[sh3lby]

When we returned to India from the US in 2013, we left behind our perfectly good Toyota Highlander - a robust, all-terrain vehicle with features such as heated seats, remote start, etc back in 2011. Of course, the developed market of the United States cannot be compared with that of India, but when we returned, our car search began with an inclination to the Toyota brand.

In late 2013, we purchased our first Indian Toyota - a fine-looking Innova (2.4 V variant) in Grey. The Fortuner was out of budget at the time and the Innova suited our needs perfectly well - with perhaps the only 'complaint' being that the wheels were too small and that too an aesthetic one.

Fast forward 4 years of being well served by the Innova and we were in the market for a new car - preferably a Toyota - and brought home a silver Innova Crysta 2.8 Z, which was definitely an upgrade from the reliable yet barebones previous gen. Things like Apple Carplay were missing but we let it slide - it didn't really matter, especially when the rest of the car is so good - I think they even stopped the sale of the 2.8 Z since it cannibalized on the Fortuner's sales. This time around too, the Fortuner slipped just out of reach.

Come 2024, and we were fed up of the government declaring arbitrary bans on the plying of diesel vehicles, rendering our main ride useless for weeks at a time - and the absurd 10 year rule meant that with 3 legal years in NCR left, we decided it was time for a true upgrade. Keep in mind my family was a Fortuner aficionado for its resemblance to our old Highlander.

Ever since the Innova Hycross, I've been scrounging the net for information about when the next gen Fortuner will be launched, but to no avail. It's been 8 years and the car has remained the same while getting bloated in its pricing. Our primary criterion was no diesel, and the new member had to be an upgrade. The current Fortuner was neither (the Petrol variant's mileage is hilarious, don't @ me).

The current gen Toyota fortuner has been on sale since early 2016 - and though minor facelifts and updates have been brought in, it has remained largely the same since launch. While we were in the market for a true upgrade, it was appalling to see what the Fortuner offered for 50+ Lakhs OTR. Apart from the offroad capabilty - worse ride quality than the innova, an interior that felt old and outdated even compared to the crysta, and a notable lack of creature comforts.

No updates, and Toyota even went as far as removing the JBL sound system on the Legender out of the blue last year (because why not?). Just disrespect and milking the popularity.

Enough of a rant about the Fortuner atleast, but everything apart from the Hycross too are simply badge-engineerd, Maruti Suzuki products enjoying the 'famed Toyota robustness' without the Toyota input. The Glanza, Hryder, Rumion and even the latest Taisor.

Toyota is known for not being at the forefront of innovative tech in their cars and sticking to proven things to preserve their hard earned image of reliability, but what's offered in India is just appalling, boring and bland.

Something I do appreciate them for is bringing the Hilux to India, but that again is a niche market and I won't comment much there. I'm a fan of those robust, unkillable vehicles but won't be owning one.

At the end of all these, I want to add that I'm perfectly aware that the brand is doing great sales and will always find buyers regardless of what they put out. This is just my view as an enthusiast who was expectantly banking on Toyota, perhaps too impatiently. Maybe I shouldn't have titled this as 'complacency' and more as an opinion on their Indian portfolio, but I think this is worth a discussion.

[manofinfinity]

Toyota offers Camry, Velfire, Hilux, Fortuner, Innova and LC in India out of which 80 per cent or more sales come from just Innova and Fortuner, Toyota offers great products like Yaris, Hiace van, Corolla and Sequoia,4 Runner, they even could have launched the new generation corolla, I miss corolla so much and it could easily be a success if pricing is right, many Toyota products will do great if introduced here like the Hiace,4 runners and sequoia but I don’t understand what’s stopping them to even bring them as a ckd.
If I am not wrong their alliance with Suzuki is just for the smaller segment of cars like hatchbacks and crossovers, but what's stopping them from bringing the rest of thier product line?
Indian Market is very price-sensitive and value-oriented, maybe Toyota just couldn't bring their other products at the price point where it can make sense and do good numbers.

[Mortis]

Toyota decided that in India, they are a premium mass market brand yet for some unknown reason they decided not to get any of their premium hatchbacks and crossovers down and try to localise them in order to sell them at a palatable price. They are very complacent and satisfied with their current sales and market share when they could be much better off, especially in a market like India which is large and will take time to transition to fully electric where they are weak.

