[Apex1815]

This is such a nice study on the Rise and Fall of Honda India. The brand which had become aspirational by 2010 has lost all its glory by the year 2020.

The condition of some other Japanese Brands is also similar like Nissan, Isuzu, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Suzuki (2W) and to some extent Toyota India (who is more than happy by selling Re-Branded cars of Maruti and does not care about innovation).
The condition of other Japanese which are not in Automotive domain is also not so good For Eg Sony, Nikon etc.

I have worked for 12 yrs with a Japanese MNC and can give some relatable inputs which are mainly related to the Japanese work culture:

1) The main problem lies with a Japanese way of working :
They are very very slow in responding to the market. By the time they respond to Market it is always late. For Eg Honda Elevate launched in 2023 actually competes with First generation Creta which was launched in the year 2014.

2) Japanese companies still follow verticle organizational structure where the information totally gets diluted when it flows from bottom to the top and what is reported to the Japanese management by the immediate sub-ordinates is just to make the management happy.
In this work culture there is no individual responsibility and accountability.

3) The jobs in the Japanese companies are very secure, infact more secure than Indian public sector companies. When people join Japanese companies, soon they realize the sense of Job security.
The major disadvantage of such Job security is that the most of the Indian staff working in Japanese are really not sincere at their workplace.

4) The Japanese think only once in a year i.e during the Annual Review Meeting. Rest of the year they simply work and follow the instructions.

5) All decision making is done by top officials sitting in the Japan. Even a minor design change may take ages to get approved.

6) All departments are headed by Japanese expats which comes on a 3 yr tenure to India. First 2 yrs it takes for them to understand the market and how things work in India. And the last year they are on relaxing mood and soon their Indian tenure gets over. With this all the major issues/projects which need to be addressed remain in pipeline and keep pending.

7) Japanese do not consider bringing latest stuff to India because they see Indian market as a highly cost conscious market and IMHO Japanese cannot design a low cost product. This is because of the major design inputs from Japan head quarters, input costs are always high and does not really work in Indian scenario.




So what I feel based on my experience with Japanese companies is that the root cause is with their work culture.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Beemer1077

My former college roommate who lives in Vancouver CA, drives a 2008 Honda Accord V6 and still runs butter smooth. I have friends who drive old model Civic, 2006 Honda City ZX, the new 2023 CR-V and they are all fantastic and reliable.

My brother is one of those weird Honda fans. This is his two car garage:





The second car is used to store fuel for the first car

[sarathlal]

Honda is one such brand, that does not have to spend a penny for customer acquisition. Just launch the right car, and it will be lapped up. But they simply won't!

I remember going in to the two showrooms near my hometown in late 2019 looking for the CRV.
This was the experience;
Receptionist: Sir, please note down your number in the register and we will call you back when the City is available
This is without checking what I came for.

And when I asked about CRV, they had no clue what that is! Unbelievable.
And stepping up further, they were pushing to sell me the Amaze telling me how value for money it is, compared to the Jazz.

Yea, all these people together killed Honda as a brand.

Originally Posted by SmartCat

The second car is used to store fuel for the first car

This was, lol!

I can imagine, but still have a special place in heart for the CRV, if only it was available here

[saket77]

Great analysis!
There are now so many threads on Honda on TBHP itself and the point to note is that it is a brand which is 'loved' by most; especially when compared to the Korean twins, which have even their share of critics despite people flocking in numbers to buy their products. People criticize the decisions and management of Honda but they love the cars and especially the engines. I would go one step ahead and say that the engineering in the space is probably better than that of even its Japanese sibling- The T badge.

However, there's no doubt that they have been very late to the parties where the action has always been and that is especially true for Elevate. The diesel, despite being frugal in terms of operating cost was a waste investment because it couldn't be made compliant to current norms.

Again, they have the turbo petrols but they aren't available here. Discontinuation of Civic was another nail in the coffin. It was a pretty important car to keep up the brand image but Honda is now probably just looking at the profitability. As someone said, that now it is upto the Amaze, City and Elevate to keep Honda afloat until the anticipated PF2 platform cars start rolling from assemble line. Even then we will have to trust Honda management that pricing will not a fiasco in itself.

[somersault]

Superb Analysis to begin with. Let me add some perspective from the existing owner side.

