[shikh_oberoi]

I compared costs between both systems after looking at the new Baas options for ZS EV.

• I own a Toyota Hyryder Strong Hybrid which has done 26000kms since April 2023.
• Comparison between ZS EV base model vs Hyryder's middle G variant. (there are some more features in the G Variant like a panoramic sunroof)
• Accurate Hybrid running costs including city, highway, mountains, and peak traffic drives.

• As you can see ZS EV Baas doesn't make sense. You don't own the full car which is the biggest drawback and MG is still pocketing a good share of tax benefits which ideally should have been going to the customer.
• Lots of uncertainty in Baas like car resale, additional subscription services, and mandatory authorized service center maintenance.
• ZS EV's second model Excite Pro comes with a sunroof for an additional 1 lakh rupees so the difference between both cars comes down to 2 lakh rupees.

I am attaching the running costs of my Hybrid car below.

[narayans80]

If MG thinks perpetual and/or usage based payment for a fixed price product (roughly 3.8L for Windsor and 5L for ZS), no customer will touch BaaS with a barge pole.

Fuel cost of a Hyryder or a diesel will definitely be lower than ZS BaaS+charging cost and comparable for Windsor BaaS+charging. I run my diesel at 5.08 Rs/km.

[amsidhu]

Nice comparison. Add to it the fully exempted registration fee in states like UP you get another 1.5 lacs off & scales tilt in favour of Hybrids viz a viz EVs.

[shyampsunder]

What about degradation of hybrid battery over time? Unlike EV battery, Toyota's hybrid batteries don't have liquid cooling, chemistry is also more prone to degradation compared to LFP.

But the main kicker is the number of cycles. A normal commute trip may consume 2 - 3 battery cycles. Within 3 years going through 1000 cycles is very normal and there should be significant degradation in mileage as the cycles add up.

[shikh_oberoi]

Both EV and Hybrid batteries have warranty of 8 years so I don't know why we should consider this as a factor. If Toyota's battery is more likely to fail they won't be giving 8 years warranty.

[Nithesh_M]

Isn't Baas offering lifetime warranty on battery? If so shouldn't one be factoring the advantage of battery replacement costs for the Toyotas and other EVs? We've seen multiple Tata EV owners getting battery replacement within warranty period.

[nandrive]

Originally Posted by shikh_oberoi

Both EV and Hybrid batteries have warranty of 8 years so I don't know why we should consider this as a factor. If Toyota's battery is more likely to fail they won't be giving 8 years warranty.

In my case if I regularly service my car at an authorized Toyota dealership, warranty on hybrid battery is extended to 10 years.

In the past 4+ years I have driven my Rav4 Hybrid All wheel Drive a little more than 42000 kms. I am seeing improved fuel economy lately. One change I did was, for the first 3 years of ownership I used 98 Octane petrol, but from the past 1+ years I have switched to 91 Octane petrol. I am not sure if it is having any positive impact on the fuel economy, I was expecting fuel economy to drop a bit.



As per Australian 2024 data, On an average Hybrids are far more cheaper to insure than Ev's and also cheaper to insure than Pure ICE vehicles. Take a look at the price range between $50,001 to $75,000, where Tesla models and Rav4 fall into. EVs are ~70% more expensive to insure than Hybrids, which is good enough for me to service my car for 4 years

[shikh_oberoi]

@Nitesh - Lifetime warranty is a joke. Difference between BaaS(14.99) and outright purchase(18.99) is 4 lakh rupees.

With BaaS at 5.31 per km, you have already paid for the battery cost after completing just 75,000 kms and you still don't own the battery.
Outright purchase has warranty till 1,50,000 kms so you are already paying for two batteries in Baas scheme if you were to cover the 150k kms and you still don't own the battery.

@nandrive - good to know about the warranty extension. And I just assumed the insurance cost on EV in my calculations, maybe they are expensive in India as well.

[sprashanth1982]

Originally Posted by shyampsunder

What about degradation of hybrid battery over time? Unlike EV battery, Toyota's hybrid batteries don't have liquid cooling, chemistry is also more prone to degradation compared to LFP.

