) I don't get the logic of old polluting cars moving upcountry to another city. 1 country, 1 standard. There are no visible improvements to the situation in NCR thanks to the Ban on 10-year-old Diesel vehicles. If at all, 15 years is a better period.

4) Construction activity is the biggest polluter. Why are there any Toll Plazas (Even for commercial vehicles) near cities? Ban them first. The pollution on account of this is horrendous, but are the Governments prepared to take the hit on income? Improve roads to reduce pollution. The sham of cleaning dust from roads is ridiculous. Why are road sides not properly paved to prevent dust accumulation.

5) Why encourage the construction of high rises in cities with ever-increasing FSI? This results in a density increase and a rise in pollution.

6) Yes, more polluting vehicles can be made to incur a higher road tax after 15 years.

7) Once a vehicle buyer buys a vehicle and pays the one-time 15-year tax on it, then the ban on such a vehicle before 15 years implies the Government can't be relied upon to meet its commitment.

[xja1]

While I agree that it makes some sense to eliminate older ICE vehicles since they apparently contribute more towards air pollution, I have some thoughts:

1. For example, I purchased a high-end diesel BS3 car around 10 years ago and my RC is still valid for another 5 years. During my purchase, I paid a "lifetime" road tax (valid for 15 years) of Rs. 4,00,000. Now, if there is a ban on diesel cars that are more than 10 years old, then will the RTO refund 5 years' worth of the road tax I have already paid, i.e. Rs. 1,33,333? Since I cannot utilize my vehicle for the remaining 5 years, why shouldn't I get a road tax refund? (if someone wants to pinch pennies, they might even ask for interest on that refund amount for 10 years ).

2. Instead of a blanket ban on older ICE vehicles, wouldn't it make sense to first try other approaches first like a congestion fee for the busiest areas of a city and only then see if a ban is really needed?

3. If a ban can be put in place so quickly, shouldn't the policymakers also provide a suitable alternative before enforcing such a ban? i.e. Better public transportation systems with reasonable last-mile connectivity; or Usable pedestrian infrastructure like safer footpaths and sheltered walkways; or Some encouragement to use alternative forms of transport like making dedicated bi-cycle lanes.

4. For the average Indian household, buying a car is a big deal. Even more of a big deal if one has to buy a car every 10 to 15 years. What makes a new car purchase even more iffy is the fact that policies change so frequently (and whimsically) that you really cannot tell if a particular type of vehicle bought today might be eyed for a ban a few years from now. Would I buy a diesel car in today's context? - absolutely not... Petrol car - maybe... Electric car - umm not just yet.

5. Why not make emission testing standards stricter to fail only those vehicles that generate more particulate matter and smoke regardless of their fuel type or age? If a vehicle cannot pass the test, maybe give the owner some leeway to get the engine / exhaust tuned accordingly and again re-test within a certain time window. If it still fails, then advise scrapping or replacing the vehicle.


These are just my 2-cents (mainly rhetorical), I'm not meaning to ruffle any feathers

[IamNikhil]

While the Bombay High Court has asked the Govt of Maharashtra of studying the feasibility of banning petrol and diesel vehicles in Mumbai, have they considered that the EV/CNG ecosystem is not yet ready to take the full load resulting from this ban!

Expect these new strictures to remain on paper, as the Bombay HC now has a new Chief Justice. Every time a judicial bench is newly constituted, the process starts all over again. Also, the automobile lobby is strong to fight the government on this proposed ban.

Don't expect anything to happen anytime soon. The government has other things to take care of, like launching Ladki Bahin, Ladka Bhau, Ladka Beta, Ladki Bahu yojanas; they can't afford to lose revenue from ICE vehicles so easily

[BullettuPaandi]

Originally Posted by somersault

I am all game for being in the Preventive mode than the Corrective mode. However in the Preventive mode, the study should focus on wide scope of ideas, each listing Pros and Cons and then take an informed decision. In the corrective mode, you are allowed to take drastic steps.

I am afraid that the High Court has already assumed that banning the ICE vehicles is the best solution without any comparative study as their statement already suggests that make a study to ban the vehicles. The suggestion from the High Court should be to
a) To first make an informed data analysis of current data, past data, various trends and then make some insights.
b) Then they need to identify experts across various domains, pollution, climate change, industry, common man etc and then identify gradual steps to achieve the reduction in the pollution level (not reduction in the vehicle levels).

