[DRPSREDDY]

Tata motors proudly brought the D8 platform from JLR that Discovery was based on for the next gen SUVs that are now launched as Harrier and Safari.





Both these cars are doing good. But what next? Tata motors had announced that there would be more variations of the platform that spin out a sedan, a coupe or an MPV.




But it seems Tata has lost much focus on more products except to get a 1.5L petrol powertrain and an EV out of the platform. The current and only Fiat derived powertrain 2.0L Kryotech engine is the current sole engine. This engine is clearly unrefined, underpowered and outdated in today's terms. Fiat seemed to have asked a bomb to retune the engine with hike in torque or alternatively asked to choose the 2.2L engine instead which will take the costs off the roof. Fiat (or Stellantis) reportedly stopped working further on diesel engines and are planning to get in Hybrids for next gen SUVs. Tata are clearly caught off guard as they did not invest in their own engines and rather banked on European partner who foot an expensive engineering bills that are not feasible for Tata.



Tata's further plans are only on ALFARC platform on which the ICE Sierra will also be based and the EVs that will be based on Acti.ev and JLR's EMA architecture for the Avinya brand. As of now, no new car seems to be planned that is based on the D8 as it requires a larger, 1.6-2.0L petrol powertrain or Hybrids that that TATAs lack or not interested in developing. They have also haulted the turbocharged variants of the 2.2 varicor engine that just turned reliable with Hexa.

So this seems to be the end of JLR D8 platform.

[shortbread]

Perhaps the answer for future powertrain options come from JLR as well.

Considering the localisation drive for the JLR line up recently announced, which will include assembling the Ingenium engines in India (confirmed by Rory O'Murchu JLR's Product Line Director in his Autocar interview) this year. 5 years ago, this might have been farfetched, but now it makes sense. Mahindra have really raised the bar for powertrains in the segment and Tata could really do with the Ingenium's specs. Perhaps reserve the top state of tune for the JLR's India line up and reserve the lower ones for Tata.

This also resolves the biggest gap in its powertrain line up, Petrol engines. The current sales of Harrier and Safari are diesel only, a fact that's often overlooked when discussing sales volumes.

Ingenium family has a comprehensive line-up of 3 & 4cyl engines:

PETROL - AJ150 & AJ200
Inline 3: 1.5 L
- 260 Nm, 160 Ps

Inline 4: 2.0 L
- 320 Nm, 200 Ps
- 365 Nm, 250 Ps
- 400 Nm, 300 Ps

DIESEL - AJ200D
Inline 4: 2.0 L
- 380 Nm, 163 Ps
- 430 Nm, 180 Ps
- 430 Nm, 200 Ps
- 500 Nm, 240 Ps

The volumes will help JLR's India operations and keep the money flow in-house than paying Fiat for it's archaic units. The Ingenium engines have been around for sometime, and after resolving it's previous teething issues, these are proven units now. Instead of the expensive Aisin or ZF automatics JLRs use, continue with the localised Hyundai autos.

This makes better sense than Tata spend time and resources on it's own separate line up of engines for it's bigger cars.

[DRPSREDDY]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Perhaps the answer for future powertrain options come from JLR as well.

Considering the localisation drive for the JLR line up recently announced, which will include assembling the Ingenium engines in India (confirmed by Rory O'Murchu JLR's Product Line Director in his Autocar interview) this year. Tata could really do with the Ingenium's specs. Perhaps reserve the top state of tune for the JLR's India line up and reserve the lower ones for Tata.

This is not possible as JLR has embedded the Ingenium engine with complicated technology that is very expensive and is difficult for Tata to use it for use in low cost cars. Maybe the high power and torque has warranted expensive alloy and other tech.

Autocar India podcast specifically discussed this issue.

Autocar India Podcast -Engines

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

This is not possible as JLR has embedded the Ingenium engine with complicated technology?

Meaning what exactly?

All ICE engines currently have complicated technology and more so going forward especially as emission norms get stricter. The petrol engines Tata are working on are complicated enough as it is, light weight aluminium block, high pressure Direct Injection, Dual Cam phasing, variable Oil pump, Water cooled variable geometry Turbocharger, Exhaust after treatment etc..etc..

The Ingenium engines are transversely packaged in JLR cars just like Tata, and will mostly have similar mounts as the the JLR PTA platform and Tata's Omega Arc were both derived originally from the Land Rover D8 platform.

Importing these fully built engines will be prohibitively expensive, but if JLR are assembling these in India with increased localisation as they have mentioned, then it's a different ball game altogether. Plus Tata must be already paying a premium for the Fiat engines, while JLR is an in-house subsidiary.

