[satyamkolhe]

Originally Posted by vinya_jag

My guess is that these regions where most of the VW/Skoda engineers are from, are very expensive, paid in Euros. While, all other regions of car manufacturing who are trumping in India are from the lower salaried world. Or, they just feel that their engineers are so much more capable than the rest of the world.
This is just an underestimation of the talent and resource pool available outside their Engineering Zone.

While this is something the Europeans really believe in, that cheap engineers are bad engineers, I don't think thats what anyone was trying to say here. And the image is changing in International markets about Indian cars. People know that a lot of good cars from famous brands are built in India.

Even engineering-wise, people have started to take notice. I know people in South Africa and Australia who are amazed at the capabilities of Mahindra cars and love their capabilities at the price they come.

PS- Does the image show largest export of each country? And how on earth is Ireland exporting so much BLOOD.

[TurboTorque]

One of Skoda’s representatives/admins of the Skodaverse India discord community commented below for the news "Over-engineered cars launched by Group in India were a mistake?". I just felt that he was just twisting the news or defending.


Source: Skodaverse India discord community.

Unless they improve their customer service and dealership attitude, they will be bound to fail. I penned down my delivery, post-delivery saga, and 2nd service experience at below thread.

Delivery experience: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...i-did-pdi.html (Post-Purchase Pains | Skoda Slavia Delivery Saga | Got a different car than the one I did PDI for)

2nd service experience: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...ml#post5790660 (Skoda Slavia Review)

I wholeheartedly wish them to improve their negatives and find a way to sustain themselves in the Indian market without selling under-engineered cars because most of us bought their cars because of so-called over-engineered.

[volkman10]

The 'Over-Engineered 'to join the 'Under-Engineered' to create 'Competitively- Engineered' cars!

[fhdowntheline]

This is like someone from the UK opening a restaurant specializing in haggis and yorkshire pudding and then complaining that people are not up to savouring traditional British cuisine.
I have owned a Polo, yes, it is a fantastic car , but saying it is "over engineered" is a bit much. Ultimately market forces decide your fate. VW Skoda need to come down from their own little stratosphere and look at the trends.

[R_Gowardhan]

It is shocking to see responses of most members and their perception about the outcome of "over-engineering" being only the heft of the cars.

Please understand that Skoda-VW cars were/are built very differently from their Japanese/Korean/Indian counterparts. Eg,

1. The grade of plastics used were to withstand extreme cold climate which most regions in India barely experience. They changed this by a few notches in 2.0 to save on cost.

2. All electronics on the cars are controlled centrally and the underlying logics enabled the cars to have some very intelligent features. On the flip side, if something goes wrong with a particular electronic unit, it may affect something seemingly unrelated adding to unreliablity perception. Japanese car electronics are fairly simple hence reliable. But in comparison deliver a very dumb / lacklusture user experience. I am yet to see one-touch up-down on all 4 power windows with pinch control and remote control in a non VW car. Polo onwards all cars have had this as standard till 2.0. Also, while the hazard lights are on, if you press the turn signal, it over rides the hazard lights.

3. The amount of sound dampening used in their entry level Polo/Fabia or Vento/Rapid puts much pricier competiton cars to shame. Was it really necessary at the given price point is another topic.

4. There was huge amount of provisioning available on entry level cars to add features from 2-3 segments above. You can add almost every modern feature to these cars which originated in 2009.

5. The Polo shares a lot of parts with Audi which may not have been necessary if the cars were under-engineerd since day 1.

Because of this the consumer gained in experience till everything worked well. But once even a minor issue cropped up, the consumer was left in lurch. The over-engineering meant difficulty in sorting of simple issues even by A.S.S.

Contrary to popular opinion, I feel this is a welcome statement by the CEO. As long as the cars are being simplified and not being just stripped down, it would be in everyone's interest.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by R_Gowardhan

Contrary to popular opinion ...

Many of the contributors to this thread do not have popular opinion. We have personal experience. What's more, many of us still love our cars, despite the AC vents, the ABS sensors, the diesel injectors, and, for the really unlucky, the DSG gearboxes.

Many of us still recommend these cars. We try to point out that some of these problems are real, they do happen, but maybe not as often as they fear.

Many of us are not at all happy that some of the better stuff in the older cars has been removed from newer models. 4-window auto-up-down? I have it. 2014 car.

Plastics made to withstand extreme cold? Really? In my 2010 car, they wouldn't even stand the AC stream. They all fell apart in a year or two. In my 2014 car they are better, but still cracking up. Not engineered to withstand any temperature.

Sound dampening? My 2010 car was really good. My current car, not so much: listen to rain on the roof. Well, you'll have no choice: it's loud!

We VW buyers don't need to be told how good the older ones were. It is only partly true anyway. And that later ones may not have the same features because they have been cost-cut only makes us sad.

I'm a fanboy. I really am. And a mostly happy owner. But I'm not blind.

[rajneeesh]

VW cars are not built to our sensibilities. Their SUVs look significantly smaller than those offered by competitors. In India road presence and size are an important factor for people buying SUV's. When I was looking to replace my Safari Storme and pointed out the Taigun as a possible replacement, my wife straigtaway turned it down saying it was "just a big hatch or a Ladies SUV".

