[lone_wanderer01]

Originally Posted by Cresterk

NCR does take up quite a lot of market share. The way entry level mass market cars work is by making them as cheap as possible and ensuring it’s bought by as many people as possible.

Not as much as you think it does. Bangalore has more cars registered than NCR at the moment, and yes, it may be because of scrapping, but the point still stands.

Source:
https://www.livemint.com/news/india/...308093253.html

Even if we consider all of these to be diesel cars, its not as significant of an impact unless you consider a whole state or a cluster of states deciding to ban diesels. Yes, it is a high number of vehicles per capita and per square kilometer, but from a sales point of view, it should not matter to a volume player with access to 28 states and 8 UTs.

Also refer to:
https://data.opencity.in/dataset/del...6-6cd87a872c4c

If you refer to the link above, you can see that the most number of vehicles purchased in one year was around 8-9 lakhs in Delhi, and on average it hovers around 4-5 lakhs per year and this includes Cars, two wheelers ,tractors, autos, buses and everything in between with 2 wheelers contributing to a major chunk of it. IMHO, even if we consider 50% of the cars sold as diesels, it does not make sense for a company to consider sales in NCR to change strategic directions for an entire market like India. Jeep, MG, Citroen etc who can only dream of the market share Maruti has, and others like Tata, Mahindra and Hyundai still sell diesels in India.

[raj4466]

I don't think it's a design flaw that stopped them from upgrading, they misread the market.
Diesel still trumps in compact SUV space. They could have plonked it in Ertiga, Brezza, Ciaz, S Cross and Urban Cruiser.

Apart from two engine warning incidents due to failed glow plugs, the 1.5D in my Ertiga haven't given me any issues and gives me a healthy FE of 18+ kmpl.

[su1978]

Here is the complete story published on Autocar India. Basic reason that i understood was the engine could not be upgraded on BS6 due to basic design flaw in its intake manifold. This is very informative

https://www.autocarindia.com/auto-fe...el-exit-431965

[NiInJa]

Let us break it down...

Maruti Suzuki has one only card in their sleeve which they will not let go at any cost. That is 'reliability'.

Diesel engines, especially the BS6 era ones have become complicated, and re-engineering the head would require a lot of testing before it was released in the market. Now way they were going to launch the engine prematurely which would have issues at customer side and let the word of mouth spread 'Maruti engine is not reliable'. That would cost them heavily and permanently. They tried it with 1.6 Fiat sourced engine too (S-Cross) but let it go after some customers reported problems (yes, cost was also a factor, but they would not mind it if the car had become a hit)

Time has been running out for Maruti Suzuki, once the CAFE norms kick in, they would have to do something about overall emissions, but unlike Tata they have no pure electric cars to offset emissions from ICE cars.

The 1.5 Diesel would work only for a select few cars in SUV segment. Hatchbacks with diesels are not mass market cars that would bring in the numbers. Maruti is very clear about this. Besides, their lightweight petrol versions are just about fine.

The one market where they lost the opportunity big time is the small SUV segment. They simply don't have powerful engine in this category.

To compete with bigger cars like Scorpio, Harrier in the future (thinking of Toyota RAV4 = Suzuki Across) they would need a bigger engine, the 1.5D would be underpowered.

This was a clear case of Maruti Suzuki losing out on all fronts. Despite having human resources (and cash) they did not invest in a diesel engine in 2000s, they are still not ready with an EV, their strong Hybrid system (1.5L) is too much tech and cost for not much gain in power or even fuel economy and are now paying price for it. If India were not a cost conscious market, they would have packed their bags and left already, just like they have done in other markets.

Off topic:

Come to think of it, all manufacturers have some issues due to lack of homegrown tech and localization, be it two or four wheelers. Few of them have managed to come out of it.

Tata: Small 1.2 Petrol engine derived from Fiat's FIRE, lacks refinement and consumes more fuel. Big 2.2L Diesel (they got it from Mercedes), spent a bomb modifying it over the years with inputs from AVL, only to be shelved later. The 1.5 diesel is the only one going for now. They really don't have a powerful petrol engine that can be used in their SUV lineup.

