[Carma2017]

The basic premise of the article is incorrect in my opinion and I say that without meaning any offense.

The pricing and engine strategy is linked to vehicle positioning. Suzuki has a very clear thought there in 4m SUV line up : New SUV in 2026-27 < Fronx < Brezza<= Jimny.

In any case, now that the puny 1.0L non-sense turbo engine has made its way back to India after the Baleno RS, it will surely enter Brezza during its next mid life cosmetic facelift along with Stronger Hybrid options. But do not expect any price reduction as the 1.0L turbo engine is a costly non-localised engine. So,all the duty exemptions would absorb this price increase. Of course Suzuki might localise and reduce costs.

Like all other OEMs, Suzuki will not invest anymore in any new IC engines. So a 1.2 L turbo is out of the picture. All of Suzuki's engine decisions are driven by CAFE due to lack of EVs. TATA manages it's Harriers and Safaris by their EVs. Since Hyundai doesn't have the volume EVs, they are not able to meet CAFE. I remember once upon a time Suzuki paid a Rs1300 Cr fine in Europe for not meeting CAFE. I guess their decisions are heavily governed by the same now a days.

[harikrishnansp]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

That is the exact equation where Nexon is doing higher numbers than Brezza. The 1.5L petrol in Brezza make less power and torque than Nexon's 1.2L. Also 3rd party insurance is very expensive and fuel efficiency too is very low. That is the very reason sensible people dump Brezza and buy the Fronx. After all Maruti Suzuki is known for small cars and no one buys expensive cars from them.

Brezza being a 1.5L Petrol with higher tax slabs has to compete against Kia, Tata and Hyundai, which is a tough task.

It is absolutely ok to buy a brezza and grand vitara. They are going to give you returns through low cost of ownership and also retain a high resale value when you decide to part with them. It was not ok to buy an expensive car from maruti when they were selling the CBU kizashi and old grand vitara. Or the SX4 with that guzzler of an engine.

The brezza and new gen grand vitara are solid products,with the grand vitara priced competitively. The brezza is priced on the higher side because of reasons mentioned in the post.

[harikrishnansp]

Originally Posted by pqr

It is the best seller because of its SUV stance; time and again, it has been proven in several customer clinics. Bottom line: The best seller is not making the best profit. The answer is a comfort zone of 1.5 NA; that is not good in the long run to make a profit.

Maybe they should come out of their comfort zone. And give it the 1.0 turbo. Reasons rumoured were that drivability was an issue with the 1.0 in brezza. If it was a 1.2 turbo petrol like the Nexon it could have done the job.

[antz.bin]

What is stopping Maruti from localising the 1.0 Turbo engine?

Renault/Nissan 1.0 Turbo
Hyundai 1.0 and 1.5 Turbo
Tata 1.2 Turbo
Mahindra 1.2 and 2.0 Turbo
Skoda/VW 1.0 and 1.5 TSI

Aren't all of these above localised as well?

As I type this, I see the problem. None of these are Japanese companies. And none of the other Japanese companies have turbo engines for sale. This is literally the only forced induction petrol engine sold in India by a Japanese company (if you discount the supercharged Kawasakis )

The Japanese are getting older and as they age, they keep losing the plot more and more.

Edit: Just realised that Nissan is Japanese but then it is almost wholly owned by Renault

[DRPSREDDY]

Originally Posted by harikrishnansp

It is absolutely ok to buy a brezza and grand vitara. They are going to give you returns through low cost of ownership and also retain a high resale value when you decide to part with them.

The brezza and new gen grand vitara are solid products,with the grand vitara priced competitively. The brezza is priced on the higher side because of reasons mentioned in the post.

Agreed that Brezza is a solid product. But the entire value of sub 4 meter category is lost when you plonk a higher capacity engine. It goes into a higher segment, that means you are paying a higher price for a lower segment car. What is the use?

People buy it with a heard mentality because they believe in the brand but makes no sense as you are paying premium for a small car. Only the boxy size is playing credit. Rather buying Grand Vitara makes sense and once Hybrid subsidies start, Brezza will loose value quickly.

Rather Maruti should plan a 1.2L hybrid. It will cost the same as Hybrid components costs the same as increase in 6% tax. The savings will be on tax and insurance. Also 1.5L engine spares will be more expensive than 1.2L engine components.