[anjan_c2007]

They have never been very serious about the Indian market since Day One. The Qualis and Innova (and its later avatars) were/ are superb and both sold due to their very own USP's and inherent merits. Not much marketing efforts were either put in or were required for these two. It's much like a meritorious student who leads the pack without any coaching. The Fortuner has joined their Qualis-Innova club, again with its own inherent merits.

Toyota had great cars (Etios and Etios Liva) that were not accepted by our markets. Even the Yaris that was much advertised failed to take off. Now apart from the Innova class and the Fortuner they are doing badge engineering with selected Maruti models. Some are doing well though.

But the initial hype prior to the launch of the Qualis when other carmakers were warned by the media about the "bullet proof reliability of Toyotas that could send some of them packing", it remained only a hype as the passage of time proved. In fact, Toyotas sell worldwide for their bullet proof reliability. But despite this merit, Indian customers gave a very damp reception to some of the Toyota cars that were taken off from TKML portfolio prematurely. Toyota did nothing at all to prop up sales for these low volume selling cars. There were no marketing efforts. We are not sure whether TKML has any marketing wing too and if so, is it dormant ?

[CentreOfGravity]

The fact that Toyota have a nice global portfolio but refuse to bring some models to India is what bugs me. In recent times, the Innova HyCross is the only car which caught my attention. The Hilux is a decent pick-up truck, but given its price and niche positioning, it's not very relevant.

I don't have a problem with Toyota rebadging Maruti cars but when close to 40% of their Indian portfolio contains rebadged Marutis (counting the Hyryder as a Maruti - IIRC it's based on a Maruti platform and most of its parts are from the Maruti parts bin), it's something Toyota should think about. Out of the six true Toyotas, the Land Cruiser and Vellfire operate in the luxury segment and are therefore not as relevant, the Fortuner and Hilux are overpriced, the Crysta is mostly for fleet operators, and that leaves us with the HyCross, which is the only "good Toyota". Bring the RAV4, Corolla Cross, (wishful thinking: a few CBUs of the new Camry, Corolla and Supra ), and the enthusiasts will be a bunch of happy people! Remember, if the enthusiasts are happy, your brand image is happy .

I know I'm asking too much and these would be low volume products, but if Toyota wants to be looked up at as 'aspirational', they have to bring atleast some of these models. Today Japanese cars are considered boring. I don't think Honda is going to do anything to turn that perception around anytime soon (I've lost hope); if anyone's doing it, it's you Toyota.

A relevant link: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/inter...io-toyoda.html (Fear Toyota will go back to being an ordinary company, says Akio Toyoda)

In Akio Toyoda's words: Let's make Toyota fun again!

[TorqueIndia]

Thanks for the thread!
I'm trying to understand this Fortuner pricing for a very long time.
IIRC Toyota FORTUNER is the most expensive locally produced car in India, if we filter out other CKD, CBU operations.

Fortuner diesel is priced at 36 to 51.5L ex.showroom in India, translating into the on-road prices of upto 64L for the top variant.

Meanwhile a similarly built Mahindra Scorpio may be with more features is priced between 14.50 to a max 24.5L ex.shworoom.

Why on earth shall we pay double the cash of a Scorpio for a Fortuner when both vehicles are similarly specced?

IMHO for the pricing they like to operate and for the brand value of FORTUNER , I request Toyota India to sell the new LC250 as next generation fortuner in India, that would do some justice to the misinformed rich customers in India.

[diwakarmuthu]

Toyota has never invested in its product portfolio for India. They continously leverage their Asian (Primarily Indonesia / Thailand) market portfolio and look for products that they can milk out in India. In the ever evolving tech based cars, Toyota are the ones to offer the mechanical experience for the drivers, which keeps me excited as a petrolhead.

To fill the gaps in portfolio they have happlily entered the rebadging world and it brings in some numbers to keep them satisfied commercially.

There is an opportunity for vehicles like RAV4, Highlander, Corolla Cross as they can sit nicely in between medium to premium segment. They need to localise the manufacturing part to keep the costs competitive.

