[sudeepg]

Originally Posted by sh3lby

Toyota is known for not being at the forefront of innovative tech in their cars and sticking to proven things to preserve their hard earned image of reliability, but what's offered in India is just appalling, boring and bland.

....

At the end of all these, I want to add that I'm perfectly aware that the brand is doing great sales and will always find buyers regardless of what they put out. This is just my view as an enthusiast who was expectantly banking on Toyota, perhaps too impatiently. Maybe I shouldn't have titled this as 'complacency' and more as an opinion on their Indian portfolio, but I think this is worth a discussion.

Getting complacent? They were already complacent from the beginning. Just because they made some very good cars and was one of the top manufacturers world wide, all they did in India was they banked on their reliability & brand value and thereby kept increasing prices of their products. They are somewhat the same as Apple.

Keep increasing costs with no real value and innovations.
In India, they have partnered with Maruti to adopt their badge engineered cars.

Need we say more where they are going? I wonder if sooner or later they will end up like Apple since there are many other auto companies that are building EVs and products as well engineered as them, if not more.

[youknowitbetter]

It is extremely sad with the way things are being run by Toyota and Honda (sorry for digressing by including Honda in the mix). Both these Japanese brands have such a stellar product line up complemented by excellent engines, but somehow they just don't have any interest in refreshing their product line up in India. A quick google search shows that both Honda and Hyundai entered India in 1996 and we don't have to spell out the current market market share of these 2 players.

Heck even Suzuki, which also is a Japanese brand is better in safeguarding its market share (relatively) and is always in action by taking steps towards.

Thread raises a valid question. Some can say its complacency or over confidence in their line up or corporate red tapism, things need to shake up for both these organisations. They have technical prowess to deliver and large motherships to support the spend to do so. Not sure how long will they be relevant in the larger scheme of things if they continue on this path.

Hoping Ford's entry (and will depend on pricing their as well since Skoda has just launched Superb with a dissuading price) will result in Toyota relooking at Fortuner.

[Ashwin Morey]

A lot of Toyota bashing in all the replies and rightly so! However almost all replies by members here are focusing on what Toyota is NOT doing right. I am now wondering that if all of us commonly feel so passionately negative about Toyota then how come they are still at the top of their game? This makes me wonder what are they actually doing right to have hordes of people still buying Innova and Fortuner?

Sure reliability is one factor and sure the whole Neta/Gangster vibe is another but between Scorpio-N and Thar the Neta/Gangster vibe is covered well. As for reliability, Tata & Mahindra maybe couple of notches below compared to Toyota but cheaper vehicles need cheaper maintenance and they maybe lower than Toyota but they are not outright ridiculous and the sales numbers prove that people are comfortably living with them despite lesser reliability.

So these reasons alone aren't strong enough for Toyota to maintain such strong hold on the Indian market.

I guess Fortuner never had any real competition and gained more due to competition failing and disappearing rather than it doing anything spectacularly by itself. The only true competition it ever had was Mitsubishi Pajero/Montero and Ford Endeavour both of whom simply disappeared.

As for Innova, I guess it never had a true competitor in the MUV space ever. Sure we have had Hexa, Marazzo and even the Carnival but these were never serious contenders. Their manufacturers had other lucrative eggs in their basket hence these received less love. Whereas with Toyota its MUVs have always been its most prized possession, right from the Qualis to Innova to Crysta and now the Hycross. It's almost as if the Indian user persona for Toyota is a big, fat joint family traveling with half the house!

It would be interesting to hear if anyone else has any other perspectives on what makes them tick so well despite the very obvious complacent behavior from them.

[pgsagar]

Originally Posted by ramnaresh_2000

[*]They did not even care to ask for our contact information [*]Take it or leave it attitude

And yet we queue up to buy their cars. What can I say? I will leave it at that without saying more because my comment won't be relished by people who buy these cars. All I say is, what is it with us Indians that the more someone takes us for granted, the more we run after them? Please don't tell me reliability. Almost all brands are equally reliable these days. This reliability thing is over-stated.

Originally Posted by ramnaresh_2000

People rejected many Toyota cars if I can recall, like Yaris, Etios, Etios Cross, etc.

And yet, if I ever have to buy a Toyota, used Yaris AT is the one I will buy. Why? Because a relatively less successful model has poor resale. Not just Yaris. If I look for a used AT cars, petrol is the only fuel I will buy and I will buy only not-successful models from Toyota and other manufacturers. Like, Yaris, Camry, Corolla, Outlander, CRV, Civic, Accord etc. I wouldn't even look at Innova/Fortuner cars. I will rather buy something like Isuzu, if I have to buy one of this class. Not even Endeavour. I have seen almost Fortuner-like ridiculous used prices they're asking for these.

