[fiat_tarun]

Originally Posted by Fastdriver

Two wrongs don't make a right or should I say many wrongs. ...

There is no right and wrong in this. It is a business and people running the business will 'lobby' to protect their businesses. Maruti's strength is light weight, affordable fuel efficient vehicles and any policy that threatens this aspect of their business will be opposed.

Similarly Tata Motors decided on BEV's based on the GOI direction at the time and they will defend any change to that policy. Please remember Tata doesn't have global scale like a Toyota to invest in multiple technologies and be able to recover the costs.

The right and wrong here should be aimed at the GOI and its policies. They listen to all the 'lobbyists' and are the ones who finally make the decisions!

[Fastdriver]

Originally Posted by fiat_tarun

There is no right and wrong in this. It is a business and people running the business will 'lobby' to protect their businesses. Maruti's strength is light weight, affordable fuel efficient vehicles and any policy that threatens this aspect of their business will be opposed.

Similarly Tata Motors decided on BEV's based on the GOI direction at the time and they will defend any change to that policy. Please remember Tata doesn't have global scale like a Toyota to invest in multiple technologies and be able to recover the costs.

The right and wrong here should be aimed at the GOI and its policies. They listen to all the 'lobbyists' and are the ones who finally make the decisions!

Yes, it's a known fact. I, as a middle class customer want to get the benefit of tax reduction on hybrid cars. I don't want to go for the EVs which are not suited for my usage and also will never be practical in India. In this era of competition, Tata can also go the hybrid route, it should not be impossible. India is proud of Tata, it has a good reputation. They could have refrained from such anti consumer negativism. Let the customer be the king. I hope the powers that be make the wrongs for customers like me right by changing the policies.

[rkmountain]

Are there any Tax cuts for Hybrids in this Budget.

[volkman10]

The lobbying continues by TATA motors against subsidy for hybrids.

Hybrid is a CAFÉ compliant technology, nothing more than that - Group CFO Tata Motors

Amid growing buzz to incentivise hybrid vehicle technology, Tata Motors Group CFO has said, “hybrid is a transient technology” and EV is the “destination technology” that needs “viability funding”, the Government of India has rightly chosen to support EVs.

Rationalising further - the CFOi argued that EVs and hybrids are not to be compared, it is diesel and hybrids where the comparison needs to be done.

Link:

[Carma2017]

I think yesterday, at the Bharat Mobility Expo, the Hon. PM settled the issue He was clear that we need batteries made with Indian raw materials and not imported ones. So, basically, GOI would give preferential treatment to any party who is making batteries with local Tech and Local RM. As of now, no one is. Let's see what the future shows

[SAE40 in veins]

Originally Posted by fordday

TATA did not put their money into hybrids because Gadkari said there will no tax concessions on hybrids. If I remember, he even used the term 'bulldoze' to make all car makers to go electric.

Why shouldn't TATA's oppose tax concessions on hybrid now?
Had it been in other countries the minister would have lost his job by now, for his flip flop policies.

This may not be as simple as it sounds. A strong hybrid is a tech which is much more difficult to master than a Pure EV tech. In pure EV, the aggregates are very much commoditized as on date, meaning any new player with a capable chassis can buy the batteries, motor etc and integrate the same into a vehicle, with the exception of the 'Battery Management System'(BMS), Vehicle Calibration and softwares which they have to develop. When it comes to strong hybrids, the same logic does not work so easily. There are makers of Automatic transmissions who integrate the hybrid tech and sell it to Commercial Vehicle makers. One can source Hybrid Tech for CVs from players like Eaton, ZF etc. When it comes to cars and SUVs where the vehicles are offered in umpteen permutations and combinations of engines and gearboxes, such 'Sourced' tech cannot be offered across the range becomes a dampener for the OEMs. Also Hybrids have to be configured for charging 'on the move' which means that the control system should be much more intricate and complex to simulate various traffic situations. Also there is the problem of the BMS failing due to yearly 'energy density' deterioration to the tune of 2.5% to 5%. All these headaches put together is enough to discourage any manufacturer to take the 'Full Hybrid' route. AFAIK, the 'Start-Stop' Mild hybrid is 'NOT A HYBRID' and just a misuse of the word hybrid.
Our home grown giants, Tata and Mahindra have not been able to master this tech is proof enough that it is not easy.

[Fastdriver]

Originally Posted by SAE40 in veins

Our home grown giants, Tata and Mahindra have not been able to master this tech is proof enough that it is not easy.

For Tata it is like "grapes are sour"(for the fox), for Mahindra I am not certain.
Tata's actions to put hurdles in getting our rightful benefits are condemnable. My respects towards Tata is going down the drain. (I am sure they will never bother to care.) Their ICE cars are horrific for the considerable unlucky consumers and EVs of their kind are simply impractical. The powers that be are simply clueless why they themselves are pushing for such impractical EVs and the reason is not difficult to understand. Afterall, formal education in such specialised subjects is necessary to take such important policy decisions for the powers that be. (Questionable educational qualification will not suffice.)

[TorqueIndia]

Originally Posted by SAE40 in veins

A strong hybrid is a tech which is much more difficult to master than a Pure EV tech. In pure EV, the aggregates are very much commoditized as on date, meaning any new player with a capable chassis can buy the batteries, motor etc and integrate the same into a vehicle, with the exception of the 'Battery Management System'(BMS), Vehicle Calibration and softwares which they have to develop.

Still wonder why Toyota who's such an expert in taming difficult technologies is still struggling in a rather simple EV space. Hope Suzuki will help the giant as earliest as 2025 atleast.

2023 statistics stands as follows :

Toyota corp: Total -11M , BEV : 100K units.
VW group : Total -9.3M , BEV : 800K units.
Tesla : Total -1.8M units.
BYD : Total- 3M , BEV : 1.57M units.
TML : Total- 1M , BEV: 75K units.