The Toyota India wishlist is huge, but then 80% of the sales are driven by Innova, Fortuner and Etios while Camry, Corolla, Velfire and LC are CKDs that come with a fat price tag

[jeetumg27]

The No.1 goal for any company, more so for Corporates answerable to shareholders, is Profits. Toyota is the epitome of “slow to build, quick to destroy”. Their research, feedback mechanisms and quality control is unparalleled, to the point of being obsessive. And this trait runs down to the shop floor engineer who listens to the customer with patience and tries to resolve the minutest issue. I can say this, having experienced it personally.

From the Etios and Liva debacle, Toyota has learnt that the way to profitability is only in the top-end of the market. For the lower end they did a smart strategic move with Suzuki. I think the shared Japanese ethos worked well here, because Suzuki had a long list of failed partnerships, the biggest of them all with VW.

Toyota knows it can sell more than it can produce of any of their current portfolio. Thus, they shall milk every model to the maximum. In fact, I would say they have been over-active for the Innova, axing and updating models even when not needed - IMHO this could be because of the vehicle being bought too frequently by taxi operators, which may not go down well with private buyers.

[Shreyxas]

Cars like the Fortuner, with the configuration of being 4.7m+ paired to a 2.8l engine while the competition milks the power out of a 2.0l attracts heavy taxes, which adds to its hefty cost. That being said, Toyota is at fault here as well, taking the customers for granted. Reliability and power is okay, but when someone spends 55l+ on a car he expects to be given the basic features available in that price range. I believe the customers who bought the car between 2017-2021(myself included) were given absolute bearbones of a car. No apple car play, no digital speedometer etc, features which were available in a 10 lakh rupee car around the same time. I hope the series of complaints from customers will influence them while launching the next generation fortuner.

[ramnaresh_2000]

Recently visited Toyota Showroom in our hometown, my experience can be summarized as extremely bad.

• The SA was assigned within 5 minutes of reaching the showroom
• The SA had zero knowledge on the variants and was unable to explain clearly (we wanted Crysta Diesel)
• His supervisor was roaming around the SA and was giving him instructions, yet he was struggling
• The SA is not willing to share the price list?
• His reasoning is prices are increasing every 3 months and waiting period is 6-8 months, customers are demanding for old price
• They did not even care to ask for our contact information
• Take it or leave it attitude
• The price list states 80k for accessories for each variant? Are they on drugs? SA has no list of the accessories, only response was these are genuine accessories.

The reason why I am writing my showroom experience here is because, it is very much similar to Toyota management behavior. They know they have very good market grasp, they established themselves as low maintenance and reliable car makers. Their waiting period for each model is nothing less than 6-8 months and few models even years. They know Indians are suckers for reliability and resale value, and their cars have the most resale value ever. The Fortuner has this "Neta" tag or "Big Shot" tag, and Toyota knows that these people have loads of money.

2017 base model Crysta BS4 variants are being quoted 22 lakhs here, top end is 29 lakhs. The new base variant is costing 25 lakhs (if I remove all non-mandarory items like teflon coating, accessories, extended warranty etc). This makes zero sense to me. Yet my father is adamant to go with a Crysta only, even after such bitter experience. We are reaching out to out station dealers just to get a price list copy

Summing up all this experience, Toyota is not lazy, they just don't have any reasons to update their models here or bring newer models to India. They can still make fat profits with this attitude until people stop boasting these overpriced and outdated cars.

People rejected many Toyota cars if I can recall, like Yaris, Etios, Etios Cross, etc. It is time for mass market to reject these overpriced cars, let netas and gansters buy them, once the stigma gets them they will fail, just like KTM or Ntorq which got chapri stigma (which again I know will never happen anytime soon, until next generation maybe).

[BrakHorseBarhat]

Originally Posted by sh3lby

The current gen Toyota fortuner has been on sale since early 2016 - and though minor facelifts and updates have been brought in, it has remained largely the same since launch. While we were in the market for a true upgrade, it was appalling to see what the Fortuner offered for 50+ Lakhs OTR. Apart from the offroad capabilty - worse ride quality than the Innova, an interior that felt old and outdated even compared to the crysta, and a notable lack of creature comforts.

Fortuner is similar to the iPhone in the Indian Automotive industry but gets even fewer upgrades than iPhones do.