Mahindra: Focused on getting their big diesel engine (the block inherited from Peugeot?) which is working well. But never got a small petrol engine, messed it up with the KUV with their inhouse 1.2L having fuel consumption issues. They did not have a petrol engine of their own at all but they did a master-stoke or sorts by buying Ssangyong. Now they have 2 advanced turbo-petrol engines, and the 1.5 and 2.0 turbocharged diesels and two platforms (XUV300 and Alturas G4) that fit the Indian scene perfectly.

Hero Motocorp: (2wheelers) their first 150+ cc engines have come too late and still are not the best. Compare that to Bajaj, they got their game right with homegrown engines (using expertise of Kawasaki era) and later getting KTM engines. They just launched a 400cc bike priced under 2 Lakh!

[frewper]

Originally Posted by PreludeSH

I don't think it was a design flaw. It was a design choice and not keeping future changes needed for BS6. Any other company would have re-designed it but Maruti didn't want to invest on it. Anyway, what have they really invested in terms of engineering ?

Agreed. Can we extend this thought a little more, I believe the management was not competent enough to take the call early on and take a decision that the engine was supposed to support BS6. Do remember that the government decided to jump from BS4 to BS6. Maybe the new BS6 rules caught Maruti off guard and they did not have a plan B. Hence had to give up the engine.

I have just seen too many Indian companies taking a decision on what can be developed today and delivered sooner, rather than delay slightly and produce something more efficient.

I have never seen Maruti take an industry first step anywhere. Be it Great Quality, Safety or Engine Efficiency.

[Rohitthebest]

Diesel or no diesel - still Maruti Suzuki cars are selling like hot cakes. Look at the top 10 cars sold in India month on month. Yes, they would have done slightly better with Diesel engined cars but I believe their upper management really doesn't care. Why repair when it's not broken mentality. I had an Ertiga ZDi with Fiat sourced MJD 90 BHP engine and it was fantastic to drive it across India.

What if they still had a BS6 Diesel engine and the same was available in Jimny? Would it sky rocket the lacklustre sale that they have right now?

[Sensible_Speed]

Originally Posted by Cresterk

But why even bother spending crores re-engineering it when diesels are facing draconian 10 year bans in NCR. Also it’s way easier to just reduce metal weight in petrol cars leading to even bigger profit margins from reduced material costs. Maruti’s core customers clearly don’t care about reduced performance.

The NCR rule was a bit idiotic. They could've imposed a congestion charge or something. It's not like hairbrained schemes like odd-even really worked out for them, is it?

Reduced performance is not the only outcome of lowering metal weight. It impacts longevity too. Ask the Germans how their lightweight aluminium blocks are working out for them. They thinned out the block to save weight, and then proceeded to give those weakened engines high-compression ratios and direct injection and turbocharging.
Results: Their engines break much earlier than before. Germans were used to using their cars forever. Now, it invariably breaks around the 200,000 km mark. I don't think the Suzuki engines are quite there yet. They don't make enough power to break that fast.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by TusharK

Maruti Suzuki introduced its all-new DDiS 225 diesel engine in 2019, only to be discontinued a year later. When the BS6 emission norms rolled out in 2020, India’s largest carmaker announced that it would phase out its diesel engines and offer a petrol-only line-up going forward.......

Source: Autocar India

Link to Team-BHP News

This reminds me of the DPF/Regeneration issues that troubled the BS6 Thar in the early phase - one reason why I opted for the turbo-petrol version. Also, it seems several manufacturers faced DPF/regeneration issues in the earlier phase of their introduction (around 2015 or so), though the problem disappeared(??) subsequently. Did these manufacturers over come the issue
using updated technology? And Mahindra too seems to be reporting fewer DPF/regeneration issues with the Thar.

Maruti may have chosen to cut their losses rather than getting into the cycle of diminishing returns.

[TORQUEINDUCTION]

I didn't understand how integrated manifold helped to cool the gases faster. About the liquid form, I highly doubt it. Diesel engines have fuel dosing technology in the exhaust stream to increase the temperature. That can be used further to aid DPF regeneration. Would like to know and study more about this engine case.

[Sensible_Speed]

Originally Posted by TORQUEINDUCTION

I didn't understand how integrated manifold helped to cool the gases faster. About the liquid form, I highly doubt it. Diesel engines have fuel doing technology in the exhaust stream to increase the temperature. That can be used further to aid DPF regeneration. Would like to know and study more about this engine case.