While my wife may not know much about cars, what she says is in line with the general thought process. Indians look for size and feel good features and gizmos. The VW cars lack them in comparison to competition.

The poor after sales service and more frequent failure of parts has also taken away the "German Engineering" talking point. VW/ Skoda has some of the most notorius service centres/ dealers who are known to rip off their customers.

With VW/ Skoda no longer offering Diesel engined cars, they have reduced their appeal even further compared to Tata, Mahindra and the Korean Twins. Maruti offers the hybrids and the CNG versions so lack of diesel does hurt but not as much as it does for VAG brands. Overengineered Cars is just bunkum in my opinion. These vehicles had good solid feel a decade back. Now they are not much different from the models offered by other players. To top it off, they are too simple or sober looking for the Indian buyers who do like their cars with a lot of bling.

The western world needs to respect local sensitivities and demands. They forget the basic rule i.e. "customer is king " and instead have what in my opinion is a patronising attitude.

[shortbread]

VW has a terrible cost-control problem not an over-engineering one. They regularly use this excuse whenever faced with challenging sales data, 'oh our cars have a price disadvantage because they're over engineered'.

Strong unions, bloated management structure, inefficient R&D processes, inconsistent strategic decision making, one could go on. Somehow every time VW enters a large market, they insist on spending a fortune on market specific products, rather than engineer global cars. Also, adding Skoda, Seat etc. to the portfolio meant sharing development costs and enjoy the economic benefits of commonality, what exactly happened there? Currently Skoda and Seat are hamstrung by VW's pricing disadvantage instead. The company is hanging on thanks to Porsche and Audi's strong margins.

Originally Posted by volkman10

The 'Over-Engineered 'to join the 'Under-Engineered' to create 'Competitively- Engineered' cars!

Attachment 2624194

Mahindra under engineered, A tad disrespectful don't you think? M&M have far greater R&D prowess than Suzuki anyday, whether it's the Japanese parent or the Indian subsidiary. Being very blunt Suzuki cannot make a car as good as the XUV700, definitely not on their own.

[Satkaj]

I would like to stand corrected but now if I read between the line , they are trying to copy collaboration between Toyota and Maruti. Toyota gained their volumes tremendously by rebadging Maruti cars. Toyota has managed to increase their customer base and loyalty on the other hand, even customers have welcomed this move forgiving Toyota. Though I do not own either of the brand but the collaboration has helped both the Japanese company.

Toyota was smart enough by not making such statements and they just went ahead and delivered what was expected out of this JV.

Good , clever engineering with better built was USP of Skoda/ VW cars which was any way deteriorating with time and with above admission it looks like they are making up their mind to convert them self in to mass market products.

[varunswnt]

India 2.5: Decoding Skoda's big plan to revive its fortunes

Skoda exited the Russian market when the country attacked Ukraine, taking a USD 742 million hit. Now, it is planning to phase out its presence in China due to intense competition from local players. It now believes that outside of Europe, India is its best bet.

"From a business perspective, it's not always wise to stand on only one leg," explains Skoda Auto CEO Klaus Zellmer, referring to its European operations. "If it gets a little shaky, you want to stand on the second leg, which for us is India...It is the place to be, going forward." Skoda’s aim is to be the best-selling European brand in India by 2030. The Skoda Auto Volkswagen group — which includes Skoda, Volkswagen and Audi AG brands— currently has a market share of around 2.25%. It wants to raise this to 4% by 2026 and 5% by 2030. In terms of volumes, the automaker wants to sell 1,00,000 Skoda vehicles annually in India by 2026, besides exporting from India to the ASEAN and Middle East regions.

At the core of the company's India 2.5 plan is the launch of a new compact SUV, built on Skoda's proprietary MQB-A0-IN platform and slated to debut in early 2025. The new model will be priced between Rs 8 lakh to Rs 15 lakh, and pitted against notable competitors such as the Maruti Brezza, Kia Sonet, and Tata Nexon.

"With the sub-4-metre, we want to significantly increase our market share in the most demanding segment which comprises more than 50% of the market. I'm convinced that it has hit the bullseye in terms of technology, fit and finish," Zellmer said.

This time, a key area of focus for the company has been to get the pricing right. Moreover, Skoda’s traditional premium positioning in India has led to the perception among consumers that Skoda cars tend to be relatively expensive compared to other options available in the market. "We have a lot of lessons learnt in the Indian market. Often we build (a) car according to our own expectations. They tend to be over-engineered. That comes at a price tag. And that's something that weakens your competitive position," he said. The company plans to cut costs by scaling and localizing. For example, one of the engine derivatives is now fully built in India. The sub-4m SUV will have 75-76% localization. The company also plans to use excise benefits and pass them on to customers.

Zellmer is careful about hitting the sweet spot in the cost versus quality trade-off. "We want to build the cars that customers in India are willing to pay for. The idea is to provide a car that's even better than what's typically being catered to, in that segment," he said.