I always wanted to purchase Honda city 15 years back, as it was the symbol for luxury, reliability and corporate look. I used to envy people driving them (when I used to drive the Swift). Come to 2014, when 4th Gen was announced, I jumped the rope and purchased the top model VxCVT. The delivery itself was delayed by 8 months and that time period was frustrating. However when I received the vehicle, it really felt a significant upgrade from my existing car (Swift) and all the internals were felt premium. Except the external doors quality etc. The best part was the engine and even now when I drive this vehicle, I feel happy. The engine is very addictive and this is in spite having the CVT gearbox. I have managed to learn to apply right pressure at right time on the A peddle to extract the maximum performance. In a nut shell, I am very happy with my 4th Gen City.

Come to 2018/2019, I was looking for an upgrade. Naturally I was looking for Civic as it was another aspirational and more powerful, feature rich product for me. But then by that time the SUV/ MUV preferences started in India. Somehow Honda launched very basic products like Mobilio etc. which never felt desirable. The Civic was suddenly discontinued and there was no choice for a easier upgrade within the same company products. Now when I want to buy a SUV type model in 2023-24 period, all they have is Elevate with same engine options which is available in City. So engine wise there is absolutely no upgrade. Every other competitor is launching more powerful/ turbo petrol engines but Honda is at the same level of 1.5 NA. No change in power and torque figures.

The people who purchased City initially in their initial days were kind of good income people at that time. Honda has a large number of fan following like this. Over the years, their income increased further, but Honda does not have a good offering for them. So for 7 lakh total City customers, Honda has only the Elevate to offer with same engine, same steering, same gear box etc. Why go for it then.

The brand service and reliability is top notch but then they do not have aspirational and powerful and feature rich offering for people like us. Competitors have much better offerings. If you neglect your existing customers, not sure how you will grow.

[Kosfactor]

Honda was just plain lucky in the initial years, Mitsubishi was not so.

I`ve never travelled abroad before so was not sure of the car scene there from a casual observer by the side of the road.

Recently I did visit one country, my eyes were always on the cars on the road - Honda was simply taking those vehicles designed for Asian country and deploying them in India with minor changes. That worked for a while, no problems.

Keeping in mind the Brio platform made for India which did not take off - I think they need to do more for India because of just one reason.

We have a sub4M category, this has supercharged innovation in the small car segment to the extend that while those Asian countries have small cars with weezy NA engines mated to 4 Speed ATs or CVTs , we have Turbo GDI engines, diesels, DCT, CVT, Conventional AT 6 speeds and even something out of the box like AMTs and DCA etc. Then Sub4M itself has Sunroof, ADAS and every possible feature imaginable that subsequent segments are expected to have even more kit.

Also noticed some Elevate with a different grill in that country - it was badged WRV. All the usual Honda cars we see in India were there in pretty high number, I do not think Honda is going to change their ways that soon if sales in those markets are what it aspires to have.

[zeus18]

Great analysis.


Honda needs to go back to how it started its innings in India-- it should be positioned as a "true" premium brand in the mass market category. I believe that Honda positions as one currently but the positioning does not trickle down to the products it offers in term of features and engines as suggested by other members. There is a gap between how it positions itself and the ground reality which is the reason customers are not moving towards Honda. As long as Honda plays safe, same fate will continue.

With no new product launch until 2027 other than new gen Amaze, Honda should pump life into Elevate and City with timely refreshes and update features. I hope, as a Honda fan, Elevate, when due for a facelift probably next year, comes all guns blazing.

[NiInJa]

As a driver and co-owner of Honda Brio, I feel bad for Honda. Their cars are a bit more fun to drive than Marutis, Hyundais and Tatas in the same segment, but the problem was they never made sense to the general masses. Let me explain with my own examples.

Pricing: Comparatively high despite several cost cutting measures.

Back in 2013 when I and my then girlfriend got the Brio, we were young and could afford some loans so we got the Brio as it was a perfect car for two. The car was a hoot to drive, but for the boot space and practicality it offered, the car was priced too high. I would never buy the car if I had kids and was looking to carry four people every time.

