[ringoism]

https://thenewshimachal.com/2024/07/...oss-districts/

Regarding Delhi/NCR and that expanding belt/few other places, this kind of thing has been discussed in some detail. But now we are coming to the question of rural, generally low-population-density regions. Some thoughts/ questions on both sides of it:

1. 15 years in some way seems a reasonable lifespan for a vehicle.

2. Obviously we would want pristine/ cleaner natural realms to remain as such.

3. Population is increasing in parts of H.P. due to the influx of settlers from outside the state. And there is also the maddening tourist traffic flow to consider.

4. Focus in the article curiously seems to be on safety and the assumed lack of this in older vehicles.

However, as counterpoints/ questions:

1. In H.P. news recently, it was also stated that tenders had been put out for automated, high-tech vehicle safety inspection centers; So assuming a vehicle has been inspected pre-renewal, what's the safety issue???

2. Banning the use of used parts promotes safety in what respect? If a mechanic takes a door glass (or whole door!) from a 15-year old Bolero and puts it on a 9-year old Bolero which was vandalized / damaged, what is the safety disadvantage there? Why should anyone have to pay a high premium on new factory parts to repair a vehicle which is beyond the halfway point of its use cycle? Very questionable.

2. Granted, many older cars lacked airbags/ ABS, but A) No evidence has been forthcoming demonstrating that accident/ serious injury / death rates have decreased in the state/ other hill regions since the advent of these technologies or in vehicles so-equipped; and B) If my 15-year-old DOES have these features and is well-maintained, how is it less safe than a 7-10 year-old?

3. If the state is SO concerned about road safety, then why don't they direct police to get strict about traffic violations? I have seen local cops here daily looking the other way as multiple vehicles headed wrong way up a four-lane divided highway to more quickly access a parking lot there. Many people (still) don't know how to properly turn across a lane of oncoming traffic, typically stopping on the shoulder and waiting for those behind them to pass by before making an attempt! They often don't use turn indicators, or dip high-beams at night, they overspeed, drive rashly, talk on the phone, etc, with almost complete impunity. Locals and tourists alike. These are apparently over-lookable.

But put a good used part on a car??? Now that's dangerous!!!???

4. On that note also would wonder why such a keenly safety-conscious authority is still using an archaic "parking-test" in lieu of a proper driving test in the qualification/certification of new motor vehicle operators. Is it a safe assumption that those who know how to park their vehicle in a specific scenario are going to be safe and responsible drivers? Any data out there on how many accidents are caused by poor parking skills vs. all the bad driving habits / continual violations cited above? Answer pretty obvious.

5. Coming to pollution:

A) Why are grossly-polluting sub-15 y-o tourist vans billowing smoke clouds not being detained / fined/ cited?

B) Why is it that neither of our local PUC facilities can be bothered to actually put a probe in the pipe of any vehicle they're printing PASS certificates for?

C) If air pollution in a sensitive region is so vitally important, then why is nobody in the state pollution board taking up the issue of locals burning unseasoned firewood or (much worse) plastic refuse in their tandoors for months every winter? Why do Forest Guards / inspectors remain so bribe-able re: illegal tree-felling? Etc.

My big concern:

There are many of relatively low income level in the state for whom purchasing a new vehicle is a very difficult proposition. The public transport options are not complete nor always running on very feasible time schedules. Ror many, having a family vehicle available can be crucial in terms of getting kids to school, earning a little extra in micro-scale businesses that most here need to be involved in: delivering a couple crates of vegetables or fruits to the wholesale market, taking a goat someplace, or else family members to a wedding, or even to hospital late night!

5. Coming to the influx of tourists: Low-budget masses will be coming in on recent BS-standard tourist buses/vans, as anyway older ones have already been banned. As for settlers, anyone able to afford land lease/ purchase up here by now can be considered relatively affluent, and will not be seen in older vehicles anyway.

As for us, the Marshal has been renewed twice already, will be 25 years old in 2026. It is a BS2 standard. It is well-maintained and unlike any newer-standard vehicles we see running locally, doesn't emit visible smoke. At this point we keep it as a backup/special use vehicle, probably drive it 20km's per week, and at that rate there is absolutely no doubt, scientifically speaking, that crushing/scrapping it and melting it all down for raw materials for a new car, throwing unrecyclable items into landfills, etc, is going to have a worse environmental impact than our keeping and driving it a few hundred km's per year for another five years.

Our neighbor has an old Gypsy that he uses similarly, i.e., very little.

Some developed nations have introduced voluntary scrappage programs, in conjunction with higher re-registration fees for older cars. That is fully rational. Other incentives as described here also effective WITHOUT mandatory scrappage.