"Competitors are outselling us. There's room for more if we get the sweet spot right. People who buy European cars in India go for quality...Nobody wants to end up in a price war. We want to make sure the car is worth its price value and we're trying to hit that sweet spot," Zellmer added. The car will be produced in the same production line where the company’s 2.0 products like the Kushaq and Slavia are made.

While Zellmer accepts that India has a predatory car environment, he also believes that it's also the one with the most headroom for growth. "We're no. 4 in Europe. We're going to take that success, strategy and portfolio [to India], depending on what makes sense to the Indian market. We're still learning, and humble, and we're willing to be totally customer centric," he said.

Zellmer is optimistic that the company's new compact SUV will not face the same fate as the Fabia hatchback, which was launched in India in 2008 but discontinued due to declining sales and an unsustainable cost structure, among other factors. The success of this new SUV in India, and the India 2.5 plan depends on Skoda's ability to accurately anticipate market dynamics, cultivate strategic alliances, and genuinely resonate with Indian consumers this time around.

[ac 427]

Classical 'we westerners are better than you gareeb Indians' feels form the new brand head.

I hate such disdainful approach towards India and Indian buyers/customers.

There are so many problems I can state that the SAIPL (Skoda Auto India Pvt Ltd) have, that are leading to poor sales. And "BETTER ENGINNERED" cars are NOT one of them.

infact by making such a claim - that we will make poorly enginnered cars, the few oens that are attracted to your brand will distance themselves - as the only reason why they wanted to get a Skoda/VW was their better engineering.

The brand head took their 'apparent USP' and said - oh, okay - now that is not what we stand for.

Gora's cannot be at the drivers seat for Indian companies, and specially where the purchase decision is so involved.

Hate to see Skoda getting is wrong, again and again and again. And Again.

[supermax]

Germans take pride in their engineering, but traditionally, Germans only engineer to a spec. They follow the spec to the last bit, but nothing more. Use the product as intended, and it works and remains working for really long times, sometimes even absurdly long times, but if you take the product out of its design parameters, it fails straightaway. Its the Japanese who over-engineer, which is what leads to indestructible Jeremy Clarkson proof Toyotas and what have you. To hear this statement from the Skoda CEO makes it seem like a spoof article rather than a real one!

Originally Posted by arunphilip

The day when "over-engineered" became a bad word was a sad day for all consumers.

Exactly right. He's trying to cut corners which don't even exist!

Originally Posted by GForceEnjoyer

The fact that these cars were "over-engineered" was literally the very reason so many of us chose to buy them!

Exactly right. Truth be told, they never exhibited over engineering, but one had hopes that they'd learn from their India experience to deliver more sturdy and abuse-tolerant aka over engineered products, but this tone-deaf statement is ample proof that they have no ability whatsoever to read the room.

Originally Posted by Rajeevraj

Finally a proper report on what all the CEO said and meant. Glad to see a proper detailed report without any half truths and sensationalism.

And it's a pretty dumb thing to say in a country which really needs over engineered products due to the extremely harsh and unforgiving operating conditions. He's basically opened his mouth wide and stuck his shoe right in.

[volkman10]

Over engineered cars to be designed optimally as the German Group will hand over the reins to Mahindra.

- M&M is keen on acquiring a 50% stake in Skoda Auto VW India

- The deal could have an immediate impact on the development of the next-gen Kushaq and Taigun. These were scheduled to be made on the VW Group’s MQB A0 37 platform, but the Czech carmaker is struggling to make them within the cost target and currently, there is a cost overuun of around 800–900 Euros .

-The European major could end up using Mahindra’s NFA for these models, while retaining its own engines. Hence, the next-gen Kushaq and Taigun could come with VW engines and their own top hats. Future EVs could also be spun off Mahindra’s NFA platform which is being designed for both ICE and EV powertrains.

-As for what impact all this could have on the next generation of Skoda’s sedans – Slavia and Virtus – there is still no clarity.


Link: (Skoda in control of VW's product development for India; car based on MQB-A0-IN platform coming)

[Motard_Blr]

In my opinion, "over engineering" is the wrong term for this situation. It should be "wrong engineering". Let me explain.

I won't generalise or stereotype engineering from different countries but I think it's safe to say that the VW approach in India has had a "colonial" mindset with them claiming that their German cars were the best. It's clear from their lack of popularity compared to Hyundai, Kia or even Tata, that Indian consumers don't place as much value in the things that Germans or Europeans do. For example, a German engineered switch might feel great to operate but if most people don't care about that, then why would they pay a premium for that?

Even in 2024 I keep reading foreign, mostly white owned companies (not trying to be racist or any -ist) stating that India is a cost sensitive market. Really?! The Hyundai Creta is one of most premium vehicles and its always in the top 5 in sales. So are some of its competitors. The Indian economy is growing along with our tastes, expectations and incomes. In such a big market if a company isn't interested in catering to its customers' tastes, said company will sink.

Here's an anecdote to drive home my point: German car manufacturers refused to provide cup holders in their cars sold in the USA. Although their cars sold quite well, American luxury cars sold better. The Germans finally got off their high horse and provided cup holders that their customers really wanted. I don't know if their sales improved because of this feature but with it there was one less reason for potential customers to look elsewhere.