[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by nandrive

I own a Toyota Rav4 Hybrid, its cargo capacity, fuel tank capacity, cabin space are exactly same as its ICE counterpart.

Originally Posted by MobileThunder

Toyota Rav4 Hybrid might be one of the very well engineered Hybrids, with a very unobtrusive battery.

Let’s not ignore the fact that RAV4 is same size as the Kodiaq and only slightly taller than Ioniq 5.





It is unfair to compare the packaging of a physically larger vehicle and arrive at the conclusion that hybrids do not compromise boot space. It is the exception, not the norm.

The cars which fall in same size category as RAV4 are very few in India. Vast majority of strong hybrids will be small cars which despite excellent packaging, will inevitably sacrifice boot space.

Also, is RAV4 available in a non hybrid trim? IIRC it was in strong hybrid and PHEV only?

Originally Posted by gharika

For EV and plug in hybrids, we also need to consider how the electricity is generated. With coal powered electricity plants, we are only moving the pollution from one location to another.

It is still a welcome move, since our cities have already become a concrete jungle which can’t disperse emissions, which linger in the air whereas power plants have quite a bit of forest nearby, so easy dispersal and absorption

For the strong hybrid, the ICE tech used will be a bigger factor both in terms of fuel efficiency and emissions.

100% of the propulsion energy for a “self charging” hybrid comes from fossil fuels. For grid, the picture is much better, 44% being renewable. https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1983201

An EV is a hybrid with its engine placed far away from city, and magically, 44% of the engine does not pollute at all, only 56% of it does. So a hybrid with an engine INSIDE the city using 100% FOSSIL FUEL is worse in my books.

The bigger question will be an alternative to personal transport. We waste more fuel when a vehicle is not fully utilized. So a public transport bus going around on its route empty is a waste as well

Yes, better city planning could be done but let’s be realistic, our administration can’t even remove illegal encroachment without riot control, let alone explaining the public why we must remodel the city by demolishing half of it.

[nandrive]

Originally Posted by Shresth_EV

Let’s not ignore the fact that RAV4 is same size as the Kodiaq and only slightly taller than Ioniq 5.

It is unfair to compare the packaging of a physically larger vehicle and arrive at the conclusion that hybrids do not compromise boot space. It is the exception, not the norm.

The cars which fall in same size category as RAV4 are very few in India. Vast majority of strong hybrids will be small cars which despite excellent packaging, will inevitably sacrifice boot space.

Also, is RAV4 available in a non hybrid trim? IIRC it was in strong hybrid and PHEV only?

Please don't move the goal post by quoting my comment out of context. I was responding to a members comment that not necessarily all hybrids compromise on cabin or cargo space if hybrids are not an afterthought, mentioned RAV4 as an example. Honda CRV is bigger than RAV4 but loses spare wheel because of hybrid powertrain. Cabin/cargo spaces of Toyota corolla sedan and hatchback are one and the same for both ICE and hybrid variants.

I have proofs for my claims above and answer to your question, but I want you to find them yourself you are just a click away. You will also realise that cost premium of hybrids over ICEs is around just 1.2 to 1.3 lakh INR in US and AU, unlike India.

[starke]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

They are not any less complex for example than a Toyota Hybrid system and are not as efficient either. Toyota Hybrid system does not have a gearbox either but instead a power split device which can run the system as a parallel hybrid, a series htybrid, a combination of both or even pure EV mode. They do not have a reverse gear too since the motor is simply run in reverse polarity for the car to go backwards, no starter motor for the engine, no airconditioning belts and pulleys.

THS does have a full-fledged planet gear system which they call the eCVT.
This is required to have both parallel/Series instead of only series on the Nissan.

Also THS also has two electric motors, one to act as a generator and another one as a motor/generator(regen). Both of them also enjoys electric compressor and no reverse gear.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

The Nissan system needs to have a bigger generator and a relatively bigger battery since it powered by the electricity produced and power stored in the battery. For the same reason it does not have full claimed system power when the batter is low since they quote the electric power and not the ICE engine power which is lower than the electric power. The system also puts more demand of the still small battery when powering the car.


There is no question that the Toyota system is better and more efficient.

Both e-Power & THS uses around 1.5 kWh for their hybrid cars as the series system keeps the battery min SoC higher than other one, And as you already said that the generator in the e-Power is bigger than THS, there is always sufficient power unless we push the car for a longer time where the engine can not power the battery. I'd e-Power note and a Qashqai which never went out of power even in long highway drives. I couldn't understand what you meant by "It does not have full claimed system power when Battery is low" since the battery never runs of as long as your engine is running.

But I do agree that THS is more efficient as it uses the ICE on higher speeds where the motor efficiency is lower. But the series hybrid system is simpler with less components (-eCVT/Power split) and cheaper.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

You can simply top up your EV at home after every trip. You do not have to wait for the battery to go to zero. The range question only comes up for long distance driving and the limiting factor is the number of fast chargers not the range by itself.

Thats what I also said, for short commute where Im sure I can be home and top-up in the night, I'll have a small EV and as you said about the limiting factor, the fast chargers are still not scaled up to the level where we can completely be flexible as an ICE, so I would stick with a hybrid where I could literally go drive in the mountain/camping or to the next state without worrying of finding a quick charger or even finding broken charger which I've faced lots of time.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Theoretically if the motor and the battery were 100% efficient. In reality it will be closer to 80 percent

Yes, I was just giving a simple logic as so many people tend to mistake motor power as battery capacity and vice-versa.