The only thing that the facelifts lift is the price for no apparent reason.

[sh3lby]

Originally Posted by CentreOfGravity

The fact that Toyota have a nice global portfolio but refuse to bring some models to India is what bugs me. In recent times, the Innova HyCross is the only car which caught my attention. The Hilux is a decent pick-up truck, but given its price and niche positioning, it's not very relevant.

Yes, your post is exactly what I had in mind while creating this thread. If I could, I would incorporate it into the main post. All of your points are true. With the right strategy, I feel Toyota could have a much bigger market share, with more offerings for everyone. But they're content it seems. Honda killed the accord, the best Japanese offering in a while - we can only look to Toyota to see if they can do something.

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

Thanks for the thread! I'm trying to understand this Fortuner pricing for a very long time.
IIRC Toyota FORTUNER is the most expensive locally produced car in India, if we filter out other CKD, CBU operations.

True, what you said. Although LC250 as new gen Fortuner? That won't happen in this universe. What I do wish for is a local built Sequioa. More realistic but won't happen either.

Originally Posted by jeetumg27

Toyota knows it can sell more than it can produce of any of their current portfolio. Thus, they shall milk every model to the maximum. In fact, I would say they have been over-active for the Innova, axing and updating models even when not needed - IMHO this could be because of the vehicle being bought too frequently by taxi operators, which may not go down well with private buyers.

Well I'm of the view if it ain't broke don't fix it - but I think the current Flagship Fortuner most definitely is, for the atrocious price.

Originally Posted by ramnaresh_2000

Recently visited Toyota Showroom in our hometown, my experience can be summarized as extremely bad.

Sorry to hear about your poor experience. 80K for accessories? I got them for a very discounted price for my Audi. That price is just exorbitant. Plus, 26L is what I paid for my top-end Crysta back in 2017 - can't believe it's more expensive now. Milking the hell out of it, they are.

"Summing up all this experience, Toyota is not lazy, they just don't have any reasons to update their models here or bring newer models to India. They can still make fat profits with this attitude until people stop boasting these overpriced and outdated cars. "
Well I think this is part of the problem - is this not complacency?

Also we know why the Fortuner is still so well-received, because of a certain demographic as you described. I'm sure there are true offroad geeks as well but they are perhaps in the minority (and would probably go for the Hilux then).

It's honestly disappointing to see a brand which had my family's appreciation locked in taking stuff for granted. If we could get even a few US like models, people would realize what they're actually getting compared to their price.

Mod Note: Please quote ONLY the relevant bits of a post. Quoting a full, long post inconveniences our mobile readers.

[Amrit@wheels]

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

Fortuner diesel is priced at 36 to 51.5L ex.showroom in India, translating into the on-road prices of upto 64L for the top variant.

Meanwhile a similarly built Mahindra Scorpio may be with more features is priced between 14.50 to a max 24.5L ex.shworoom.

Why on earth shall we pay double the cash of a Scorpio for a Fortuner when both vehicles are similarly specced?

This is exactly my thought. Recently, a friend's father retired from a high-level government post. He had the 'dream' of buying a Fortuner but it was too expensive. It would have taken up a good chunk of the retirement corpus and everyone suggested against it. I convinced him to take a TD of the Scorpio N 4x4 and within 30 minutes, he booked the car. The Mahindra may not have the absolute bullet-proof reliability of the Toyota but it is certainly a much better product over at a much lower price.

[Sidban85]

I am starting to get calls with discounts on Fortuner, so maybe things are changing.
If Ford could come back and launch their portfolio, it would be even more interesting.

[NetfreakBombay]

India is a tough market for Toyota. Toyota Kirloskar declared yearly loss in quite a few years. With cost cutting and price increase; things have improved. E.g. : ~1400 cr profit in most recent filing.

Since 90s, Toyota has invested around ~20k cr in India. This includes most recent 3k for Bidadi plant. It has not earned this amount back yet.

With this background, most probable outcome is going to be allocation to manufacturing capacity since backlog is already 1 yr+.

What it potentially consider is, selling more things as accessory to bring down cost. This would reduce overall tax from ~50% to ~20 or 30% on things like nicer speakers / head units / leather.