[Jas21]

This is a good initial but incomplete comparison to declare what Maruti is making on a given model. One thing has to be remembered before declaring that Maruti is earning less on a given model compared to other (solely based on taxes):
1. We do not know their cost of production.
2. What we have are only assumptions on economies of scales etc. and not actual figures.
3. We also don't know how different platforms are depreciated in their accounting books, and what is making more sense for them in their balance sheets. May be 1.5L engine is a great Cash Cow now, and May be R&D expense on 1 Litre turbo is still showing on their accounting books. Again we have not checked that.
4. Last is the market segmentation and positioning angle, they would have run endless what if scenarios to determine what will work in which car given the Market positioning, their own image for reliability etc.

So declaring that Maruti is missing a trick basis half info would be bit amateurish. May be you are not wrong, but this comparison can never be sufficient to declare that Maruti will make more by using 1 L engine in Brezza.

[Samba]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

People buy it with a heard mentality because they believe in the brand but makes no sense as you are paying premium for a small car.

Sir, lets make a price comparison for the base variant ex-showroom prices with few of the competition models -

Venue 1.2L base variant - 7.89 L

Venue 1.0L turbo MT base variant- 10.40L

Nexon 1.2L Turbo petrol base variant- 9.18L

Sonet Petrol base variat HTE , 1.2L - 7.99L

Sonet 1.0 L turbo (imt) base variant - 10.49L

Xuv300 turbo Petrol base variant - 7.99L

Brezza 1.5L petrol base variant- 8.29 L

As per the above price range, customers are getting a 1.5L NA engine for nearly the price of a 1.2L NA engine. The 1.0/1.2L turbos are costlier.
The only turbo petrol priced lower than the Brezza is the Xuv300. Though it's upper variants are costly.
Overall the price of the Brezza is quite competitive.

The whole point of the thread starter was, by selling the 1.5L engine in the Brezza, Maruti is earning a lesser revenue, not that the customers are at a loss. Plus the 1.5L engine in the Brezza will pull the car in a much effortless way than the 1.2L NA engine.

Now coming to the 1.0L turbo Boosterjet in the Fronx, this car starts from an ex-showroom price of 9.73L. The Delta Plus variant of the Fronx with a 1.0L Turbo engine is costlier than the Brezza VXI which costs 9.64L ex-showrrom!

In one hand you won't get the tax benefit in a 1.5L engine, & on the other hand you pay more for a turbo equipped engine and save on the tax.
The choice is yours. Maruti has given both the options to their customers! Get the Fronx 1.0 turbo/1.2 NA or the Brezza 1.5 NA!
Among these two, my choice will any-day be the the Brezza. The whole point of buying a sub4 meter car is not only saving money, getting a good engine matters too. Till the Ecosport was in production, even it had that wonderful 1.5L NA Dragon engine.

[DRPSREDDY]

Originally Posted by Samba

As per the above price range, customers are getting a 1.5L NA engine for nearly the price of a 1.2L NA engine. The 1.0/1.2L turbos are costlier.
The only turbo petrol priced lower than the Brezza is the Xuv300. Though it's upper variants are costly.
Overall the price of the Brezza is quite competitive.

The whole point of the thread starter was, by selling the 1.5L engine in the Brezza, Maruti is earning a lesser revenue, not that the customers are at a loss. Plus the 1.5L engine in the Brezza will pull the car in a much effortless way than the 1.2L NA engine.

This is pure contradictory to business sense. Why should you lose money? You are forced to sell a car at cheaper price because tax is eating into your profit. Customer and company both are at loss on long run.

Originally Posted by Samba

Now coming to the 1.0L turbo Boosterjet in the Fronx, this car starts from an ex-showroom price of 9.73L. The Delta Plus variant of the Fronx with a 1.0L Turbo engine is costlier than the Brezza VXI which costs 9.64L ex-showrrom!

Fronx is a smaller car, basically a hatch on steroids. So no point comparing it to Brezza.

Originally Posted by Samba

Among these two, my choice will any-day be the the Brezza. The whole point of buying a sub4 meter car is not only saving money, getting a good engine matters too. Till the Ecosport was in production, even it had that wonderful 1.5L NA Dragon engine.

My point is the entire value of sub 4 meter is lost due to higher costs and not only the company has to compromise but also the end customer. And 1.5L NA has good low end performance but loses out on highway performance and hill climbing ability. Check it out in the Motoroctane comparison on YouTube.

