[CARDEEP]

The Territory is more in the range of Jeep Compass/ MG Hector Petrol variants than Endeavour/ Fortuner class.

Again it's apple to oranges comparison of the body frame & engine class. I would rather restrict the Territory to 25 on-road Lakhs bracket & Endeavour (bi-Turbo) / Fortuner Legender to to 50 lakhs brackets.

I sincerely hope they re-establish themselves in India for much longer stint than now. But the current gen Americans lack patience their forefathers had & it all boils down to what the board thinks on the short term profitability.

[RunGaDa]

Originally Posted by samarthnarayan

I just hope Ford also includes a sub-compact SUV (Bring back Ecosport) for the 10-15L market segment, where it will seriously rival Nexon.

In that terms Ford Escape (US variant) will be perfect upgrade. There’s no need to beat the same horse of Ecosport, which frankly they stretched a bit. Ford Escape will be a good upgrade for all Ecosport owners. Anything lower than Endeavour is good. Hope they are back.

[samarthnarayan]

Originally Posted by Mustang111

I do agree that Ford should have compact SUVs, however they may no be able sell it at with an on road price below 20 lakhs. Even if they re introduce the Ecosport, it will be not be less than Rs 20 lakh on road as on date. Anything smaller may meet the same fate of the Figo as it's not the strength or expertise of Ford traditionally.

Hmmm, interesting point by you regarding pricing!

My hunch on this:

As I have no data proof, but just some anecdotal reasoning:

The Ecosport in 2021 was generally ranging between 9 to 14-15L on-road, varying tax rates across cities, and note worthy was their top model that was a Sport mode (Basically The 1.5L with Turbo).

I think Ford has to cut down on the engine options, and bring their sub-compact and compact SUV's on the same motor, for production efficiency and to keep costs down.

Example:

Use the 1.5L engine (with Turbo variant option), that was in the Ecosport, also in the Patent-Applied Compact SUV meant to rival the Creta, Seltos, and in the Rumored MPV, based on the same platform as the Compact SUV.

That will make Ecosport the sportier and more powerful option, for enthusiasts, as it will be a smaller car with a bigger engine, and the new Compact SUV will be for people wanting a bigger-spacious car (like Creta, Seltos), and the MPV for those with 3-row seats or a big Boot requirement (Caren, XL6).

Lastly, Ford in my opinion, doesn't need to over think this. It just needs to calibrate against two aspects:

One: Tata Nexon Pricing:
The Nexon is the benchmark in the segment. No other car whether Mahindra XUV300, Hyundai Venue, Kia Sonet, Maruti Suzuki Brezza + Fronx, Renault Kiger, Nissan Magnite, Toyota Taisor, etc can compete with the Ecosport on Build Quality, Engineering and Performance.

So they need to keep the Ecosport around the Nexon pricing, and please note, the Nexon Top Models are upto 17-18L and giving sluggish AMT gearboxes. The Ecosport is at a totally different level with its Torque Convertor automatic, which came with a 1.5L engine.

Ford also must keep in mind, that the sub-compact SUV segment, is an urban commuter segment, which is fast adopting the automatic transmission, for the bumper-to-bumper city traffic. And hence aggressive pricing on the automatic will do them a world of good.

Two: Mahindra X3O
The new kid on the block, which will be soon launched, is the Mahindra X3O, and the one interesting aspect is that Mahindra is going to offer a Torque Convertor based automatic option in its top/higher models of the X3O.

This will be hopefully a big improvement on its standard (and sluggish) AMT option. And it will give the enthusiasts their first option of a good transmission in a sub-compact. And hence, Ford has to factor the pricing of the X3O as well, for their sub-compact if ever launched.

Lastly, In an ideal world, I would have actually wished that Ford took the Ecosport platform, and made a bigger car with a boot (instead of the spare wheel), which would have made that model around 4.3m in length and around the size of the Creta, Seltos.

That would have been the perfect option in my view. But of course, that is all irrelevant now, as Ford has clearly gone for a new platform and design, as filed for patent.

So I am not very hopeful that Ford will relaunch the Ecosport, but I am just wishing they do, and price it right, as I think its a winner and will have no competitor (so far for enthusiasts) in the sub-compact segment.

[samarthnarayan]

Originally Posted by RunGaDa

In that terms Ford Escape (US variant) will be perfect upgrade. There’s no need to beat the same horse of Ecosport, which frankly they stretched a bit. Ford Escape will be a good upgrade for all Ecosport owners. Anything lower than Endeavour is good. Hope they are back.