[Carma2017]

The option I wanted to select is not mentioned here, hence stuck to Strong Hybrid Option. I don't care if it is Series or Parallel Hybrid as a customer. I only want my car to give a high mileage.

When we say Hybrid, in India, today, there are only two main players in India, Toyota (Suzuki uses same tech as of now and cannot be considered distinct) & Honda. 2 more players have committed investment (efforts or money terms) in this Tech, Suzuki and Hyundai. But, as far as I know, at least the Japs are not buliding platforms from the ground up for Hybrids, like they are doing for EVs. So, loss in luggage room for upcoming hybrids from them is as inevitable as the Sun rising and setting. Hyundai, in contrast is a very intelligent OEM and may have innovative solutions for the same, at least I would like to think so. In Mileage terms, I do not expect drastic improvements, maybe 3-4 kmpl above current numbers tops, but I expect a differential of INR 3-4 lacs between Hybrid and Non-Hybrid variants based on pricing in Japan. Of course, if volumes grow, it will bring down prices for sure.

EVs are out of my consideration as they are too expensive for the value they generate and in my very personal opinion are a crap solution for India. I think in it's current form it is a crap solution for the world too, but the momentum, generated and amplified by Elon Musk and his Chinese brethren, behind this technology is too much to stop the juggernaut.

[84.monsoon]

I think the Mild Hybrids may deserve a further breakdown in the tree structure provided at the start of this poll. My BMW M340i has a mild hybrid system that is based on a 48V battery. The 48V system provides a significant boost in power over 12V one used in cars such as the HyRyder NeoDrive. While a standard 12V system can put out a maximum of 2 to 4 kW, the 48 V system can deliver up to 10 − 20 kW. The higher voltage does a better job at operating heavy−duty devices like pumps, compressors, turbos, and suspension components.

Voted for the Strong Hybrid, but in reality, my choice would depend on the use case. I expect that, in a few years, all non-full-EVs in our garages would be hybrids, but they will just be different types of hybrids. Here is the ideal 4 car garage for 2027-28 IMO:

• For daily in-city run-about, I would pick a cheap series hybrid. hopefully Maruti-Suzuki would give us a few such small car options, around in the 6-8 lakh price range
• For a spacious family UV, which I may use both in the city and for long distance runs and holiday road-trips with family, I would pick a series-parallel strong hybrid such as the Innova HyCross.
• For my own pet luxury-performance car, I would probably choose a plug-in hybrid, as the performance on tap will be insane without the huge FE penalty that we have to pay currently for such cars. The new Skoda Octavia RS PHEV or the new M5 (if only I could afford the latter)! But I may well end up keeping my M340i mild hybrid for a long time, as replacing it with one of these PHEVs that can match or better its performance without shelling out an arm and a leg is not going to be easy.
• A fourth car in the garage which would be the sole non-hybrid - An Off-roader. It would probably be a Thar Roxx, or I may just keep my Thar 3-Door! It is also very much possible M&M may add a mild hybrid system to the Thars by then.

[84.monsoon]

I recently came across an article about use of Diesels in Series Hybrid applications.

https://www.fuelsandlubes.com/india-...el-efficiency/

The article says Diesel Series Hybrids achieved the best Well-to-Wheel efficiency across the numerous variations of hybrid applications. A well-to-wheel (WTW) analysis assesses the total fuel cycle of a vehicle from crude oil extraction right through to general daily operation.

R. V. Ravikrishna, Pratt & Whitney Chair Professor at the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore, presented the first comprehensive study of WTW analysis of auto fuels in the Indian Context. The research considers both energy use and emissions in each stage of fuel production and use. The study analysed five fuel pathways and 12 fuel and vehicle technology combinations including conventional, series hybrid and plug-in hybrid configurations for gasoline, diesel and CNG. Hybrid hydrogen fuel cells along with their plug-in version and battery electric vehicles were also considered. Ravikrishna concluded that the diesel series hybrid shows maximum WTW efficiency amongst all drivetrains, primarily due to the inherent higher engine efficiency. Hybridisation tends to significantly improve WTW efficiency and reduce WTW carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions, says Ravikrishna.

Overall, hybrids demonstrated higher WTW efficiency as compared to plug-in hybrids and battery electric vehicles – due to the lower well-to-tank (WTT) efficiency associated with the production of electricity. The existing electricity generation mix (2019-2020) in India, with around 70% dependence on inefficient coal power plants, makes the electricity pathway less efficient and high CO2 emitting.

Although Diesels are not good for start/stop applications with extensive RPM variations in Series/Parallel applications, they may well be a very good choice for series hybrids. The engine can operate at the ideal RPM for efficiency, and charge the battery. The variability of power output required is taken care of the battery and motor. I expect that if this is true, Diesel engines may well make a comeback to power super-efficient series hybrids that may well return much better FE than existing petrol-driven series hybrids. Volvo and other manufacturers who stopped Diesel Development may find themselves at a disadvantage as the action shifts to hyper-efficient hybrids from pure EVs.