When Ecosport engine was launched, turbocharged engine was expensive and not in vogue.

[ex-innova-guy]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

And 1.5L NA has good low end performance but loses out on highway performance and hill climbing ability. Check it out in the Motoroctane comparison on YouTube.

Sir, have you extensively driven the 1.5L NA? I have the same K15C engine in my Hyryder and it easily maintains the highest speed limit on our highways i.e. 120kph. It sure isn’t as quick as the other competitors of likes such as Taigun, Kushaq, Seltos, etc but does the job very well. Be in the right gear and it won’t disappoint. I have driven it 21,000 km since June 2023 over various terrains and can tell you from my own experience rather than some YouTube comparison.

[fhdowntheline]

I will give a slightly different perspective to the engine size efficiency debate. I have a Tiago petrol manual which is about 7000km old and the Verna turbo DCT which is at about 2900km now. Under moderate city traffic conditions, the Verna turbo gives similar fuel efficiency to the Tiago ( 12-14) . On highways, I have observed nothing less than 16-17 kmpl, sometimes even touching 20 kmpl plus. So I think a poweful but well tuned turbo powertrain is as good as a traditional NA engine and power-in-reserve is always a bonus. Maruti needs to look at a powerful 1.5 turbo if at all they have in the Suzuki bin and put it on the G Vitara or Brezza.

[DRPSREDDY]

Originally Posted by ex-innova-guy

Sir, have you extensively driven the 1.5L NA? I have the same K15C engine in my Hyryder and it easily maintains the highest speed limit on our highways i.e. 120kph. It sure isn’t as quick as the other competitors of likes such as Taigun, Kushaq, Seltos, etc but does the job very well. Be in the right gear and it won’t disappoint.

Driving satisfaction varies from person to person. Here they have compared all the cars and have rated the Engine sluggish among all on top end performance. Please don't take Motoroctane as some other YouTube channel. They are one of the top rated and reputed automobile channels. The same is rated for Tiguan and Kushaq 1.5L NA over 1.0L Turbocharged engine.

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

I will give a slightly different perspective to the engine size efficiency debate. I have a Tiago petrol manual which is about 7000km old and the Verna turbo DCT which is at about 2900km now. Under moderate city traffic conditions, the Verna turbo gives similar fuel efficiency to the Tiago ( 12-14) . On highways, I have observed nothing less than 16-17 kmpl, sometimes even touching 20 kmpl plus. So I think a poweful but well tuned turbo powertrain is as good as a traditional NA engine and power-in-reserve is always a bonus. Maruti needs to look at a powerful 1.5 turbo if at all they have in the Suzuki bin and put it on the G Vitara or Brezza.

Exactly. Fuel efficiency is also subpar in Brezza compared to others and Maruti needs to plan things differently and average performance and mileage will not go for long. Turbo may lead to little more maintanence in the long run but fun to drive factor in lost on highways and to keep up pace you need to work up the gears.

[AutoNoob]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

This is pure contradictory to business sense. Why should you lose money? You are forced to sell a car at cheaper price because tax is eating into your profit. Customer and company both are at loss on long run...

When Ecosport engine was launched, turbocharged engine was expensive and not in vogue.

I have a different take on this choice of engine (Petrol 1.5NA vs 1.0TC) and the resultant GST Cess slab.

Maruti was on the way to develop 1.5 BS6 Diesel. But that plan was dropped for various reasons before BS6 norms came into force (Apr 2020).

After that Maruti started advertising the commercial benefits of Petrol engine over Diesel engine.

Maruti now says = Diesel car costs can only be recovered after 260,000 km

The BS4 avatar of the 1.5 diesel was good blend of economy and performance (though I still liked the Hyundai 1.5 diesel more and the 1.6 diesel way more). BS6 version, had it launched, would have been perfect for Brezza. They probably even tried to revive the diesel plans.

Maruti may do a U-turn on plan to ditch diesel, diesel re-entry likely in 2021

Then it was finally dropped for good.

Rumour: Maruti shelves 1.5L BS6 diesel engine plans

In all this flip flop, Maruti found itself between rock and hard place for Brezza powertrain.

• No diesel option
• 1.0TC Petrol probably some significant performance/ structural issues (it was developed for much lighter platform)
• 1.5NA Petrol not enough grunt at top end
• 1.5 Petrol Hybrid (Toyota sourced) being further higher in cost

So, the planners at Maruti voted for 1.5NA petrol (a compromise) even though it meant lower profits. May be in future, Brezza be offered with Toyota Hybrid engine. Then again, it won't increase the revenue/ profit, but provide the performance boost.