[ergon_9700]

I think the D8 has been future proofed a bit in the form of their acti.ev architecture in which the Harrier.ev (possibly even Safari.ev) is going to be based upon. The D8 was capable of AWD, which Tata had removed for Omega Arc I believe, which is a shame. But good news is they have retained it for acti.ev architecture. Also it has been confirmed Harrier.ev is getting AWD.

Tata also has access to in-house hybrids too if they want to use it as JLR has developed them for their cars, but considering their current stance I am sure they won't use it. But hope they will rethink soon because sales of hybrids are going to be more relative to EVs, while their (EV) sales are also going up slowly as well (as currently there is market slow down).

Moreover if they use Ingenium engines well, they can save on the costs, the 200hp or 180hp tune for diesel sounds good from the 2.0. As for petrol, well they have their own TGDI so yeah there is that. If they are offering another option, they can use the base ingenium 2.0 petrol of the 200hp tune (Same power as XUV700 but 60 NM less IIRC). They can use the mild hybrid tech as well (If JLR are localising it). To meet CAFE as well as economy boost as well performance boost.

[volkman10]

Future Jaguar Land Rover EVs to use platforms from Chinese car brand Chery. As per the agreement, JLR will borrow EV platforms from Chery’s subsidiary Exeed.

Link: (2024 Land Rover Evoque & Discovery Sport to debut new EV-focussed platform)

[DRPSREDDY]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Meaning what exactly?

The Ingenium engines are transversely packaged in JLR cars just like Tata, and will mostly have similar mounts as the the JLR PTA platform and Tata's Omega Arc were both derived originally from the Land Rover D8 platform.

The exact problem is that the cost of development and the technology is expensive. This is as per Hormad Sorabjee in the Autocar India Podcast claim. As per the internal sources, they have tried it and the costs didn't work out.

Originally Posted by shortbread

Plus Tata must be already paying a premium for the Fiat engines, while JLR is an in-house subsidiary.

This is the prime reason they have settled for the Fiat engine and the costs did work out as TATA signed an agreement for 70 thousand engines a year of which they are supplying to MG too. This too is a transverse mounted engine that fits the bay and that is why in-house 2.2L VARICOR engine was discarded. So economics did work out but iterations of the engine are costly a bomb including upgradation to BS6. Also TATA has to foot a huge bill any more modifications including bump in power and alterations in specs and TATA is reluctant to spend upon.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

The exact problem is that the cost of development and the technology is expensive. This is as per Hormad Sorabjee in the Autocar India Podcast claim. As per the internal sources, they have tried it and the costs didn't work out. This is the prime reason they have settled for the Fiat engine

That decision to go for fiat engines happened 5-6 years ago, when powerplants were simpler especially from the competition. Ingenium production had just started in the UK back then. Now the game has moved on. Plus the huge added advantage of assembling the Ingenium engines in India Vis a Vis importing them from the UK previously, localisation will help bring costs lower. The additional volumes will also help JLRs cause especially if they're looking at India for exports in the future. Again there's little point in this debate as all these theories we've come up with, about the Omega arc platform, ingenium engines etc.. are purely hypothetical!

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

Tata motors proudly brought the D8 platform from JLR that Discovery was based on for the next gen SUVs that are now launched as Harrier and Safari.
.

D8 is based on Ford as well as used by Volvo as per internet, JLR rebranded this to PTA later. It's a pretty old platform but perhaps good enough for our market they must have thought.

So D8 is Inherently expensive as they aren't indianized but then Tata is known to cram expensive bits into vehicles of their own platform - like Hexa for instance wherein you lose money from the time of sale to the time of warranty repairs, that is if they managed to convince someone to buy it in the first place.

Once the platform itself is expensive there is little money left for making a good car with it, as can be seen in Mk1 harrier/Safari etc , so you have to spend more money now into it for facelifts, feature additions just to stay relevant and keep the existing numbers. It's a loss making game in the end with little motivation to innovate or invest further.

Just simply making in India won't do any more - they should also consider the most important aspect - Make for India.

[DRPSREDDY]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Plus the huge added advantage of assembling the Ingenium engines in India Vis a Vis importing them from the UK previously, localisation will help bring costs lower. The additional volumes will also help JLRs cause especially if they're looking at India for exports in the future.

This is my exact point too!

Why not Ingenium? As you said, localisation will bring costs down. As it is JLR's Ingenium engines and certain parts are sourced from India and as well as from China. What they need to make here is the engine block and cylinder head else most of things are already available locally.

Let's see how will TATA use the opportunity.

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Just simply making in India won't do any more - they should also consider the most important aspect - Make for India.

Maybe for this reason Tata motors is not much pushing this platform, but rather planning the next car Sierra on ALFARC platform. The 1.5L petrol too might struggle on this platform as it is heavier than Creta, that maybe the approximate weight of all new Sierra.