[satyamkolhe]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

This article says E20 compliance involves upgrade of a large number of components -> from fuel tank to the engine. Even the ECU is tweaked. https://www.tvsmotor.com/media/blog/...u-need-to-know

So E20 engines will have none of the disadvantages of ethanol and all the advantages:

Yes. That was my point that the ECU, fuel pumps, injectors, etc will have to be tweaked to make the engines "E20 compliant". They can also be tweaked to make these E20 engines more efficient in terms of power and fuel consumption when running on E20 fuel, like what TVS is doing as per that link.
But when that happens, the performance and efficiency will be different on E15 or E5 fuel blends but will be optimum on E20.

But the engines developed and launched which were E20 compliant before the E20 fuel was available must have been tuned to give better performance and efficiency on the available fuel blends and just tuned enough such that the higher octane number doesn't end up seizing the engine.
This is purely a guess since I couldn't find any information on the ARAI test cycles. But it makes sense considering so many people are experiencing lower efficiency after using fuel with more ethanol.

Doesn't mean that will happen to the engines designed to be most efficient on E20. Those engines might end up being cheaper in terms of running costs( not considering maintenence costs) and have better performance than gasoline engines.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by ads295

Ideally I want to purchase a full tank of fuel + 20%, separate the ethanol (very easy), and run it.

Interesting and how you intend to maintain the octane value of the resultant fuel ?

[somersault]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

This article says E20 compliance involves upgrade of a large number of components -> from fuel tank to the engine. Even the ECU is tweaked.

So E20 engines will have none of the disadvantages of ethanol and all the advantages:

However, in India, E10-15-20 is forced to all vehicles and not just E20 compliant vehicles. There is no choice on offer for older cars. So all of these non compliant engines are at disadvantage as compared to non blended petrol.

I have practically seen the in Mumbai tank full range of my Honda City dropped from 350 KM to 300 over the course of last few years.

[Elevate2024]

Originally Posted by somersault

However, in India, E10-15-20 is forced to all vehicles and not just E20 compliant vehicles. There is no choice on offer for older cars. So all of these non compliant engines are at disadvantage as compared to non blended petrol.

I have practically seen the in Mumbai tank full range of my Honda City dropped from 350 KM to 300 over the course of last few years.

Interesting. Honda has claimed all their cars have been E20 compliant since 2009. There might be some other reason for drop in FE for your Honda City in that case.

But agreed on the choice of fuel. Govt should not force blended fuel on everyone, there should be an incentive to go for E10-15-20 fuel over normal fuel and leave the choice to people.

[jalex77]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

I don't think these claims of such low fuel economy are real. We at Team-BHP should not spread rumors & hearsay like that. Please back it up with science/data/logic. I will go first to prove otherwise:

3) Ethanol is proper fuel! It is not like Ramar Pillai's herbal petrol. With some modifications, all cars can be made to run on pure ethanol.


Further, on E20 compliant engines, there will probably be no change in FE, since ethanol produces more power despite lower energy density.

What I mentioned about fuel economy decreasing earlier in this thread was not hear say or a rumour but my own experience and first hand information that I got out of my 2021 XL6 which Maruti says in its manual can be run using a max of E10 fuel. Maruti also says that if one is not satisfied with the performance of E10 fuel, one should switch to normal non ethanol blended fuel. See, I always tank up when the tank goes half empty and tell the attendant to fill slowly and stop filling at first auto cut off. I also fill up from the best pump in town(have also tried private players like Reliance and Nayara but results were same or worse.). I regularly check the cars' efficiency tank to tank and maintain the tyre pressures as recommended, checking it every week, never seen more than 1-2 psi drop on any tyre ever unless it was a puncture.

I almost always get .2 - .3kms more fuel efficiency than what the car's onboard statistics show as well. Our's is a district with plenty of winding roads and ghat sections. As far as I've seen, Ethanol blends indeed sap power of engines that weren't designed to handle the concoction and that means more downshifts on hilly roads which also results in 15% to a max 20% fuel efficiency decrease in my cars. Obviously the decrease here will be greater than what one might see on flat open or city roads due to the hill sections.

My issue here like many others is where is that normal fuel to switch back cause I am not satisfied with the performance, decreased fuel efficiency and fire hazard situation with Ethanol blends.

There isn't even a choice here to avail one's right to unadulterated fuel, cause when the manufacturer recommended grade is not available and one has to fill a fancy concoction to do nothing but fatten a handful of greedy people's pockets, it's pretty much a situation like Ramar petrol. Ethanol is a proper fuel I agree, but for vehicles designed to handle it in the respective % of blends only.