I think there is miles of space between the Ecosport (10-15L) and the Endeavour (40-50L), to be honest.

Can fit in 3-4 segment vehicles for sure.

On a serious note, My point was limited to that Ford should not ignore the 10-15L segment, it is going to grow like mad in India over the next 5-10 years.

And Tata Nexon has no competition, that's why Mahindra is launching the X30 to fill the void.

I just use the Ecosport term to identify this 10-15L segment. As it was in this segment, when it was selling.

[ajitmoses]

According to Autocar, Ford Everest will be the only ICE offering from Ford for India. Every other car that they bring in or build will be EV only.

[samarthnarayan]

Originally Posted by ajitmoses

According to Autocar, Ford Everest will be the only ICE offering from Ford for India. Every other car that they bring in or build will be EV only.

Yes correct, I saw the podcast too.

And it was always the default play for Ford to return to India, with the Endeavour as the Everest CBU, with the Fortuner being so over priced, that Ford can actually afford to import the Endeavour, pay the duty, and still be cheaper than the Fortunner.

So realistically yes the Endeavour in CBU will be the first offering, maybe in the 2024 Festive season itself, while Ford preps it's Chennai plant for production and have locally produced cars by 2025-26.

As the podcast mentioned that Ford is working on a new low cost EV platform. And that's what it wants to bet on for the future.

I guess, rest is all hope and wishful thinking that once Ford is here, it might want to expand on its ICE lineup. Otherwise, I just don't see Ford doing well in terms of numbers, and will be like MG is currently in India.

Anyways, just hope they announce their return ASAP. It will add a lot to the consumer confidence.

[Asoon]

India is a competitive market, no dumping cheap will not work (Chevrolet, Nissan, Renault, Citroen), So the product needs to be built ground up as per Indian needs. Moreover this segment is crowded with good products (XUV700, Hector, Safari, Harrier), all have good road presence, great engine options and are feature loaded. Ford need to act clever here, they need a strong positioning for this else it will burn its hands again and end up like Compass (decent offering no VFM) or C3 Aircross (no offerings).

At present even after evaluating specs of global ford territory, I am unable to figure out the right to win for this product.

[gck_tourer]

Originally Posted by samarthnarayan

.

But this comparison review between the Ford Everest and Territory (in Philipines) is worth a watch:

Youtube video: Ford Everest vs Territory

I fail to understand why do small countries like Indonesia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Thailand etc get better built and equipped cars from manufacturers like Honda, Ford, Toyota, etc but not India. The car sales in all these countries put together wouldn't be equal to car sales in India. Why such apathy towards India. Ford chose to exit India but not these countries

[volkman10]

As per the report from ACI:

-Endevour/ Everest likely to come as CBU and still be competitive over the segment leader Toyota Fortuner.

- CKD or local assembly for the same is possible as being evaluated through the business case.

- No ICE vehicles from FORD other than Everest/ Ranger and Ev's for India

- The Chennai plant will cater to EVs and exports in the long run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXhf...l=AutocarIndia

[Guna]

Originally Posted by gck_tourer

I fail to understand why do small countries like Indonesia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Thailand etc get better built and equipped cars from manufacturers like Honda, Ford, Toyota, etc but not India. The car sales in all these countries put together wouldn't be equal to car sales in India. Why such apathy towards India. Ford chose to exit India but not these countries

Something to do with our government policy to protect the local industry. Unless a car/model is manufactured/assembled here, it attracts high import duties which makes it not viable to sell here. All these other countries, including Pakistan are free markets.

[samarthnarayan]

Originally Posted by gck_tourer

I fail to understand why do small countries like Indonesia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Thailand etc get better built and equipped cars from manufacturers like Honda, Ford, Toyota, etc but not India. The car sales in all these countries put together wouldn't be equal to car sales in India. Why such apathy towards India. Ford chose to exit India but not these countries

Very good and interesting question, and I guess the answer is from two perspectives:

1) Small Countries - Economy of Scale: The Vendor Argument

A vendor can argue that in case of small countries, it is not viable for them to setup a factory for such a small economy, and thereby they would only be able to provide the goods from a regional production hub. In which case, the Govts of these countries also realise that they have no option but to lower the import tarrifs if they want those goods to be sold in their markets.

So, in this case Ford and other car manufacturers get free or lower tariffs export access to small countries like you named above.