Originally Posted by ramnaresh_2000

...It is time for mass market to reject these overpriced cars, let netas and gansters buy them...

Toyota has been very lucky that with Innova and Fortuner, they tapped into a segment for which money is no object. Innova. Mostly taxis and govt. purchases. Govt has no budget issue and cabbies purchase is B2B so they recover that cost. Fortuner. The class you mentioned has unlimited budget. And this class only moves around in these cars. They can even afford a custom-built gold-plated Rolls/Bentley/Maybach without so much as a pinch but they can't be seen in those type of cars. Especially politicians. So, as long as we have these three classes of buyers patronizing their cars, Toyota can keep raising prices every 3 months or whatever.

[ferrarirules]

Toyota and its complacence in India is not a story of today. This has been there for years, the products they launched in India except Fortuner and Innova never hit the mark for Indians. Be it Etios twins with their poor interiors and lack of features or be it Yaris with its unrealistic pricing or be it underpowered Corolla diesel or an overpriced Camry hybrid.

It is not so that the current champion products don't have shortcomings or lack of features, the thing that is sailing the boat is lack of competition

Toyota has craved a niche for themselves and outside that niche they are getting beaten hands down

Their Niche products
1. "Innova" brand name became synonymous with any 7 seater car same as Surf for any washing powder. There is no alternative to Innova. The only car that comes close is Kia Carnival. Tata and Mahindra has tried to compete in the segment but it is very difficult to break the brand equity "Innova" carries.
2. "Fortuner" brand name became synonymous with anyone with high stature / so called arrived in life. The only car that gave competition to it was Ford Endeavour but then Ford decided to shut shop in India. Now there is only one competition - Skoda Kodiaq. Tata and Mahindra have craved a space for themselves with Safari and XUV 700 but their price point is much lower and doesn't command the same "so called arrived in life" status

Shared products (Data from Feb-24 Sales)
1. Glanza - Maruti sold 17,517 units of Baleno vs 4581 of Glanza sold. People are not ready to pay for Toyota's brand equity
2. Hyrder - Maruti sold 11002 units of Grand Vitara vs 5601 units of Hyryder sold. Maruti is selling twice the number of a car which is being manufactured at a Toyota plant.
3. Rumion - Maruti sold 15,519 units of Ertiga vs 730 units of Rumion. The MPV king cannot sell the compact MPV even to a 4 digit sales number.

So Toyota doesn't feel that India is a market that they need to invest in. They are happy selling rebadged Suzuki products with their two niche products.

[padmrajravi]

For now, India is a loss making market for Toyota or one that is tough to recuperate investment. This happens because our purchasing power is low and we have manufacturers who can build lower priced cars with acceptable quality (Compromising on other things). For eg, Hyundai/Kia/Suzuki has almost same offerings in India as Toyota global offerings but at lower prices. To compete, they will have to build India specific products bounded to a price by compromising things. Why would they do it when there is already a family friend doing the same thing and is ready to loan it for them ? Innova and Fortuner enjoys monopoly in India only because there is no Korean offering in that space. Hyundai can kill Innova and Fortuner if they want, just that they have no interest in that space.

I haven't found much difference in prices of Toyota products across countries except GCC countries. A Fortuner sells for almost same price in Australia or South Africa. So their products being over priced only in India is not true. World over, Toyota products are expensive compared to local manufacturers, Koreans or other Japanese manufacturers. But in other parts of the world, there are more people who will spend that kind of money for small cars to get the famed Toyota quality. In India the small car market is very price competitive.

[darkchild82]

I don't understand why Toyota doesn't consider the RAV4 or at the cheaper Corolla Cross for India!

[for_cars1]

Originally Posted by sh3lby

...Maybe I shouldn't have titled this as 'complacency' and more as an opinion on their Indian portfolio...

Its not 'complacency' but 'greed' that is driving this behavior.

Just observe the pattern of offerings over the years, the 'value for money' aspect has been consistently going down while the pricing continues to increase to luxury segment levels for what are merely utility vehicles.

Ultimately its our market with herd mentality behavior that is at the root of the issue, they are happily buying by paying a premium for mediocre offerings that are not even subject to standard NCAP crash tests, that are devoid of features as long as the badge looks good.

Any OEM will be tempted to exploit such a market and make hay while the sun shines.

But now its going to get tough for external OEMs with the emergence of local OEMs who are offering competitive products (higher safety, world class design and more features) at value price point.