But the main kicker is the number of cycles. A normal commute trip may consume 2 - 3 battery cycles. Within 3 years going through 1000 cycles is very normal and there should be significant degradation in mileage as the cycles add up.

As per the data from older Toyota Prius Hybrids which used Ni-MH batteries, the battery SOC is maintained between 40% and 80% most of the time. The Toyota Hyryder uses Lithium-NMC batteries which I believe is also maintained under similar SOC limits. This ensures that the Hybrid battery will last more charging cycles than a fully electric BEV battery whose SOC is typically maintained between 10% and 80%. As other users have stated, Toyota is offering 8-yrs/100kms warranty on the Hybrid battery & older Prius Hybrids in North America, Japan etc. have generally lasted for 10-12yrs before needing to replace the battery.

You may say, if the Hybrid battery SOC is maintained between 40-80% meaning only 40% of the battery charge is used, isn't the remaining 60% simply wasted? Yes, that is true, but it's not a big deal because the Hybrid battery is quite small (~1 kWh) and it can fit easily under the back-seat and doesn't weigh that much compared to a Plugin-Hybrid or Fully Electric car battery. So the 60% wastage is not of much concern here.

[shyampsunder]

Originally Posted by sprashanth1982

As per the data from older Toyota Prius Hybrids which used Ni-MH batteries, the battery SOC is maintained between 40% and 80% most of the time. The Toyota Hyryder uses Lithium-NMC batteries which I believe is also maintained under similar SOC limits. This ensures that the Hybrid battery will last more charging cycles than a fully electric BEV battery whose SOC is typically maintained between 10% and 80%. As other users have stated, Toyota is offering 8-yrs/100kms warranty on the Hybrid battery & older Prius Hybrids in North America, Japan etc. have generally lasted for 10-12yrs before needing to replace the battery.

You may say, if the Hybrid battery SOC is maintained between 40-80% meaning only 40% of the battery charge is used, isn't the remaining 60% simply wasted? Yes, that is true, but it's not a big deal because the Hybrid battery is quite small (~1 kWh) and it can fit easily under the back-seat and doesn't weigh that much compared to a Plugin-Hybrid or Fully Electric car battery. So the 60% wastage is not of much concern here.

Thanks for the details.

Yes, I agree a hybrid battery can last more cycles than an EV because there is an engine that can kick in and ensure that the charge - discharge cycle is super optimal. No such luxury on an EV.

But there are two factors that skew this:

1. Chemistry type: LFP in most Indian EVs vs Lithium ion on NiMH. LFP has a much higher cycle life.

2. Liquid cooling on EVs is another significant advantage

The point about number of cycles still holds. The hybrid battery on the Hyryder can power distances of roughly 5 KMs per charge?

Let's assume that's only 40% of the battery. So one full cycle of the battery should yield around 10 KMs of driving.

Assuming 2000 cycles is the life of the battery, at 20k KMs of electric only driving, the battery should retain only 80% of the original charge.

Significant mileage deterioration should be visible at this point. Does Toyota's warranty guarantee any SoH value? Couldn't find much online.

[Doge]

My cousin and me were comparing the same Hyryder G hybrid vs the ZS ev base, before all these subscription options became available. One important thing in the ZS arsenal is that its drive train and performance are a couple of segments above the GV/Toyota. The Grand Vitara was the most lethargic and out of breath car that I've driven on the highway in a while ( the car he ended up buying ) vs the rocket that is the MG. I feel that the premium you pay for the performance on the MG is well worth it, not to mention how much smoother and more refined it feels compared to the GV/ Hyryder. Imagine if they had a higher strung hybrid actually capable to match the MG, the Toyota twins would cost 3-4L more easily.
Also, you do have to get the Toyota serviced only at authorised dealerships to keep the 8 year battery warrenty with you. The hybrids also have to deal with the daft 15 year ban rule here where as the EVs won't. Another point to keep in mind when thinking about resale!