[NiInJa]

Not sure if Klaus Zelmer looked it up, but today, overengineering means this



I think this is the exact problem with VW, and it is a shame for them to leave when the Indian car scene is warming up. It's VW's loss really. India is rising above the small car segment and the premium hatch/sub-4m SUV and entry level SUVs is where the game is on.

Homegrown brands like Mahindra and Tata have shown them how it is done in the same segment where they are competing. I really don't see what Mahindra stands to gain from this partnership. They are better off alone than carrying this extra baggage of snobs.

Besides that, I read some funny comments here on how VW cars have to deal with adulterated/bad fuel quality. Seriously? I thought if their cars are 'over-engineered', their injectors and pumps would deal with bad fuel quality! What overengineering is the CEO talking about exactly?



Adding my rant below
------
When we got the Fiat Linea back in 2010, VW was a new company here. A close friend of mine got the VW Vento and we got the Linea. Being bachelors and car buffs back then, we followed each other's car progress over the years.

I still remember the exorbitant service costs that he to bear each year. There were no 'free service' as such. Second, the car was not hassle free as one would expect after paying 15000 Rupees per service, he did get the ABS sensor replaced and later injector issues cropping up. Third, for all the 'premium' price paid, the service quality was comparable if not worse than Maruti or Hyundai. At the end of the day, the workforce was the same, mostly hired from service centers of a different brand. The spares were high cost too. A VW diesel injector costed way more than Fiat multijet diesel injector.

When my wife was in the market to get a small hatchback in 2013, I test drove the VW Polo. The car's 1.2 NA petrol engine was noisy and was a guzzler. The 1.0 TSI was not introduced back then. The interior quality might have been good, but the i20 was offering much better music system and features for the same price. Fit and finish was great no doubt, but did that warrant paying an extra 1.2 lakh rupees plus missing out on creature comforts? For most of us, it did not. The VW Polo did not outsell the first-generation Ford Figo, that is saying something.

Why is this information relevant? Well, it set the tone for initial impressions of a brand which are difficult to change later, and any issues that crop up in later cars only help reinforce that impression.

I would not have considered their cars after 2014, but their recent launches: Slavia, Virtus, Taigun felt good, until they did their usual magic of pulling out rabbits from a hat with AC issues, fuel pump issues etc.

Here is another argument why high cost does not always mean a great car.

VW is expensive because:
1. VW car has better ride quality -> The Renault Duster had better ride quality.
2. VW uses high quality spares -> No use if they fail anyway. (ABS sensors, Injectors, AC)
3. VW are built well -> Tata Tiago is built strong too, costs about 6 lakh rupees.
4. VW has better paint finish -> A market where car ownership period is less than 10 years, this hardly matters.
5. VW is German brand -> Huh !?

[huntrz]

This reminds of a certain ad from a german brand for a home appliance where a bunch of people kind of interview a prospective customer to decide whether the customer's home is worthy of their germen engineered appliance. Looks like this thought really is their guiding philosophy. Have they adjusted the wiper stalks over all these years of over engineering?

This is the exact opposite of customer focussed engineering. Instead of the manufacturer designing their cars to fit and work in our kind of envionment they are expecting customers to fit into their mould. This is where japanese, korean and indian manufacturers are leaving them behind. I so much would like to own a slavia or virtus but I fail to convince myself that they are really capable of providing a trouble free ownership of a primary workhorse.

[Stribog]

It's the DNA of VAG. Just finished 2 books back to back, Op Barbarossa and Kiev 1941 (both by David Stahel) and one of the points he repeatedly makes is that the German Panzers (manufactured by Krupp and later Vomag both managed by Hans Grenwig who post war was very senior in the BMW group) were finely refined machines who had very high manufacturing qualities and worked brilliantly in the dust free, paved roads of Western Europe.

2 weeks into the campaign in Russia and they were falling apart because of these same design issues. That were a positive in France became a drawback in Russia.

Much later in the war you had the over engineered monsters the Tiger and Mk 5 (Panther) the tiger was formidable but it often broke down before it even reached the screening line.

Every quartermaster in every Panzer army or division cursed these machines for how complex they were to maintain and repair.

Meanwhile the finest Tanks of the war the Soviet T34 and KV1 (and later variants) were simplicity in itself, designed for use case (boggy roads, had a lower centre of gravity) and the revolutionary sloped armour. Most importantly they used a lot of common parts not just with each other by with other trucks and APC's. To begin with they could take crazy abuse and then be easily maintained.