India no doubt has a high population density overall and needs to protect its environment and the health of everyone. But anything perceieved as draconian/ pandering to the interests of auto-industry lobbyists at the expense of the common-man, is not likely to be well-received, and will very likely be ignored by many. In which case roads will be replete with illegal/ ill-maintained/ uninsured vehicles - thus making the initiative ultimately counterproductive on all points.

If gov claims they'll get tough on enforcement, then the valid questions raised in points above re: current lack of enforcement of safe driving practices / effective pollution testing, etc, would be very pertinent.

For the record, I would happily pay even three or four times the Road-Tax if it meant I could keep my backup vehicle, its complete legality providing strong ongoing incentive to maintain it well.

I feel that almost no decision I've seen in this realm has being truly data-driven. Whenever driven by other whims/ motivations / perceptions, they will do little or nothing towards acheiving stated goals. Basic rule towards largescale improvement in ANY realm is that focus and efforts must be placed on the most potentially impactful actions/ initiatives first.

This one will NOT be impactful, I am quite sure. How many 15+ year olds are daily driven here? And yet these limited/ occasional use cases are so valuable for so many. I also see how in decisions like these, the rich get richer and the poor poorer, and that feels wrong to me.

It would also be good to see some allowances made and rules formed for the continued, limited use of "classic" cars and bikes of 25 years (as defined in developed nations) or older. This was alluded to somewhere in the last revision of the Motor Vehicle Act, as I recall, but I hear very little about it. And this ruling could seem to conflict with that Law, as well.

I realize that the average person rather than raising questions will just act subversively. If the law is inequitable/ impractical, it is ignored. But I don't believe that's the best or most satisfying solution.

Other thoughts / discussion welcomed.

-Eric

[ralto]

This, in my opinion, is a bad idea. And my reasoning is simple: people don't have enough money.

I know so many friends and relatives who simply buy used cars. Especially budget cars as in the hills lifespan of cars is relatively lower, so it makes sense to buy used cars from adjoining states (like Chandigarh) and then use them. Plus small footprint is a major requirement. (off-topic: that is why you still see quite a few Jimny's there)

Using a new car on the kind of roads we have (non-highway) pinches your heart. I can definitely see people having to give up their workhorses and more importantly put undue pressure on the pockets of those who may not be able to afford new cars, that too at a time when a basic car almost costs 5 lakhs OTR now.

And to give a real-life example: I have 2 Altos in my own house. A pre-owned 2010 Alto and a 2011 Alto-K10. It means in the next 2 years I would need to replace 2 of my cars, one of which is in mechanically excellent condition. In fact, just this past week, I just took a quote from a garage to give the aging car some love and get a new coat of paint. But now I need to reconsider because I might need to give it up soon.

State govt. understand the income capacity and challenges of people, yet having a blanket ban doesn't sound good. Also, we can't compare this with Delhi's ban of 10/15 years simply because of economic factors.


Leaving behind a digital footprint of the 2 workhorses, out of which one happens to be my first car ever.

Pic 1: My father's workhorse to the right, and my weekend warrior (now sold) to the left.

Pic 2: My first car which is at 13 year mark now.

[IshaanIan]

I hope this spurs people into taking action against the state and such arbitrary rulings that they impose. It is always us car buyers that are taxed to infinity. The way poor people cook on high flame in high smoke all the time, the way factories pollute the air, the unchecked development that occurs, all of that pollutes way more than some 15 year old BS2 vehicles on the road it simply is not fair that car owners have to depart with well maintained vehicles and I genuinely hope we all get together and sue the forces that may be.

[el lobo 6061]

Few days back article came for more than Rs 60,000 crore car inventory lying with dealers.

Seems car manufactures will now lobby State Govts to implement mandatory 15 years scrapping of cars to increase sales.

See no logic with it.

Have a 13.5 year old VW Vento 1.6 TDi and drives like a charm. No car can match it in terms of power, efficiency and fun to drive factor.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...inventory.html (Unsold inventory for carmakers at 60,000 Crore (62-67 days inventory))

[Captain Slow]

Originally Posted by el lobo 6061

Few days back article came for more than Rs 60,000 crore car inventory lying with dealers.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...inventory.html (Unsold inventory for carmakers at 60,000 Crore (62-67 days inventory))

As usual rules made to effect the normal working class of people!
0 sense in these rules!

[rdhawan15]

There are multiple issues in the scrappage policy. The scrappage policy offers incentives to scrap the vehicle and get a new one.

As part of the proposed vehicle scrappage policy, once you share the vehicle scrappage certificate from the registered scrapping agency, you are entitled to:

- 5% discount from the manufacturer in Ex-showroom price
- Registration tax waiver

However, this policy is not being implemented at this point. The State Governments need to step forward and provide the benefits for new vehicle purchases.