[THE-U-]

I have a different view. It is not that Toyota India is complacent. If they can make money by selling products that are unsatisfactory from an enthusiast's point of view, it doesn't matter to Toyota. They are trying to make most amount of money with the least amount of work. There is no incentive for Toyota to bring different models given all of the training and other support infrastructure that need to be developed for the numbers they will sell and their current competition in the market.

In my opinion, this is primarily because the tax structure in India is not conducive for selling more expensive vehicles at higher numbers. The middle class in India is growing, but the fiscal policy restricts the affordability of the middle class.

[CEF_Beasts]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

Shared products (Data from Feb-24 Sales)
1. Glanza - Maruti sold 17,517 units of Baleno vs 4581 of Glanza sold. People are not ready to pay for Toyota's brand equity
2. Hyrder - Maruti sold 11002 units of Grand Vitara vs 5601 units of Hyryder sold. Maruti is selling twice the number of a car which is being manufactured at a Toyota plant.
3. Rumion - Maruti sold 15,519 units of Ertiga vs 730 units of Rumion. The MPV king cannot sell the compact MPV even to a 4 digit sales number.

It’s a very well known fact that the manufacturer whose car it is originally will sell in far higher numbers.

Baleno > Glanza
Grand Vitara Mild Hybrid > HyRyder Mild Hybrid
Ertiga > Rumion
HyRyder Strong Hybrid > Grand Vitara Strong Hybrid
Innova HyCross Hybrid > Invicto Hybrid

Just looking at the Grand Vitara sales we can’t conclude that Toyota doesn’t sell any HyRyder’s in comparison, eventhough Toyota manufacturers both the cars in its Bidadi plant.

The HyRyder with Toyota’s 1.5L strong hybrid engine is being sold at a cheaper price and sells more units than what the Grand Vitara Strong Hybrid does.

In case of the mild hybrids it’s the exact opposite, where the 1.5L 4 cyl NA engine is from Maruti Suzuki so it’s available at a cheaper price than the HyRyder Mild Hybrid.

Hybrid sales data can be verified here:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...-analysis.html (Hybrid cars in India | Sales figures & analysis)

They are happy selling rebadged Suzuki products with their two niche products.

I’m sure the two niche products being mentioned are the Innova and Fortuner.

Let’s clear the air. Ford entered India (with the Escort) in 1995 in a joint venture with Mahindra which was before Toyota did in 2000, Mitsubishi was selling the Pajero SFX before Toyota started selling the Fortuner much later in 2009. Hyundai sold its full-sized Terracan in India from 2003-07 and then the Santa-Fe from 2010. The Qualis came after Tata and Mahindra had started selling their Sumos and Boleros respectively.

So it’s not that Toyota started selling cars in the Indian Market with a silver spoon in their mouth.

The Qualis was discontinued in 2004 with a lot of criticism from fans and owners alike and replaced by the Innova, which was not at all well received in the initial years. But once people started buying one and word got around as to how much better it was compared to the Qualis, there was no stopping it.

The Qualis to Innova transition in 2005, made Toyota what it really is today! Toyota could’ve very well milked the Qualis for 6 more years, but they chose otherwise with the Innova.

Was there any competition to the Innova once it started selling well ? Yes, but they were pretty outdated namely the Tavera, Sumo, Scorpio and Bolero in 2005. The Innova brought a fresh breath of air into the BOF people-mover segment back then being the most car-like to drive.

Many many manufacturers tried to take down the Innova in the coming years; Chevrolet with the Tavera (basically a rebadged Isuzu Panther), Tata with the Aria (a massive failure), the Hexa (a brilliant product, killed by TML themselves ), Mahindra with the Xylo (a body roll machine with great space though) and then Marazzo (similar to the Hexa, Mahindra didn’t offer an automatic or a petrol when they had a chance effectively killing it), Renault tried with the Lodgy, Nissan (and Ashok Leyland) tried with the Evalia (Stile). Maruti Suzuki launched the Ertiga, which was successful, only because Toyota moved the Innova’s prices higher, otherwise the Ertiga would’ve never sold like it has. It was like an Innova, with a MS badge and at a cheaper price, which clicked.

Once again the Innova a well-established brand that had become a household brand name was discontinued in 2015, to be replaced by the Innova Crysta.

It was faced with similar criticism like the Qualis, but this time around the ‘Innova’ name plate had generated enough fans that the Crysta didn’t have to struggle at all, dispatching 7000+ units in its first month itself (w/o any unit going to Delhi-NCR).

And why didn’t the Crysta struggle when it was launched in 2016 ? The reason is simple, when the other Manufacturers were busy sleeping in 2005, Toyota was painstakingly building the brand “INNOVA”. Trust is not something that can be gained in a year or two.