Banking on i-vtec technology:

When I did have kids and a bigger family, I seriously liked the BR-V, but the problem was the car was too expensive and the top model had all the bells and whistles. In 2019, The Ertiga Zxi undercut the BR-V by a good 1.5 lakh rupees and. Eventually, the BR-V was getting sold at heavy discounts and I reconsidered it. But the problem was its fuel economy. The lack of hybrid option, Honda ivtec's inherent lack of bottom end torque meant revving the car (happily so) but took a toll on fuel consumption. The low sitting third row seat didn't help. The 4th gen Honda City was considered just for the love of Honda but dropped it as we wanted an MPV and the City was just not exciting enough to change my mind despite my love for Hondas.

I feel that Honda is cashing on a little too much on their revered i-vtec technology, and the market has responded accordingly. If people have accepted Tata's 1.2 petrol engine, then Honda seriously needs to understand that it is not just the engine that sells the car.

They finally got their act together on quality with Elevate and latest Honda City, but are a good 4-5 years behind. I could consider them

What they really need is something exciting like the Tata and Mahindra are doing with their Curvv and Thar.

[sunikkat]

Many have already mentioned, 1.5 I-VTEC engine is story of past, PERIOD. It doesn’t even come close in performance to the 1.5 turbos. And that Honda is just banking on this engine shows the lethargy of Honda India. They can compliment this engine along with a turbo and give options to buyers, but they cannot survive only with this.

[007maverick]

Every Brand has its own unique set of features to differentiate in the market place.
MARUTI - still focuses on FE. 1 ltr engine on new Swift, Hybrid powertrains are all for enticing customers on fuel mileage.
HYUNDAI - stand out design, feature rich, well laid out interiors. Multiple powertrain options for customers, albeit have started rationalising portfolio recently.
KIA - No much difference with its Korean sibling. Just another option for customers who would like to buy Korean car.
TATA- Smartly adopted Safety as a core theme for product development. Early mover advantage on 4 mtr SUV (Nexon) to compete with Ecosport, Diesel and Electric powertrains options.
MAHINDRA - Finally got the focus back on SUVs - upright stance, higher CG, body on chassis vehicles.
NISSAN - VFM SUV & MPVs
TOYOTA- Reliability followed by Safety. Have started compromising on brand promise by launching vehicles designed & manufactured by MSIL.
HONDA - It was Engine, Engine and Engine. Started losing brand appeal with no innovation on Engine core competency either due to sheer complacency or lack of funds to allocate for developing markets.

[07CR]

Superb analysis.

I was in the market last year Dec, and had considered the Elevate briefly and it was supposed to replace my Ecosport S TDCI. I noticed too many flaws in this one.

• The hood design ensured I had absolutely zero visibility of what is in immediate front of the car. My then current cars Ecosport and Sonet too had this, but the bonnet slightly tapered at the front and also despite Sonet's similar shape of bonnet, somehow I had better visibility in Sonet than Elevate. Honda could have easily solved this with a 360 degree camera (front parking camera atleast or front parking sensors nevertheless).
  
• NVH was absolutely terrible @ > 60 Kph. Not from engine per say, but the overall noise insulation was extremely poor for 20L rupees. Leave Sonet (3 Cyl turbo petrol), even my diesel Ecosport had way better NVH than the ZX CVT Elevate.
  
• Rear parking camera didn't have adaptive guidelines. My better half is also currently learning driving the dynamic guidelines in Sonet and Ecosport are of great help to her. I don't understand what prevented Honda to give dynamic guidelines when they did provide the static one!
  
• They provided the Lane watch camera feed on the touchscreen which has extremely sorry resolution. Also shouldn't this be integrated into the MID? What is the use of lane watch if I anyway need to look at touchscreen, while at it, I might even look at the passenger side ORVM instead.
  
• Rear armrest is stationed at a very low level. Doesn't feel comfortable at all. This I observed even with City. In Elevate it's better than City, but not as comfortable as my Sonet or Ecosport.
  
• Rear AC vents didn't feel as powerful as my Sonet's. Also what prevented Honda from providing rear sunblinds which my Sonet gets? I know its a small thing and I could get it fitted aftemarket, but the aftermarket fitments are rarely as good as OEM, and when I am paying 20L, but my 11L smaller car gets such factory fitments, I felt very shortchanged.
  
• Touchscreen responses, UI and layout felt sharper in my Sonet and Ecosport's Sync 3.0.
  