Just some interesting historical parallels for the forum

[Satkaj]

I fail to understand
Vento TDI bought in 2010 @ 10+ L was right up there with beautiful built and clever features. At that point Honda city which I had an option and felt highly over priced.

Skoda Superb bought in 2014 was again well priced offering wonderful alternative to high priced German cars but at par with Camry.

Was VW/ Skoda making a loss during this period? No. They were one of the few car companies which survived in India. They couldn’t grow because of their service and because they were unable to resolve many issues to customers satisfaction resulting backlash on all sorts of news and forums.

It was always built/fit/finish which were ahead of time but rest was just about what was available in the market.

He has hit his own pride by making such ridiculous statement. Will they ever be able to be Maruti? Never. You are what you are.

[S1200]

As expected from a European CEO!
They 100% of the times speak with indignity at outside Eye 5.

Very difficult to digest that, why they need to insult customers?

[bikertillidie]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

Now two decades after entering India, Skoda's Global CEO, Klaus Zelmer says that their over-engineered cars launched in India were a mistake committed by the group. Their proposed sub 4-metre SUV that's touted to be introduced early next year is set to change their old perceptions with the over-engineered cars, which according to the CEO were also over-priced. The CEO quips "Competitors are outselling us. There's room for more if we get the sweet spot better. There are certain things which are undebatable. People who buy European cars in India go for quality. The cost reduction potential for us is exactly what we've done with the Sub 4-metre".

Sad to hear this. At this rate VW would merely end up losing their competitive advantage. Seems we have yet another instance of deluded leadership barking up the wrong tree.

Now, if VW could only make a shift from a specific make of piezo electric injectors used on their Tdi diesels (spelt C**t******l), handle issues with their DSG gearbox failures better, ensure easy availability of spares aftermarket and rein in their ASCs, Indian customers would swear by the brand.

They make great cars otherwise...

[melhowl]

I will add my perspective here as a prospective first time private personal car buyer. I am in market for a car. My budget is around Rs 10 lac. My need is not urgent. So i can revise my budget up by saving for a few more months. So, say some 2-3lac rupees more. I don't want to go beyond Rs 13lac OTR.

My first choice is a sedan. I am not much fan of these crossover SUVs. I am not averse to them either. I need my car to have reasonable comfort for fellow passengers and for me it should be fun to drive. However i am not going to compromise on safety ratings and safety features. 5 star and 6 airbags are must to me. I am also not a huge fan of sunroofs either. So they are not must for me.
In sedans i had four choices City, Verna, Virtus and Slavia. I loved the VW/Skoda twins. I really had my heart on virtus and slavia. They had reasonable GC. A good turbo petrol but to my dismay there base model didn't have rear AC vents. This is when there complaints against weak AC in these cars. The next variant up has ExShowroom price greater than > Rs 13.5lacs. This is in contrast with City and Verna where their trim with rear AC vents costs less than Rs 12lac. I really love VW Twins but just for rear AC vents i am not going to spend nearly Rs 3lacs.
So, I am now contemplating to buy a mahindra compact SUV. They are good crossovers and i will save some money too. I am not going for Verna or City. I was willing to spend nearly 2-3lacs more just because of their good safety, build quality and fun to drive nature with reasonable GC.

This is the problem with VW. They actually want to sell just one Trim. Indian Customers do not have such great flexibility of finances. Thats why different car makers offer multiples of trims. So, that each customer can have her own choice of the pick. They need to offer multiple trims. Some essential features like safety and rear AC vents should be in first two trims with very small price gaps between base and it.

[NiInJa]

Originally Posted by Stribog

Just some interesting historical parallels for the forum

This is actually very true in the context of cars as well. Let me elaborate.
I have moved to the U.K. recently and have been studying cars here. European brands like VW, Skoda, Fiat have the best cars for the region as they originated here and have matured over time.

1. It rains and snows a lot in Europe, UK. So rusting and color fading is a big problem here. Even alloy wheels paint scrapes over time. European cars have the best paint quality compared to Hondas and Suzukis and Mazdas here. A 10 year old Audi Q3 will look much better than a 6 year old Toyota RAV4 that has been exposed to elements.

In summers, the temperatures may not be that high, but the UV exposure is considerably high and the light rays 'sting' badly. (One reason why people here have to wear goggles every time the sun is out). It causes plastics to fade over time.