The HyCross has no business selling the way it does, but add the name INNOVA in front of it and watch it fly off shelves, because that’s the kind of trust a well-established brand has. And once again it has absolutely no competition, other than the now discontinued Kia Carnival…

Moving a segment higher; Ford sold the Endeavour from 2003-2015, Mitsubishi sold the Pajero SFX from 2002 till 2012, then the Pajero Sport was launched. All these products were pretty outdated when the Fortuner came into the Indian market in 2009 (but was launched in 2004 in International markets) and since it shared its IMV platform with the Hilux and Innova, people were waiting with baited breath to welcome the Fortuner.

Ford was the only manufacturer that had the courage to take on the Fortuner with all its might with the 2015 Endeavour, by now the other Manufacturers had just decided they can’t take on the mighty Fortuner.

The Chevrolet Trailblazer came blazing (w/o guns ie. With no 4WD), the SsangYong Rexton was a half-baked effort by Mahindra and the Alturas G4 (also a rebadged SsangYong was a dud, even discounts didn’t make it move out of showrooms), Hyundai’s Santa-Fe a monocoque was a pretty strong contender but it simply didn’t match up, MG came with the Gloster (the Chinese SAIC’s SUV masquerading as a British one).

Jeep came with the Meridian and Škoda with the Kodiaq, which were monocoque cars in the same price segment, they should’ve sold right ? Škoda’s incompetent service centres and brand Škoda itself is a major letdown eventhough the product is just fantastic and FCA group no need to mention.

Mahindra successfully turned around with the XUV500 followed by back-to-back blockbusters in the form of the Thar, XUV700 and ScorpioN. Tata Motors did with the Tiago. Both were clearly ready to take up the challenge, which many are not ready to take up even now.

And another factor leading to Toyota’s success is/was their Service Centres and cars built on the QDR principles. Well stocked spare parts and inexpensive service, again something which like the brand name ‘Innova’ became synonymous with the name ‘Toyota’ in India. Today their spare parts may be expensive but service costs for a 50 Lakh Fortuner is still < ₹10k. Well why only Fortuner even a LC 300’s service cost is nothing compared to what a Škoda or Volkswagen charges for servicing something like an Octavia, Superb, Tiguan, Jetta or Passat.

It’s very easy to say 2 cars X and Y are niche products, when the competitors didn’t have the courage to take up a challenge when they had all the time and chances, before Toyota entered the market. This gave the confidence to Toyota that they can sell their products at whatever price they want and they’ll still be able to sell a good number of cars since they’ve gained the trust of several people in the country.

And coming to re-badging cars, I would rather join hands with another company if I can extract profit out of it and something that benefits both the companies (hybrid powertrains), rather than just sit back and later on exit the country blaming it on India’s cut-throat competition/market and taxes…

Renault-Nissan did cross-badging, they were decently successful with the Duster and Terrano.

Škoda-Volkswagen did cross-badging, they were quite successful with the Polo, Vento and Rapid.

Mahindra-SsangYong did it with the Rexton / Alturas and are still doing it with the XUV300 (aka a SsangYong Tivoli with a boot-job)

Mahindra-Ford did it in 1995 and the deal fell flat on its face when they re-tried it in 2020.

So please explain to me why can’t Toyota and Maruti-Suzuki sell re-badged cars ?

Would you buy real Toyotas like the Corolla Cross at 30 Lakhs over a XUV700, a RAV4 at 45 Lakhs over a Tucson/XUV700/Tiguan? If I can’t grow in this direction, then as a company I would definitely look at the lower segment market and what better way to attack it than the king Maruti Suzuki ?

At the same time a great product like the Yaris, which would’ve done wonders for Toyota was simply overpriced. Toyota thought they had gained enough trust that they could simply overprice it and yet expect people to buy it like a Fortuner or Innova. It simply bombed, Toyota learnt their lesson (which they didn’t follow like they did with the Innova in 2005 ie. First building trust in a completely new segment is crucial) and joined their hands with Maruti-Suzuki.

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by CEF_Beasts

It’s a very well known fact that the manufacturer whose car it is originally will sell in far higher numbers.

The HyRyder with Toyota’s 1.5L strong hybrid engine is being sold at a cheaper price and sells more units than what the Grand Vitara Strong Hybrid does.

My point was that Toyota brand name doesn't carry brand equity over Maruti except for niche products. Value for money rules in India. Even the hybrid sales numbers were not significantly higher than Maruti

Škoda-Volkswagen did cross-badging, they were quite successful with the Polo, Vento and Rapid.