If vehicle reduction is identified after such a detailed study then I am fully supportive of it.

I love Mumbai very well and I am basically a hardcore Mumbaikar. But I am not supportive of any move without any strong study to back it.

P.S. I was supportive of Delhi -NCR ban initially as it was perceived to reduce the pollution. But not any more, as it has not improved the pollution visibly. This means that the root cause was some where else. However banning these vehicles without a proper cause has affected the manufacturing growth negatively.

In my industry, we target 80% of gain by implementing 20% of least intrusive recommendations. You achieve the best result out of that.

Note - I am in no way questioning the High Court judgements but as a common man just expressing my thought process around it. Once the law is elected, the law of the land has to be followed. Period.

Well said! Most posts here seem polarised one way or the other in general; but I feel like both are true. Authorities being preventive is rather the 'other part of the entire truth' than 'another way of looking at it'- as GTO has put it.

Much as I'm welcoming of the 'preventive' move argument, I can't help but also feel as if it's rather a 'convenient' move. This seems to me like a 'hitting two mangoes with one stone' move that we've seen time and again- 'Ethanol blending & Putting sugarcane produce to use' for instance. Cities like Mumbai not only have no reason to wait for a pollution disaster as in Delhi, but directly benefit from being 'preventive'. Whether or not the ban has helped Delhi's pollution situation, it has conclusively meant more new car sales.

What is less conclusive though, is the insights from analyses, studies and researches so far. It is not a lack of trying; we simply lack the longitudinal, quality data required and most institutions that work on this are under-funded and under-equipped. So, this move may not be 'the best solution'; but is likely 'the most viable solution' as things are now.

I personally don't think a blanket ban is necessary. Older vehicles can be modified to comply to newer BS norms: DPF, Catalytic reduction, NOx adsorption, EEC and all that are very much retro-fit-able, and still cost quite the fortune that very few with valuable older cars will likely be doing such jobs- enforcement shouldn't really face an overhead because of this. I would've liked to see such option. But ultimately, it is a simple fact that:

Originally Posted by GTO

Old cars are easy to ban

[humyum]

Stats don't point towards vehiclular traffic being the primary source of pollution in Mumbai, neither in Delhi.

If they want to ban diesel cars, they should stop making diesel cars, why manufacturers are not penalised but consumers are?

Its like saying smoking weed is a crime in Amsterdam/Netherlands but selling is not.

If they want to ban diesel cars over 15 years, stop providing road tax worth 15 years when you buy the car, for those cars who are legally able to drive because of their road tax being live, they should not be stopped from plying as I have paid for it, I was promised for it and I should be able to use it.

Government is a JOKE, they want to go for the weakest link aka normal helpless Indians, not the builders lobby, not the automobile lobby, not the shoddy state of roads all over Mumbai or Maharashtra (you have to drive on any highway or city road in Maharashtra to know what I am talking about), nor the corrupt police and RTO and neither the industrialists, the aim is always on the citizen of this country.

If you improve roads, traffics will reduce. Make public transport better, cars will reduce, on the other hand stop construction activities all around like entire Mumbai needs to redevelop all at once or if you do it, do it quickly that its closed in the least time

Originally Posted by coldice4u

The problem i see is in these kind of threads is that everyone wants everything. No one is ready to give up an inch. Everyone wants no pollution, no congestion, no parking issues, more studies, more wide roads, keep vehicles as long as they want, better public transport, etc etc.

Perils of too much democracy i believe!

Government cannot work adhoc like its some spoiled child. Decisions on large scale need to be implemented phase wise in consultation with the public, keeping public interest monetary value in mind. Please read up on how western countries bring in rules and work in tandem with public/manufacturers to make it happen, there is no democracy in how rules were implemented in Delhi, it was and is dictatorship and that is what should end.

[Mukunthan91]

It's a good move to implement across all major metropolitan cities to curb pollution. Any commercial and passenger diesel vehicle older than 10 years should be removed from road and scrapped.
Government has already brought in incentives policy for old vehicle scrappage.

[aresquire]

If it is the congestion issue ,then maybe the Singapore model could be followed. However that will ring the death knell of the car industry as we know it.