IMO Toyota would have gulped the BYD way before, only it's Chinese origin is stopping them, due to Japan-China conflict.

[SAE40 in veins]

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

Still wonder why Toyota who's such an expert in taming difficult technologies is still struggling in a rather simple EV space. Hope Suzuki will help the giant as earliest as 2025 atleast.

2023 statistics stands as follows :

Toyota corp: Total -11M , BEV : 100K units.
VW group : Total -9.3M , BEV : 800K units.
Tesla : Total -1.8M units.
BYD : Total- 3M , BEV : 1.57M units.
TML : Total- 1M , BEV: 75K units.

IMO Toyota would have gulped the BYD way before, only it's Chinese origin is stopping them, due to Japan-China conflict.

This one is easier to answer. Toyota is a massively process oriented company and is organizationally structured so. They have put their money and energy in strong hybrids right from the 'Prius' days of yore. The various COE (centre of excellence) and the painstakingly developed vendor base etc in Japan and elsewhere points to this fact. Now taking the pure EV route would mean ditching all this investment and effort without a seriously meaningful return on the same and hence Toyota is batting for the Hybrids which in today's world is actually a sensible thing to do. Circumstances and competition will force them to go the Pure EV way is the ultimate truth, which we all know and will see soon.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

Still wonder why Toyota who's such an expert in taming difficult technologies is still struggling in a rather simple EV space. Hope Suzuki will help the giant as earliest as 2025 atleast.

I am sure Toyota is trying hard to make up lost ground in the 'simple' EV space but expecting suzuki to save them is funny. Anything outside making a light cheap manual 4-cyl petrol vehicle is a challenge for suzuki, which is why they are always on the look out for a bigger parent to help, GM, then VW and now Toyota. Most well funded engineering Unis nowadays have better R&D prowess than suzuki. Lets not forget maruti spent two years trying to achieve BS6 certification on their diesel engines and failed miserably.

Like I said Toyota will have better success with EVs, and suzuki hopes that will somehow rub off on them as well, not the other way round.

[Carma2017]

Making an EV is actually simpler than an IC Engine if you know what you are doing. In most cases globally, Battery Tech, Motors/Inverters and core design is coming as a BOP from sources like CATL, BYD etc. and packaging is done by OEM including heat management. In that case designing a vehicle around it is much easier comparatively. Of course, If the battery design is inhouse, that will make it challenging but there are very very few OEMs who are doing so. Hence, we see many new companies jumping into the fray to make EVs. Managing costs would be a challenge in all types of build models of course.

IC Engine technology is a different beast to conquer as it is mostly managed in house. Meeting the latest regulations with an IC Engine requires a very high level of electrification and frictional loss reduction and I have utmost respect for OEMs who are able to manage this.

As far as Toyota is concerned, they know it's a red ocean as far as the current EV scene is concerned with regular battery chemistry ruling the roost. Hence, they are looking for the magic bullet to create a blue ocean where they can dominate. Whether that will be "Hopium" (Hydrogen) or Solid State Batteries Only time will tell. In the meanwhile, they are doing just enough to stay relevant. In Japan, Suzuki and Toyota engineers are jointly developing EV platforms and powertrains for future cars that can be used for developing markets like ours. Suzuki alone of course cannot do so. In Hybrid space, of course you will find different strong hybrid options from each of their stables.

[Lifeographer84]

Originally Posted by electric_eel

I am curious what made you think ATTO 3 can only do 200 km. I think it will take some special effort to discharge it completely in 200 km (say climb Mt. Everest). My Nexon Max gives me close to 300 in 100-20 % SoC.

That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it am I not? Besides I was being sarcastic in this particular point. Hope you have read my entire post.

And best of luck for driving on My Everest

[Raghuwire]

Originally Posted by SAE40 in veins

Our home grown giants, Tata and Mahindra have not been able to master this tech is proof enough that it is not easy.

I would like to know, if you have insider information on how these two tried to master the tech and failed? I have not seen any test mules of hybrid tech of these vehicles.

Secondly, do we see any other country or companies investing heavily in research of hybrids? Is it right to push this down the throat of our domestic manufacturers now?

[SAE40 in veins]

Originally Posted by Raghuwire

I would like to know, if you have insider information on how these two tried to master the tech and failed? I have not seen any test mules of hybrid tech of these vehicles.

Secondly, do we see any other country or companies investing heavily in research of hybrids? Is it right to push this down the throat of our domestic manufacturers now?

I do have some info but that cannot be disclosed in a public forum. I will leave that point at that. Secondly you may not have seen any test mules simply because the tech never left the drawing board and reached the prototyping stations. Hybrid tech is commoditized in CVs with Eaton and ZF offering transmission plus hybrid boost motor as a kit but the same is not the case in PVs due to packaging requirements and front wheel drive configs.

Coming to why Hybrids, the answer lies in the lakhs of Corolla and Camry Hybrids doing Taxi duties in many parts of the world where gasoline is the mainstay fuel. To be honest, the electric car with a practical range of 250 - 300 km is your second car for the office commute and not the one you would take for a long trip as it stands. So in today's circumstances, the ICE engine and hybrids are much more practical is a hard truth and hence there will definitely be takers for the same if it is affordable.

[damodar]

Originally Posted by Raghuwire

I would like to know, if you have insider information on how these two tried to master the tech and failed? I have not seen any test mules of hybrid tech of these vehicles.

Tata in fact showcased a Manza hybrid with a 45kw electric motor 11 years back!
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post2637804 (Tata Motors @ Auto Expo 2012)
https://www.motorbeam.com/tata-showc...ybrid-concept/