So, in diesel cars, you can see these 4 pipes coming out of the cylinder head. This is the exhaust manifold. It is usually separate from the engine block. An integrated manifold means, this exhaust routing is milled into the engine block itself. This becomes a problem because, the engine block has channels for a water jacket machined into its design to cool the engine. This water jacket also covered the exhaust manifold in the Suzuki diesel's case. This led to a cooling of the exhaust gases too.

With the advent of BS6 norms, diesels engines required a finer particulate filter for PM or soot from incomplete combustion of diesel fuel. This soot is captured in a membrane made of some ceramic material or SiC. On the adsorbent surfaces of these materials, the soot particles clump together while exhaust gases flow on through to the catalytic converter for further processing. The problem with this design was, if the gases were overcooled like it happened on the DDiS 225, they would liquefy as diesel burns at a lower temperature than petrol. The whole spent gas mass would now get adsorbed by the filter in the DPF system. DPF systems are cleared by raising the exhaust temperatures in the cylinders themselves. That happens when you drive at higher engine loads. This is called passive regeneration. But, with the filter clogged by the gases themselves, the increased exhaust temperature doesn't have enough heat to burn off the carbon soot completely.

[TORQUEINDUCTION]

Originally Posted by Sensible_Speed

So, in diesel cars, you can see these 4 pipes coming out of the cylinder head. This is the exhaust manifold. It is usually separate from the engine block. An integrated manifold means, this exhaust routing is milled into the engine block itself. This becomes a problem because, the engine block has channels for a water jacket machined into its design to cool the engine. This water jacket also covered the exhaust manifold in the Suzuki diesel's case. This led to a cooling of the exhaust gases too.

Hey, thanks for the explanation. I missed the cooling jacket part, so yes its possible that the temperatures are dropped more in comparison with regular manifold.

[Brumby]

Originally Posted by Sensible_Speed

The problem with this design was, if the gases were overcooled like it happened on the DDiS 225, they would liquefy as diesel burns at a lower temperature than petrol. The whole spent gas mass would now get adsorbed by the filter in the DPF system. DPF systems are cleared by raising the exhaust temperatures in the cylinders themselves. That happens when you drive at higher engine loads. This is called passive regeneration. But, with the filter clogged by the gases themselves, the increased exhaust temperature doesn't have enough heat to burn off the carbon soot completely.

Any amount of cooling with engine jacket cooling water will never liquify the exhaust gases. A fractional amount of water vapour in the exhaust gases may condense if the exhaust gas temperature reduces below
approx. 200°C. This condensation causes formation of sulphuric acid (due to the presence of sulphur oxides in exhaust gases) as I have mentioned in my earlier post.

For diesel engines the exhaust gas temp ranges from about 200°C at idle running to about 480°C at full load.

It is not possible to liquify the exhaust gas with the cooling water temperature at the engine outlet, which is maintained at around 90-95°C for thermal efficiency.

So question of turning the exhaust gases into liquid form does not arise.

Suzuki shelving diesel engines could be more of economical factors rather than technical. There is not much technology or finance required to modify the cylinder head and exhaust manifold for an automobile manufacturing company, specially when people modifying automobile engines for performance enhancements can do it in reasonably well equipped garages.

Suzuki diesel engine was not a technological wonder, neither did it win an engine of the year award. With stricter emission norms and realtime emission monitoring requirements, the present engine would have probably failed at providing performance, fuel economy and reliability.

Cheers

[VwRabbit]

Don’t think diesel ever worked out for MSIL except in the Swift, the 1.3 MJD from Fiat turned out like it was the made with the Swift in mind because the Punto was heavier and the gearbox spoiled it, the engine also had less problems in the Swift compared to the Vista or Punto. Other than the Swift and to an extent the 1.3 MJD in the Ciaz and Brezza none of the other cars in their stable could connect with the diesel mills from Fiat, it all felt lacking in some way or other even the 1.6 diesel really good on the highway but try to pull from a speed breaker in second gear and it will stall, without a remap driveability is an issue and reliability is also not that great from what I have heard, just like many other Japanese automotive companies diesel engines are not their forte, small capacity lightweight petrol engines are where they excel somewhat similar to Hero MotoCorp in that regard so they have decided to perfect it more instead of going behind diesels.