[suryaj1990]

I seriously feel Government should make use of the Sea. We can easily use ferries and water taxi to move all around Mumbai. Moreover, since it will be using a single route and defined time, they can explore electric! Most of our Major Stations are in close vicinity to the Sea such as Churchgate, Colaba, VT, Bandra, Navi Mumbai and the new airport. You can reach deep within city limits by way of Nallahs. It is something seriously left unexplored! Most Businesses as well as Private owners would opt their own water transport leading to an alternate solution and reducing Road traffic.

Instead of paying taxes on vehicle purchases, people should be compelled to Plant trees at their cost. Each tree should be marked with a Number based on which car has planted it. These trees should be the ones cleaning the environment and releasing oxygen and within city limits only.

Install vehicle charging "on-the-go". Major city roads should be equipped with charging vehicles while driving itself and overhead wires for buses and trucks.

Certain City limits falling within a peripheral of 5 square km should be declared a "no car zone". Only Essential services should be permitted. There should be parking zones outside where people can park and then continue to their residence by foot, tram, buggy or electric rickshaws. Similar concepts have been implemented in many Hotels and new buildings. Although what I am asking to do is for City limits suchas Churchgate, Fountain, Colaba, Cuffe Parade and VT. In any case, people take 30 minutes on an average to move within this part because it is already a congested zone and no scope for any infrastructure nor is it invited. This will promote Health too as a few may just opt to walk

Most of all, as rightly pointed out by a bunch of people here; this is all not really as concerning as Delhi situation but I agree with Courts initiative to take precautionary measures.

[gopi_rm]

Originally Posted by Mukunthan91

It's a good move to implement across all major metropolitan cities to curb pollution. Any commercial and passenger diesel vehicle older than 10 years should be removed from road and scrapped.
Government has already brought in incentives policy for old vehicle scrappage.

I am sorry I have to disagree with this blanket ban solution. It should be based on data and facts. Govt. has to study the root causes of the pollution such as vehicles, construction, dust from unpaved road surfaces, dust from uncovered commercial vehicles, etc. and in what proposition and then implement measures accordingly.

What will happen to all diesel car buyers who paid the lifetime road tax? In case govt is banning 10 years old vehicles, then they have to payback the 5 years remaining tax with interest to those vehicle owners.

In addition to that, public infrastructure such as metros, buses till last mile, proper roads, bicycle lanes, proper walkable footpaths, etc. have to be ramped up rapidly before implementing such bans.

Most of the europeon cities and Singapore are as well densely populated but these cities are continuously investing huge money in public infrastructure to ensure that you do not need to own a car and still comfortably commute as a family including toddlers (e.g. buggy friendly buses, trams, ramps, etc.). If govt implements all these things first, then the car usage will come down drastically by itself. Because in Indian metros, nobody is willingly using his/her car rather due to unavailable alternative options.

E.g. in my case, if am travelling to metros such as Stuttgart or Berlin, there are lot of dedicated P+R (Park and Ride) parking spaces around the city boundary areas. I will simply park my car over there for free or for a very small fee (parking ticket is linked to public transport ticket) and use the excellent public transport to roam around the city. This solution very much comfortable because I do not need to drive the case in the dense traffic areas as well as I don't need to use public transport for inter city travels.

[Mike_Schumacher]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

It's a request for a through study to be conducted; not a decision. So we are still some way from a Delhi-type decision to come to Bombay.


But honestly speaking, Bombay will benefit from some restrictions on private vehicle. Not only air pollution, but noise pollution and congestion across the city roads are easy benefits to observe. But I hope the study does take into consideration different options

1. Putting a congestion tax on vehicles plying across the city. New York recently put this to implementation and London has been doing this for ages.

2. Higher taxes on owning a private vehicle in the city. Singapore comes to mind; but honestly there's easy pickings on this with regards to alternatives for implementation. For example - Bombay can look at pushing for single vehicle ownership; with higher tax brackets for the second car owned by a household.

You do know how the public transport works in London and Singapore , right ? In india, we do the second step with a lot of zeal, ie, imposing huge taxes as deterrent while happily ignoring the first step of creating public
infrastructure. As if we are not taxed enough to have another congestion tax to be added to it.