Moreover, I believe Brezza is making profit on sales, albeit less, and bringing revenue via service etc. so, I term it as good business decision considering the options available.

Originally Posted by ex-innova-guy

Sir, have you extensively driven the 1.5L NA? I have the same K15C engine in my Hyryder and it easily maintains the highest speed limit on our highways i.e. 120kph. It sure isn’t as quick as the other competitors of likes such as Taigun, Kushaq, Seltos, etc but does the job very well. Be in the right gear and it won’t disappoint.

It's a personal choice. I usually don't drive at more than 100kmph (according to speed limits), but definitely want faster in-gear acceleration for quick overtakes. That's where I find 1.5NA lacking.

Before you ask, I have 'extensively' driven multiple types of vehicles and powertrains.

[anjan_c2007]

MSIL has mastered the A and B segments, now nearly getting ready to receive its doctorate for their tremendous understanding in this Arena. They know how to make the A segment cars safer than two wheelers (as R.C.Bhargava says), emerge the people's top favourites despite ZERO to ONE NCAP stars, duck the six airbag sermon from Delhi plus many more. The Arena is their home pitch.

The C and C plus segments are still alien to the MSIL clan. Hence there are goofups here like the Fronx versus Brezza revenues and so on. We can expect more such NEXA hits and misses sooner or later.

[Bhokal]

Originally Posted by Samba

Sir, lets make a price comparison for the base variant ex-showroom prices with few of the competition models -

Venue 1.2L base variant - 7.89 L

Venue 1.0L turbo MT base variant- 10.40L

Nexon 1.2L Turbo petrol base variant- 9.18L

Sonet Petrol base variat HTE , 1.2L - 7.99L

Sonet 1.0 L turbo (imt) base variant - 10.49L

Xuv300 turbo Petrol base variant - 7.99L

Brezza 1.5L petrol base variant- 8.29 L

Nexon base variant starts at 8.10 L

For whatever reasons, Suzuki has been too conservative in their biggest market. Considering their undisputed top position here, they should have been going out with all engines blazing.

[Geta]

Originally Posted by pqr

Maruti earns less revenue on Brezza than Fronx | Reason : Flawed petrol engine strategy

Attachment 2558029
Maruti’s engine strategy for Brezza is totally flawed since BS6 transition. They should have put that 1L turbocharged engine in the Brezza and could have garnered higher revenue from each car sale, even after keeping the price the same, just like the rival Hyundai Venue.

Several flawed assumptions here. Probably you are getting carried away by the peak power/peak torque nunbers of the 1.0L Boosterjet engine vis-a-vis the 1.5L NA engine and you are also probably assuming that both these engines have the same manufacturing/maintenance costs.

For starters, some years back, in the same <4m SUV category, Ford had offered Ecosport with 1.0L Ecoboost engine and with 1.5L NA Dragon petrol engine. Contrary to your hypothesis, Ecosport with the Ecoboost engine was costlier by about Rs 85K in comparison to the one with the 1.5L Dragon engine, for the same variant. This is DESPITE the higher tax rates for the Dragon petrol engine. (Screenshot attached). Hence this makes the economics part of the discussion pretty clear.

Coming to the practical part, until the turbo kicks in at 1500-2000 RPM, the Boosterjet is just yet another 1.0 liter engine. There will be several situations almost daily where this vehicle will need good low end power (at low rpms) when this vehicle will feel underpowered, like climbing up a flyover in a slow-moving traffic or climbing up a ramp in multi-level parking with 5 passengers.

Another point is that mating a small capacity turbocharged petrol engine to a torque converter auto-box is not a good idea. Apart from the technical difficulties, even the fuel efficiency is going to be abysmal. Even Ford launched only the Dragon engine with AT and not the Ecoboost engine. Small underpowered petrol engine (in low RPMs) with CVT will be a disaster as it will increase the rubber-band effect. So if Maruti is to launch Brezza with the 1.0 Boosterjet with AT, it has to be with a DCT. Such a combination will be very very expensive and unreliable compared to the 1.5L NA engine with the torque converter gear box.

These are the reasons I feel that made Maruti to settle with the present engine-gearbox combination, despite very low profit margins.