2. Long distance cruising is a norm here: European cars offer firm seats. I drive a Honda Jazz and the car seats are too soft for doing a 800 km drive without multiple breaks. The same applies to the firm ride. On smooth surfaces, a firm ride makes car fun to drive without making occupants too uncomfortable.

3. AC is not designed to be as 'chilly' : We rarely use ACs here, even if we do, the lowest possible setting is not as cool as what we get in India.

4. Roads are usually cleaner and not as muddy as Indian roads are: I did a London to Glasgow drive, half of it was in full rains, yet the car was clean on the outside with not a speck of mud on it. The ABS sensors manufactured as per German standards are probably not exposed to such grime and dust.

All these examples might relate to the issues faced by VW cars recently. Their AC being weak, fuel pumps probably not tested to handle variations. Plastics breaking off or glue coming off (BMW i guess) as these things are never exposed to higher temperatures of India.

[BlueGod]

So many people bashing VW.
My virtus had developed 3 major issues within a year. I had lost faith in the VW brand and was thinking to replace it with GV strong hybrid. I completed test drive and was checking seat comfort. Usually I prefer to rest my right knee on door or cushion near power window. I was trying to see if I can do that. The plastic just started to bend. I was scared for a moment. I thought I had broken the door. But then I realised that it was Maruti’s flexible engineering. Anybody can try it and see, the plastic if pressed slightly will go in. GV that costs 23 lakh as flexible as a scale that we bought in our school days. I quickly got the quote and ran back to my VW car without looking back. Some of us do prefer over engineered cars instead of flexible engineered cars.

Still searching for a worthy replacement for Virtus 1.5. Maybe Honda city hybrid. Will check out this weekend.

[DRIVE_ADDICT]

Comparing Tatas to VW build quality !!!. No wonder why all these brands exit our market.

People who extensively used VW/Skoda/Ford will ONLY understand what they are. You can see repeat customers for these brands. Those who tasted it, comes back. Not those who sit on the fence and just comment 'nah... its bad'

And many are complaining about the current 2.0 offering is inferior, the engines offered here in this gen is nothing less, you are getting that engine for less than 20 Lakhs which is pulling the Audi Q3s/A4s in European market in their low/mid variants.

Since i see people are listing problems and they say its only common with VW/Skoda, i'd like to share some of the common and in-fact fatal issues with no fix from the reliable manufacturers here.

#1. Suspension failure in Scorpio-N, not just one customer but many faced this issue, this can be fatal.
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-...failure-4.html (Owner loses leg after Mahindra Scorpio-N crashes into barrier due to *alleged* suspension failure)

#2. Creta brake failure, not just one of case, it was a common problem. No confirmation on the current gen
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...ll-owners.html (Hyundai Creta: Serious brake failure issue (must-read for all owners))

#3. Alignment/balancing issues in TATA, Steering pulling to the left.
one can find plenty of threads/YT/Insta videos on this. My friend sold his Harrier just in 6 months because of this dreadful issue.

Im not saying anything against these brands, they are good in their own terms, so is VW/Skoda.

Its not just the European/North American manufactures, even Japanese manufacturers failed here.
Toyota always dumps the decade old products and on top of it they charge premium for their product in the name of reliability.

Honda they pulled out the plug of their premium offering (Civic/Accord) and they also told us no plan for expanding, and reducing the City's quality gen over gen. The last best City we had was the Arrow city and the 5th gen has lot of rattle issues as well.
Suzuki also no longer offer us their global product, S-Cross/Vitara

Its not the manufacturers fault, its us and our wonderful govt.

[v1p3r]

This should read "German CEO Blames Poor Indians For Not Understanding Him". What a clown. Der Fuhrer Von Volkswagen should just go back to scamming the EPA instead of talking to the press. Someone tell him the Nazis lost and we aren't untermensch.

Originally Posted by Stribog

It's the DNA of VAG. Just finished 2 books back to back, Op Barbarossa and Kiev 1941 (both by David Stahel) ....
....
Just some interesting historical parallels for the forum

Don't tell Klaus over here or he'll blame the Russians for being really hardy and not accepting German engineered bullets into their bodies as easily as the French and Polish.

Originally Posted by NiInJa

This is actually very true in the context of cars as well. Let me elaborate.
I have moved to the U.K. recently and have been studying cars here. European brands like VW, Skoda, Fiat have the best cars for the region as they originated here and have matured over time.