However, in the case of India, this argument does not hold. Which brings us to the second perspective:

2) India - The High Volumes, Low Margins Game

Indian economy is largely designed to be played around the "High Volumes - Low Margins game" because of our huge population. Even in Telecom, it is called "ARPU" (Average Return Per User), which in India is the lowest in the world. That means you make less money from one user, but more money overall, because the number of users is higher. This also has to do with the fact that the level of our per capita income is on the lower side.

The same logic applies to the car industry.

Manufacturers like Maruti, Tata, Mahindra, Hyundai, Kia etc. are playing this game. And hence price their products with the objective of making large sales, they compromise on quality and price their cars very aggressively.

The only exception to this rule, and who is a big success, is Toyota in India, which has no competition to its 2 top products, Innova and Fortunner. So they are overpriced.

Rest all the car manufacturers like you mentioned, Ford for example, they tried playing this game of pricing aggressively, but they just cannot match the cheapest manufacturers in the market (namely Maruti etc),

Also because when you make good cars (engineering components and build quality is what makes the car expensive) and if you don't make your operations super efficient, then profits take a hit. This is what happened in Fords case, they overspent on their India operations, which put them in a loss.

Now, if Ford and Honda etc, should be devising their India strategy with the view of capturing the niche 2-3% of the market, of people who are enthusiasts and want to pay for the quality of the car, and have to be happy in playing that role.

They should not try and be a Maruti or a Hyundai etc. And have appropriate operations strategy to keep the business profitable.

Ofcourse, easier said than done, because the Management at these companies, especially the India managers are trained to be Sales driven and not Quality or Niche driven.

Not easy, But it can be done.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by gck_tourer

I fail to understand why do small countries like Indonesia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Thailand etc get better built and equipped cars from manufacturers like Honda, Ford, Toyota, etc but not India. The car sales in all these countries put together wouldn't be equal to car sales in India. Why such apathy towards India.

Read somewhere that these markets have greater sales for mid range vehicles, while we have sheer sales volume it is mostly for much cheaper cars of which Maruti is king. Also we suffer from the 'big market' problem too. Like USA or China our cars are also more market targetted and not just plucked from a global lineup. So we may get less choice of cars, but what we get are vast variant range, powertrain choices and parts support for what is sold here. Though it is changing, for example the City and Innova have more sales in India, but since they have history in Thailand and Indonesia respectfully, they get first dibs.

Originally Posted by Guna

Something to do with our government policy to protect the local industry. Unless a car/model is manufactured/assembled here, it attracts high import duties which makes it not viable to sell here. All these other countries, including Pakistan are free markets.

Not really. Pakistan and Philippines are comparatively free, but Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand do have restrictions. Just that instead of Maruti, Tata and Mahindra they have Toyota, Honda and Isuzu with history stretching to 1970s, 80s when we were busy indegenising Ambassadors and Padminis. So it will seem that they get better models.

[Astargea]

Originally Posted by DicKy

Read somewhere that these markets have greater sales for mid range vehicles, while we have sheer sales volume it is mostly for much cheaper cars of which Maruti is king. Also we suffer from the 'big market' problem too. Like USA or China our cars are also more market targetted and not just plucked from a global lineup. So we may get less choice of cars, but what we get are vast variant range, powertrain choices and parts support for what is sold here. Though it is changing, for example the City and Innova have more sales in India, but since they have history in Thailand and Indonesia respectfully, they get first dibs.



Not really. Pakistan and Philippines are comparatively free, but Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand do have restrictions. Just that instead of Maruti, Tata and Mahindra they have Toyota, Honda and Isuzu with history stretching to 1970s, 80s when we were busy indegenising Ambassadors and Padminis. So it will seem that they get better models.

As an Indonesian i can vouch for this. Around 90-93% of the cars sold here are locally assembled. Although there's no explicit laws but I believe imports are discouraged by undisclosed quotas.

The difference with India is, the imports in Indonesia are actually attainable whereas imported cars in India are limited to thick margin cars. This might be due to the expensive homologation and adjustment costs for India (such as adjusting to BS6, 80 km/h and 100 km/h speed limit warning, etc). Hence most manufacturers in India simply refuses to import any CBU cars.

For example, in Indonesia, the City, Civic, Accord and CR-V came imported from Thailand. Honda India didn't bother with the latter three either as CBU or CKD.

Then Suzuki Indonesia imported the S-Presso, Ignis, Baleno, GV, all the way to Jimny, but sales of these cars combined amounted less than 1,000 units monthly because they're not sales champions unlike Ertiga/XL7 despite having very competitive pricing.