[saikishor]

This thought popped up to my mind after reading the 2024 Nissan Xtrail review.

So we live in 2024, a time where all sedans are dead and the only thing that sells now are SUV's, or crossovers if I should be perfect. A buyer has so many options if he has to pick a crossover for himself. The segment is mostly dominated by Indian and Korean options.

But what about these Japanese softroaders? They entered this segment way before the Indian players. Let me give you a glimpse of what I noticed.

There was a time when this segment had options where the Japs kinda had solid options. I'm talking about the 3rd and 4th gen Honda CRV, the 2nd gen Nissan Xtrail and the 2nd gen Mitsubishi Outlander. Out of all these cars, the CRV sold in very respectable numbers and the other two sold decently well considering their brand image and market presence back then.

After this, fast forward in time, we have the 5th gen CRV and the 3rd gen Outlander. As far as I remember, both of these cars existed in a similar timeframe. Again, the CRV sold in respectable numbers until 2020 whereas the Outlander probably sold in double digits in its entire run. You could see the Japs completely lost the plot to their competitors.

Now, come 2024, the sole Japanese softroader to exist in the market is being launched in the form of the Nissan Xtrail and if the initial reviews are anything to go by, this car is nothing but a bad launch from Nissan.

Reasons might seem pretty obvious to members and me as well, but I would like to hear what others opinions are on the downfall of these Japanese softroaders. I for one absolutely love the 4th gen Honda CRV. It still looks like a spaceship to my eyes.

[SmartCat]

Kodiaq/C5 Aircross/Tiguan/Tucson/Koleos etc is not a great success story either. So it has nothing to do with the Japs. It's just that market size for large softroaders is around 500 units per month

[saikishor]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Kodiaq/C5 Aircross/Tiguan/Tucson/Koleos etc is not a great success story either. So it has nothing to do with the Japs. It's just that market size for large softroaders is around 500 units per month

The cars you have mentioned have sold much better than their Japanese counterparts. So there surely has to be something with the ones from Japan.

[CARDEEP]

The earlier Jap soft-roaders (or maybe we can ignore the Jap connection) were ahead of the medieval times 7 big quasi SUVs Body-on-Frame (Ladder Chassis) that we had around 20 years ago. CRV was successful to a great extent, but petrol & missing hardcore 4X4 capabilities meant those were essentially viewed as niche products/ segment.

It was not until the XUV500 that broke the taboo with its refined diesel on big soft-roader, after which these has been flurry of full size products in segment & in premium segment.

The CRV then & now the X-Trail still pull a string & given a option (more courtesy the idiots at NGT) I will definitely evaluate the Jap petrol (&/ or hybrid) soft-roaders & few in premium segment in next 3-5 years.

I still fee the EV rage is only a bit longer than what it was 100 years ago & eventually some new really green technology will take over for mass transportation in some years.

[IshaanIan]

The XUV 500 is what happened. It sort of democratised the soft roader and made it more accessible to people considering the high tax our government slaps on CBUs. The Japanese can never produce their soft roaders here because there’s no way Indian suppliers would be able to meet the levels of quality they demand for D-Segment vehicles. That said I feel it is high time they launched their little sports cars here since there isn’t any competition as such for an MX5 or a GR86. Sure we will all call them overpriced at 40lakhs but a lot of us might just end up buying them because there aren’t any other options out there. I mean you cannot get a German sports car with a manual gearbox unless you spend bucket loads of money on a Cayman or an M2 and even though I feel the M2 looks quite nice it is simply too big and wide to enjoy on our roads. A nice little GR86 is the need of the hour to replace their big underperforming soft roaders in our market

[TorquePull]

Originally Posted by saikishor

The cars you have mentioned have sold much better than their Japanese counterparts. So there surely has to be something with the ones from Japan.

Maybe, they all came with solid diesel engine?

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

The XUV 500 is what happened. It sort of democratised the soft roader and made it more accessible to people considering the high tax our government slaps on CBUs. The Japanese can never produce their soft roaders here because there’s no way Indian suppliers would be able to meet the levels of quality they demand for D-Segment vehicles.

I humbly disagree, basis your own example. The 5OO, by and large was a runaway success because it had the chops in terms of design , engine performance, and largely good ownership experiences. If quality related niggles were such an issue, the consumers would have punished it. I believe the Japanese manufacturers are just not interested and hence are not willing to make heavy long term commitments. We have seen their investments water down to a few models apart from Suzuki. Innova / Fortuner are the only significant successes in the last 10 years.
Honda is on thin ice, and Toyota seems too content with the Suzuki partnership to rush in their own stuff.

[anjan_c2007]

Nearly all these listed Japanese soft softroaders were imported as CKD kits or as CBU's and were never fully manufactured in India. Hence, the model life was dictated by the parent and as soon as the model was changed over internationally, the "imported" tag saw to it that the newer model was assembled or imported here. As a result, the spares supply for older models lasted till the parent thought it OK to market these here and as a rule the import duties jacked up the prices. Like for instance a 2017 Honda CRV's front suspension strut costs around Rs 22 K (only imported available) while the Honda City's strut costs Rs 4.5 K (Indian made).

The Japanese must have had marketing studies done to ascertain their probable low volume sales prior to the respective launches. And that would have prompted them to import these as CKD kits or as CBU units.

[PrideRed]

Originally Posted by saikishor

Reasons might seem pretty obvious to members and me as well, but I would like to hear what others opinions are on the downfall of these Japanese softroaders. I for one absolutely love the 4th gen Honda CRV. It still looks like a spaceship to my eyes.
Attachment 2631548

CRV sold well for its time and Outlander/Xtrail has to do with poor manufacturer support than being soft roader. Barring lancer and Pajero, Mitsubishi never sold any car well. Same with Nissan, they never managed to sell any premium product.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

If quality related niggles were such an issue, the consumers would have punished it.