[nsbhagwat]

Originally Posted by Storm2.0

Note: Sarcasm intended
If this rule gets implemented in Bangalore, I'll purchase an autorickshaw and use it for my personal commute and rent it out to make money on other days. And guess what, since its an autorickshaw no authority or law of the land will apply to it with respect to it's road worthiness or contribution to pollution or following traffic rules.

Hi, well said. You can as well carry 3 passengers to the office. Cost of petrol / CNG will also be recovered in the process on a daily basis.

Regards
Nikhil

[nsbhagwat]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

This only shows that the real estate lobby is stronger than the automobile lobby. Pune too is covered in a pall of grey dust today, but who cares? In the name of " development" all private ventures get fulfilled.

Real estate operators, contractors are the face of these politicians in every form and shape. Their writ rules the cities.

Nikhil

[Sk8r]

Am 2 weeks old to the city and was contemplating getting my 6 year old Freestyle TDCI in pristine condition from Chennai and getting it registered here.

However, having experienced the local trains and the auto/taxis (not Ola/Uber/Rapido), am pretty confident that I can manage without a car in Mumbai.

But, I've the below set of humble requests to the esteemed committee members speaking in favor of this ban to:

1-Ban spitting in footpath & dividers, we need not paint the town RED
2-Make well paved footpaths mandatory
3-Remove unauthorized Hawkers
4-Strictly make cars inaccessible to park obstructing the footpaths
5-Strictly ban entry of cars in streets with no footpath
6-Double the number of buses plying on the road
7-Create Bus Rapid Transport System

THEN, let's ban old cars and act as if the public infrastructure is available for common man to live without a modern, latest automobile

[nsbhagwat]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

The sad state of politics, lobbies and corruption in this country. The joke is on us - The helpless consumers.

While these short sighted (and obviously linked to kickbacks) decisions will be thought of as bringing more car-sales in short term - such hilarious policy decisions will eventually leave consumers disillusioned and the market will collapse for automakers. Good luck with that.

Shame on the system.

I always say - all the infrastructure is for the politicians, the collateral is they allow us to drive on roads bridges built using our tax funds and yet force us to pay toll.

The joke is really on us.

[xsrahul]

After a long time I see a thread on Mumbai which is great as I do see proactive intent from the authorities which of course our petrol heads are support of.

That said, I can also sense there is a rift in terms of the the benefits that members feel can be achieved from banning automobiles in Mumbai which is understandable as no one knows if this will surely make an impact on our AQI.

I think all of us agree that banning some cars/all cars will stop pollution but then so will turning off all factories and turning off all polluting sources. Is that a solution?
Many of us go on perfectly avoidable drives inside and out of the city which are technically not a ‘necessity’ - of course fully knowing this is adding to the pollution yet we don’t flinch while doing it.

Some of the members of this forum may have the luxury of 1 or multiple cars or maybe well off to not get commercially impacted by such bans as they can buy a new car but surely this size doesn’t fit all.

Coming to the point on banning ‘x’ type of fuel cars after ‘y’ years, who gets to decide which car is polluting and which is not polluting. Instead of banning cars by age/fuel type, maybe room to consider to ban cars which pollute above a certain level which is tested at a PUC center. Isn’t that the reason we have PUC which is to be done as frequently as 6months currently, if required make this 3 months for older cars but ad hoc deciding to ban cars without logic is a step in the wrong direction to the best of my knowledge.

Second angle - pollution is due to traffic which is mostly due to construction and bad roads. More fuel is burnt when cars have to stop and start due to this, than at smooth cruising, let’s see how the authorities cater to that and not put in a difficult to do basket which has been perennially done. I’ve lived and worked (much like many of other member) in countries which are too hot, too rainy, too humid yet their roads are much better than mumbai - which is proudly the highest tax paying city in the country.

I would imply that it a regressive move to take adhoc decisions on banning an and b although it maybe populist and political but only time will tell whether this is a long term solution.

My humble take knowing mumbai is this city has a beautiful heart and has proven it time and again. Request people to use their vehicles (especially polluting ones) judiciously. Don’t renew / impound cars which pollute (regulations) and apply strict fines so that we are driving behaviour rather than taking a short term easy quick fix.

One thing I know for sure is in mumbai, some will crib and most will complain but the city never stops. Cheers to that undying spirit of my favourite city

Safe driving!