1. It rains and snows a lot in Europe, UK. So rusting and color fading is a big problem here. Even alloy wheels paint scrapes over time. European cars have the best paint quality compared to Hondas and Suzukis and Mazdas here. A 10 year old Audi Q3 will look much better than a 6 year old Toyota RAV4 that has been exposed to elements.

In summers, the temperatures may not be that high, but the UV exposure is considerably high and the light rays 'sting' badly. (One reason why people here have to wear goggles every time the sun is out). It causes plastics to fade over time.

2. Long distance cruising is a norm here: European cars offer firm seats. I drive a Honda Jazz and the car seats are too soft for doing a 800 km drive without multiple breaks. The same applies to the firm ride. On smooth surfaces, a firm ride makes car fun to drive without making occupants too uncomfortable.

3. AC is not designed to be as 'chilly' : We rarely use ACs here, even if we do, the lowest possible setting is not as cool as what we get in India.

4. Roads are usually cleaner and not as muddy as Indian roads are: I did a London to Glasgow drive, half of it was in full rains, yet the car was clean on the outside with not a speck of mud on it. The ABS sensors manufactured as per German standards are probably not exposed to such grime and dust.

All these examples might relate to the issues faced by VW cars recently. Their AC being weak, fuel pumps probably not tested to handle variations. Plastics breaking off or glue coming off (BMW i guess) as these things are never exposed to higher temperatures of India.

I've lived in the UK for over a decade now, and it barely snows here with the exception of the northern bits. And I've owned Japanese cars that are 20+ years old. What you say about the seats and ACs is empirically correct, but the rest about paint and sensors and UV isn't. BTW I worked with multiple automotive majors, so I have some understanding of the industry.

At the end of the day, Arabs - who are rich beyond belief - buy Toyotas and Nissans habitually, and as a matter of pride. The Arabian Gulf countries have the world's harshest weather, with desert sand everywhere, 90% humidity, 50 degree summers. And yet these cars survive decades of being driven HARD. You won't see a VW or Skoda often though, unless it's some misguided European trying to reclaim his or her national pride.

[Aditya94]

Now would this mean that VW will take the Toyota route? Have an arrangement like Toyota - Maruti Suzuki where they would share models/parts/platforms. It is good if it keeps VW / Skoda in business. However, just like how Toyota holds on dearly to its creme de la creme Fortuner and Camry, it would be great if VW / Skoda holds on to some models like Tiguan / Kodiaq / Superb / Octavia / Jetta?. If not, it is a bad bargain.

I will closely be following the developments as I am seriously considering a Tiguan 9-12 months down the lane. But, If I am not confident enough, I wouldn't even look at VW. Just like I would never trust a Jeep or Citroen; However good their products may be, they don't seem to instil confidence as an owner who wants a fuss-free AS&S in the long haul.

But honestly, all I see is VW making yet another bad decision, just like many they have done. Just like the DSG fiasco, just like dieselgate and subsequently ditching the diesels altogether, just like reducing quality in their VW 2.0 cars thereby killing their USP and just by not having a sub 4m car for the mass-market.

On the contrary, considering that Hyundai is going public, it would be great if they launch international models like Kona (ICE version), Santa Fe, Palisade, Elantra and Sonata. India is sorely missing cars in 20-50L market with good AS&S. Maybe, just like MSIL, Hyundai can have a separate showroom for their premium models.

[harikrishnansp]

Originally Posted by arunphilip

The day when "over-engineered" became a bad word was a sad day for all consumers.

Over engineered and reliable is a good thing for the consumer. Sadly, VAG cars are not part of that bandwagon.

[Cresterk]

Originally Posted by motorworks

Im a little curious to understand what Mahindra gains in this whole deal when they end up with a small or substantial stake in VW india. Mahindra is doing really well themselves, high profits per car, almost all cars have waiting periods etc. And unlike Tata, they have also got their turbo petrol engines right.

Apart from the famed DCT gearbox, what does VW actually bring to the table for Mahindra?

Electric cars and battery technology. Mahindra is lagging behind Tata in that regard and they need a partner if they are going to proceed with their dreams of the born electric vehicle lineup.

[sirius]

Looks like Indians don’t have a say in VW/Skoda India business. For example any common person in India would have suggested if your are building a competitor to creta , first thing need to be matched is dimensions. Kushaq/Taigun doesn’t looks like creta segment inside or outside. It feels a segment below in dimensions but pricier than creta.

Or else they should have built their cars with their own USP without considering the cost. It may not have huge sales. Atleast they will have their own loyal customers and would be an aspirational brand for above middle class which is gradually increasing.