Mahindra-SsangYong did it with the Rexton / Alturas and are still doing it with the XUV300 (aka a SsangYong Tivoli with a boot-job)

These two are not right examples. Skoda is part of the VW group and VW entrusted Skoda to lead their India strategy. Mahindra bought Ssangyong, it was not a partnership.

Would you buy real Toyotas like the Corolla Cross at 30 Lakhs over a XUV700, a RAV4 at 45 Lakhs over a Tucson/XUV700/Tiguan? If I can’t grow in this direction, then as a company I would definitely look at the lower segment market and what better way to attack it than the king Maruti Suzuki ?

They have 26 years experience in the Indian market. High level of localization opportunity available thanks to their partner Maruti. Why cannot they launch a Rav4 Hybrid at price competitive to Tuscon? Diesel top model Tuscon costs 34.25 lakhs ex-showroom. Also why are they not looking at launching PHEV cars which will be the best bet for India?

Finally, they should look at competitively pricing their cars in non-niche segments. Toyota Hyryder Strong Hybrid top model ex showroom Rs 20.19 lakh vs Hyundai Creta Diesel top model ex showroom Rs 20.15 lakh. Creta comes with a full suit ADAS, much better interior and larger boot.

All this shows that they are not serious about the India as a market.

[Gupts007]

Originally Posted by darkchild82

I don't understand why Toyota doesn't consider the RAV4 or at the cheaper Corolla Cross for India!

Toyota being Toyota they have tasted blood in India. They will not enter into a space where they can't have monopolistic success. With their current offerings, they are able to dictate prices, ignoring customer howling. They are doing extremely well and feel safe with their portfolio as it gives them tonnes of money and they are in total control. I think they think of India as a cash cow and are milking us for all they can.

For this very reason, I totally dislike them here. Overseas they compete like any other car maker and thus are on their toes. Here they are playing us like a fiddle.

[Earthroamer]

Indian market is heavily price sensitive and demands more features at low prices. Indian car market is centred around 15 Lakhs price point.

This is exactly why Toyota is rebadging the suzukis. Suzuki altered it's global market models specifically for India. Toyota with its highly acclaimed QC cannot do that to its models which dilutes the brand image

Add to that, with the 49% GST tied to the length of the car, there's no way toyota is going to launch it's globally acclaimed models like 4runners, RAV4, supras etc. Because if they do, the pricing of the above mentioned cars would be north of 70 Lakhs minimum.At that bracket, Indian market is looking for "premium experience" and would be opting for fancy 3 Germans and their interiors than a "functional" Toyota. The criticism on fortuner is exactly that. The suv/truck robust and functional but at 50 lakhs, market demands more. These taxes are insane and getting out of hand. M340i is retailing at 95 lakhs. That's insane.

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

They have 26 years experience in the Indian market. High level of localization opportunity available thanks to their partner Maruti. Why cannot they launch a Rav4 Hybrid at price competitive to Tuscon? Diesel top model Tuscon costs 34.25 lakhs ex-showroom. Also why are they not looking at launching PHEV cars which will be the best bet for India?

Hyundai sold 150 odd Tucson in February. Why would Toyota take all that pain to localize and bring Rav4 to sell 150 cars per month when they are able to sell 3400 Fortuners at 40-50L ? Isn't the investment better used there ? And Rav4 is pricier than Tucson in all markets. So there is no way they can price it lower than Tucson only in India. We are definitely facing some unfair treatment by not having Toyota global portfolio, but there is no business case for them to bring it in India. There are no volumes. Small cars are where the volumes exist, and Toyota can not beat Hyundai, Suzuki and Tata there with their global small car portfolio. Because their small cars are too expensive to begin with.

Bringing in Hyryder was the right approach in my opinion. Creta is where the market volume exists and that's where they need to compete. Sure, Creta has ADAS for the same price, but it does not have hybrid and the mileage will be 1/3rd of Hyryder in city conditions. So I don't think Hyryder is overpriced compared to Creta.

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by padmrajravi

So I don't think Hyryder is overpriced compared to Creta.

I get your point about not investing in low number products. But disagree with the fact that hyryder is not overpriced. My reasons:

1. Totally bland "Marutish" interiors
2. Dated infotainment and Instrument cluster
3. Lack of active safety system (ADAS)
4. Lack of boot space in hybrid due to battery encroachment
5. GST Benefit - I forgot to mention this in my last post. GST on Hybrid cars is 28% + 15% where as GST on diesel Creta is 28% + 20%, there is straight 5% margin which Toyota has in Hyryder.

As mentioned on forum multiple times, strong hybrids are a 20 year old technology if Toyota still cannot democratize it for Indian mass market, it says a lot about their intentions.