• Sunroof cover felt very lose. It was so lose when I braked hard, it closed automatically! Neither of this ever happened in my Sonet/Ecosport.
  
• While the rear legroom was good, it wasn't as spacious width-wise as a Seltos/Creta of the segment.
  
• Elevate gets the CMBS which is autonomous braking in ADAS terms. I was not able to verify the ADAS a lot, but what I was not happy with is that I needed to disable the CMBS every time the car was switched ON. In my Seltos (eventual car which I bought), the ADAS functions stay OFF unless I switch them ON, thus giving me control.
  
• Absence of a turbo petrol/DCT/Diesel/Diesel AT/ Hybrid options was another bummer. Eventually the customer buys only one car, but I was confused between the Diesel AT and the DCT turbo petrol of the Seltos. I can understand about the diesels as these have no future. But Honda does have turbo petrol in south east asian countries, why not bring it to India?
  
• I am not even coming to the other bits which the competition offers in this segment and Honda misses out on. All other bits mentioned above (except ADAS) are present in Sonet and Ecosport, two cars from a lower segment. The sorry sales (1340 in July) figure definitely show why customers are not buying this car, considering it misses out many thoughtful things the lower end cars are offering for far lesser money.

[ac 427]

Honda makes great cars. Period.

Unfortunately they aren't making as many cars in as many categories to succeed.

A lot of the 'analysts' are comparing Honda to Hyundai, you cannot. They aren't apples to apples comparison.

• Hyundai is available from 5.6 lacs to 46 lacs range.
• Hyundai have 14 cars lines compared to Hondas 4 car lines.
• Honda operates from 7 lacs to approx. 22 lacs range.
• Hyundai has almost 1000 dealerships, Honda has around 400.
• Hyundai has invested more than 5 billion USD in India till now, and is on the way for a further 70 billion USD and has an upcoming IPO.

India is a core market for Hyundai, and as someone rightly pointed out India isn't a core market for Honda.

Almost all Honda products till now from the 1st gen City, to the Accord + Accord V6, to the Brio, to the Amaze, to the CRV are excellent.
Yes they have had a few duds, but which company hasn't.

I feel Honda needs to understand that the Indian buyer wants new and wants it first. Its not that Honda hasn't delivered that, we lapped up the Citys when it was new, we swooned over the original CRV - over 1200 in a year (2003), but times have changed, competition has gotten more aggressive and the customers have gotten spoilt.

I feel sad to see fundamentally solid cars (easy to maintain, ticks all boxes, good brand) struggle. But I am a V-Tec fan and will always be.

cheers,
ac

[Tech]

Car does 999,999 kilometres, Indian in Canada asks Honda for special odometer

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/indi...726-2024-08-19

Nothing more to add or say for Honda's reliability

[MJ23]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

I suspect Honda's focus is elsewhere:

Attachment 2643240

Honda is probably speccing its products to suit ASEAN markets. After all, ASEAN region has GDP equivalent to India's, half of India's population and 2x to 3x GDP per capita.

From Honda's point of view, their strategy is working well:

Attachment 2643246

This makes sense! To be honest, majority of the Indian buyers queue up for all the features, bling and relatively cheaper options while compromising on structural stability and reliability. Even if Honda were to exit the Indian market, that would hardly leave a dent on the world-wide revenues. Therefore, with such bleak ROI prospects why would Honda invest in the Indian market (which is extremely price conscious but still wants the panoramic sunroof!) to bring a product that is structurally stable/safe, reliable AND has all the bling that the Koreans offer. They are better off offering that in the markets which are willing to pay the premium.

My sincere apologies if that offended anyone but that is what I personally feel.

[MJ23]

Originally Posted by Tech

Car does 999,999 kilometres, Indian in Canada asks Honda for special odometer

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/indi...726-2024-08-19

Nothing more to add or say for Honda's reliability

BUT does it have the panoramic sunroof, ventilated front seats or 360 degree camera? No? Will not sell in India.

Jokes aside, the Hondas and Toyotas re-sell like hot cakes in the western world. I can attest to that having bought a 2004 Camry in 2012 for 7700 USD and sold it for 4000 USD in 2017 within 2 days of listing in a small city in US. Reliability is their mojo.