I’m sorry but there’s no way you can compare the QC practices of Mahindra to the Japanese. Our own forum has enough threads on issues with the XUV 500s there’s even an owner whose son suffered severe injuries in a major crash where not one of the airbags on the W8 variant opened. The only reason they sell is because we like buying cars from our own nation and that is the case world over. If you look at Japan, 95% of all cars sold there are Japanese with Toyota leading the bunch and Suzuki in second. Whereas here in India Tata and Mahindra don’t sell that much and that is purely because of their quality issues. They sell quite a lot but not as much as if they were to take full advantage of national pride.

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

I believe the Japanese manufacturers are just not interested and hence are not willing to make heavy long term commitments.

that is true but it is also our government’s tendency to making knee-jerk rule changes and I do firmly believe that no D-Segment and up Japanese car can currently be produced to the same standard in India. Our suppliers cannot make stuff to that standard yet and that is the same reason why no one except for Tata and Mahindra are doing it.

[DicKy]

May seem unfashionable to say nowadays, but going to say anyways.

Lack of diesel.

The 1st and 2nd gen X-trail was sold in India with a wonderful diesel engine and the vehicle itself was capable, but a CBU from a less known company when there were other Bof SUVs and CR-V meant sales were low.

The 2nd gen Outlander was a wonderful car and would have done well if it had come with a diesel engine, though HM-Mitsubishi saw it fit only to launch the petrol-CVT. Competition tightened by the time the 3rd gen came with the same formula but am yet to see even one on the road.

The CR-V was definitely a success even though it was a guzzler and petrol only. The 2nd and 3rd generation were successful with sales concentrated in the metros, but by the time the 4th gen came, sales started dwidling. The 5th gen tried to make amends with a diesel, but by that time the market had moved on and the diesel itself was mediocre by segment standards. Those who used to buy CR-V had either moved onto the Superb/Germans or have downsized their cars post retiring.

The one missing is the pioneer of this segment, the RAV-4. But Toyota has never ever thought of launching it here let alone with a diesel engine.

Right now, even if they wanted to, their hands are tied as the vehicles themselves have gone more upmarket and a result more cost prohibitive for the Indian market. Toyota or Honda find it hard even to launch something smaller like Yaris Cross/Corolla Cross or ZR-V/HR-V let alone models like RAV4/CR-V.

[Axe77]

Originally Posted by DicKy

…
Lack of diesel.

Indeed.

The one missing is the pioneer of this segment, the RAV-4. But Toyota has never ever thought of launching it here let alone with a diesel engine.

I sat in a RAV 4 strong hybrid cab recently in Europe with family and a fortnight’s worth of family luggage. In my eyes for my needs it would be the perfect product. Great boot, comfortable back seat, the interiors are pleasant enough, regulatory longevity being a petrol engine and it’s a robust strong hybrid to boot for FE. I would buy this in a heartbeat if they ever launched it in India. Not oversized like a Hycross and not too compromised on space like a Hyryder.

I am sure if they launch it here between a Hycross and Fortuner, say under 45 - 50L on road, it will be a very strong sales success.

[GTO]

Complete lack of commitment, IMHO. Honda was always lazy, and the last CR-V sold in India was grossly overpriced, had a puny 1.6L diesel in a 35-lakh car, didn't come with features like front parking sensors and weirdly, the 7-seater was offered just with the diesel. Mitsubishi, as we all know, was too weak at the global level, had no money and got absorbed by the Nissan-Renault alliance. Nissan India is a one-trick pony currently (Magnite) - they are bringing the X-Trail and I'm happy to see more product options in the segment, but it's going to have limited success in the market (CBU, missing features, weak brand, tiny dealership network etc.). The X-Trail will most likely do a "Meridian" or worse.

In the end, intense competition, lack of investments, product updates and no innovation led to their death. The 30-50 lakh rupee segment is flooded with great options. XUV700, Scorpio-N, Innova Hycross, Tiguan, Kodiaq, Tucson, Fortuner etc. etc. You can't get away with laziness anymore in the Indian market, nor can you take success for granted.

BHPians will find it hard to believe, but at one time, Honda was the No.1 in every segment it competed in = City, Civic, Accord & CR-V were all the No.1 (or close No.2s) in their respective segments. The Mitsubishi Lancer, in the late 90s, fought tooth & nail with the 1st-gen Honda City for sales and had a wild following (I owned one too & absolutely loved it).

[narayans80]

Wasn't CRV a CBU? And had a petrol engine that produced single digit FE? I guess it had a diesel for a very short time.

Mitsubishi is totally invisible.

Unless one is hell bent on buying a Honda or Nissan CBU midsize. One can buy a Innova or Carnival for much less that offers comparable FE with locally manufactured spares to boot. As a bonus you get an additional row of seats.

Not to forget, Honda's image took a beating with the QC issues in the 2010s.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by Axe77

...a RAV 4 strong hybrid Great boot, comfortable back seat, the interiors are pleasant enough,...... Not oversized like a Hycross and not too compromised on space like a Hyryder.

I am sure if they launch it here between a Hycross and Fortuner, say under 45 - 50L on road, it will be a very strong sales success.

That space is ripe for a product. Not everyone wants to haul around a vehicle the size of the Hycross neither do they want to compromise on a rebadged Maruti. But since Toyota had cancelled the 340D they seem to believe that this would be enough. (Toyota plans 3 new cars for India | Electric SUV, Mild-Hybrid Fortuner and 7-seater Hyryder)