About the fire hazard I had, My XL6's fuel line(the fuel breather hose) got bored by beetles when it had only done under 7500kms. I was travelling with my whole family that day. I spotted the leak in the nick of time cause we had a halt at a shop, the car's engine was running then, kids were inside and was parked on a slight incline. I got the heavy stench of leaking petrol when we came back out of the shop and ours was the only vehicle there, so I got on my knees and saw a puddle of fuel under the car. I rushed in and turned the engine off while wife got the kids outside. The younger two children were buckled up in their child seat and booster. Our trip that day was on a ghat road and the leak was directly falling onto the rear axle, it would have easily splashed onto the exhaust running close by had we not halted and went on to drive up that winding ghat road after tanking up.

If we got unlucky and had burned in that car after a fire, the authorities would probably close the case saying it was most probably an electrical fire and easily so cause I have an audio upgrade and a pair of Roots windtone horns that I had swapped with the factory pair. People reading the news would debate(here as well) about how I must have got improper wiring and low quality accessories to save a few bucks and ended up getting killed with my whole family. The truth would simply burn with us without a trace and who can say otherwise? It's sad and concerning that vehicle manufacturers do not even have a retrofit solution like perhaps braided fuel hoses to prevent these beetles from destroying the fuel hoses and causing fire hazards.

Same kind of fuel leak happened with my Omni too and in that case, the petrol hoses near the engine as well as the filler hose going into the fuel tank at the rear, all rubber, were bored in multiple spots by the same beetles that get attracted by Ethanol blended fuel. Since the Omni has poor insulation and is used with the door glasses open, I knew about the leaks early on from the heavy stench of fuel inside the cabin.

Ethanol blended fuel might be here to stay, but people should also have the choice like in majority of other countries to get normal /manufacturer recommended fuel for their vehicles modern or classic. That's our right and not a favour or privilege. We have paid and continue to pay substantial taxes and cesses to own and operate our vehicles, even while getting them serviced. The government must ensure that we receive the recommended fuel, at least for the legal age limit before the first retest, during which the vehicle is allowed to operate on public roads.

Originally Posted by Elevate2024

Interesting. Honda has claimed all their cars have been E20 compliant since 2009. There might be some other reason for drop in FE for your Honda City in that case.

Even E20 ready cars will return better fuel efficiency and power figures when they run on pure petrol. This is cause Ethanol has about 33% less energy per unit volume compared to pure petrol. So when one fills E20, one will need to burn more fuel to get the same amount of power from the engine. This difference will be more amplified on hill roads as the amount of downshifts while climbing will be more than usual when compared with using pure in blended petrol.

[Chalu]

Originally Posted by Elevate2024

Interesting. Honda has claimed all their cars have been E20 compliant since 2009. There might be some other reason for drop in FE for your Honda City in that case.

But agreed on the choice of fuel. Govt should not force blended fuel on everyone, there should be an incentive to go for E10-15-20 fuel over normal fuel and leave the choice to people.

Interesting... Was not aware of this information that honda cars are E20 complaint from 2009.
Is this information mentioned in car manual? Or any other sources would be appreciated

[Elevate2024]

Originally Posted by Chalu

Interesting... Was not aware of this information that honda cars are E20 complaint from 2009.
Is this information mentioned in car manual? Or any other sources would be appreciated

Below is the source from where I got the information.

https://www.rushlane.com/honda-cars-...-12465686.html

[somersault]

Originally Posted by Elevate2024

Interesting. Honda has claimed all their cars have been E20 compliant since 2009. There might be some other reason for drop in FE for your Honda City in that case.

E20 ready is one aspect and maintaining fuel efficiency is another aspect. If the car is not E20 ready, it will just stop working one day with degradation of parts and engine. Whereas fuel efficiency is the result of energy quotient of the fuel. With Ethanol blending, the energy quotient drops.

"The energy content of ethanol is lower than that of gasoline. The heating value of ethanol is around 27 MJ/kg, in volumetric terms around 21 MJ/l, which is only 65% of the volumetric energy content of gasoline. This leads to higher volumetric fuel consumption with ethanol compared to gasoline."

Link -

The same Rushlane article also quotes following.
"E20 material compatibility means such vehicles can run on this fuel blend without any negative effects on durability. This commitment mitigates the risk of affecting materials in the fuel system. It provides customers with the confidence to use E20 fuel with ease."

Link -