The Government expects people to scrap vehicles. But, it does not yield the proposed benefits for the new vehicle purchases.

This is the practical feedback I have received in Delhi. I may be wrong. But, the fact remains that as of now, there is an absolute lack of clarity and directions about:

- Getting discounts on new vehicle purchases based on scrapping certificate

- Waiver of Registration tax of the new vehicle, especially for vehicles which have been marked unusable in 10 years and the owners had paid registration tax for 15 years.

It is a matter of time before these issues will reach the Courts.

The actual process of environment conservation would be

- to discourage new vehicle manufacturing as it is more carbon intensive than running an old vehicle

However, if new vehicle purchase has to be encouraged, then please provide the promised benefits to the owners of scrapped vehicles under the Vehicle Scrappage Policy.

Hopefully, the Government can take steps to resolve this anomaly in this fiscal's budgetary provisions.

The vehicle scrapping policy needs to address concerns of the affected parties whose pristine condition vehicles are being scrapped without offering them the necessary plan benefits envisaged in the 'Vehicle Scrappage Policy'.


People should scrap vehicles of their own choice. They must be incentivized to buy new vehicles.

[Vikash Kumawat]

Rajasthan Govt has also announced the strictness on 10 years old Diesel and 15 years old petrol vehicles, as of now the limitations are only on the commercial vehicles only but I can bet that this rule will be applicable on private vehicles very soon, older than 10 years and 15 years petrol and diesel commerical vehicles will not be allowed to enter Kota, Jodhpur, Jaipur and NCR area ( Alwar and Bharatpur ).
Currently own a 2013 Diesel Swift, this news putting me in stress as we just bought the car as used and we can't afford a new car. Sometimes I feel like govt is breaking the backbone of lower and middle class.

[Cry0gen]

This 15 year scrappage policy will be a menace. A car engine is designed to last a lifetime, which is more than this 15 year mark. IMHO, the govt should notify improper upkeep and maintenance as a crime and penalise the owners accordingly. The state should enforce that a car is maintained periodically else a huge tax will be imposed.This should be done keeping the ongoing climate crisis in mind. Scrapping a car will make way to a new car which in itself will be damaging to the environment.

And if this really becomes a norm, then we should brace ourselves for such engines from the manufacturers which lasts just that long.

[manver786]

Its the NGT's Judgment which was upheld by the Hon'ble Supreme Court is responsible. However, the review is still pending before the Court. I feel Govts are acting under compulsion.

[Doge]

It is getting more and more tempting to join the " immigration to a foreign land " thread.
Absolutely brain dead move, producing new cars causes a lot of pollution too. What about new EV's, would they also be scrapped after 15 years?

[saket77]

We should stop acting like a fully developed country as if our per capita income allows us to buy overpriced cars frequently.

Heck, even the fully developed countries don't have this mandatory scrappage of vehicles in 15 years.

[MT_Hyderabad]

I was so delighted to see old 800s moving around happily in the hills.

I dont see pollution angle to it. It is much more safe to be in a car on a hill and these small cars were easy on pocket for the local community. Such blanket rules should not be made and only the vehicles which are not fit should be removed.

[MadMaxDiesel]

I don’t get this. In NCR if you are buying a new diesel car you have to pay road tax for 15 years, you get the RC which has 15 years life printed on it. Then why this 10 years rule is being enforced when tax is being payed for 15 years. This is daylight robbery. Return the 5 years extra tax being charged back to customers.

[maddy42]

Originally Posted by el lobo 6061

Few days back article came for more than Rs 60,000 crore car inventory lying with dealers.

Seems car manufactures will now lobby State Govts to implement mandatory 15 years scrapping of cars to increase sales.

See no logic with it.

Have a 13.5 year old VW Vento 1.6 TDi and drives like a charm. No car can match it in terms of power, efficiency and fun to drive factor.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...inventory.html (Unsold inventory for carmakers at 60,000 Crore (62-67 days inventory))

When states coffers run dry, such schemes are planned as the impact on the leaders in power in 0. I really hope better sense prevails as any vehicle doesnt suddenly become unfit. It is better you have inspections done like how it is done in the US and that should be the basis of road worthiness.

[JithinR]

I guess governments these days (regardless of party) just want either poor people who are desperate for subsidies (and coincidentally include good for nothing elements that can murder, loot for them) or really rich folks who will bankroll these guys in return for more corruption.

As another member mentioned, they are just providing more incentives for middle class youth to immigrate out of this damn country to one that doesn't treat you like just a budget line item.

If more states start picking this disease up, then I guess the only way out for someone like me would be to exclusively stick to used petrol hatchbacks and sub compact SUV's and run them into the ground till we are forced to scrap it (since the resale value of a car will plummet at it approaches the 10yr mark with these rules).