[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by Sankar

I remember the 2020 Thar AX 4WD priced below 10L ex-showroom, the one with painted metal floors no carpet, bare bones interiors, no stereo, soft top, 6 seater with two side facing bench rear seats at the rear. That was priced appropriately as a Thar CRDI replacement which was a slightly modern MM540 and the Thar DI which is basically a MM540.
.

You are missing the point here , expectations with regards to price were already set - but more importantly it is what the OEM could bring ( increase in price is a given ). Is Jimny the best Maruti could do?

It's worth mentioning that Thar CRDe looked like an MM540, the similarities end there , even the use case was completely different.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Is Jimny the best Maruti could do?

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

I do not think Jimny is their best today as the Swift was when launched.

You are asking a question that you have an accepted answer for and anything else would be a denial. Personally I think the best Maruti today is Invicto, the one made by Toyota.

Btw what happened to Thar AX 6 seater 4WD ST priced below 10L? Was it a PR exercise introductory price gimmick? If that was still being sold it would have helped with Jimny pricing. Not the castrated RWD.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

It's worth mentioning that Thar CRDe looked like an MM540, the similarities end there , even the use case was completely different.

Some facts.
Dad used to have a succession of MM540’s and 550’s when he worked on the Tea and Coffee Estates. The first ones were plain MM540’s with a 2112cc engine and later they were given 2594cc engines with a little more power. All these diesel engines were quite torquey and were all derived from Peugeot. Up until 2007 or so the Bolero was being sold with the Peugeot XD3PU engine putting out 65bhp. Good
Torque but low top end.

The Thar with the DI engine and then the Crde engine was essentially the same old MM540 in many ways except for a thorough heart, kidney and lover transplant. Cosmetically also if we look at a simple thing like that crease on the front doors - that itself was simply continued, albeit dropping the Jeep name plate on the front fender.

I went with my Dad to see the Thar Crde when it was released in 2009-2010 and his very first remark upon getting into the driving seat, was that it was essentially the same as his old MM540. I had actually documented this on team bhp on some thread relating to the Thar Crde.

The MM540 of 1995 actually had a more ergonomically placed gear lever and legroom for a tall person as compared to the one in the first gen Thar and the DI and the 2010 Thar Crde.

Most Estate Companies barring a few, used to buy Mahindra Jeeps because of their simplicity and reliability, apart from the simple operational and logistical fact that Diesel was heavily subsidised and the same Diesel (HSD) which was used to power the Tractors and Lorries and Generator engines used to be used in the Jeeps.

Maruti Gypsy those days was bought by some Plantation Companies who preferred the refinement of petrol and offered these vehicles to their Managers as a go anywhere official cum personal vehicle. In the 1980’s and 1990’s the Gypsy was the epitome of ‘Modern Refinement’. Most people bought their hard top Gypsys and fitted a heater and AC and radial tyres (205/70/15) and changed the seats to forward facing ones and made it a little more liveable with in its persona as a personal vehicle.

Look at the articles in the popular press of particularly the early 2000’s and you’ll find plenty of documented references to the fact that the Mahindra Jeeps were ‘agricultural’. Yes, the engines did sound loud, but the Jeep was a very good workhorse because that was its main application. Then the Thar came along with the DI engine and later the Crde engine. Again people did used to remark about the ‘agricultural’ nature of the DI and the ‘refinement’ of the Crde. The same members of the popular press used to say the Gypsy was unbearable because of its leaf springs. (I beg to differ and have documented the fact that if one keeps one’s Gypsy ‘stock’ and uses the correct air pressures in the tyres and drives it as it ought to be driven, it is quite comfortable. I have one so I can prove it to any naysayer.)

But I digress; None of these much-vaunted journalists who wrote so scathingly and tried to be so clever with their contrived sarcasm in their descriptions about these vehicles, were ever called upon, like those on the Plantations were, or like the Armed Forces were, to use them extensively, in all weathers and terrains, day in and day out, year after year. So frankly, none of them, in real-life, would ever be able to appreciate the sheer peace of mind that the reliability and versatility of these vehicles provided, to those users in remote and far away places.

The Jimny then, is essentially a much more modernised, refined, well engineered, go-anywhere vehicle. Its diminutive looks belie its toughness and its abilities. The Jimny is like that ‘lithe, fit martial artist’ who succeeds because of his technique, lightness and nimbleness.

The new Thar carries all the DNA of its predecessors and ancestors and in its right, is a solid, go-anywhere vehicle which inspires huge confidence to users over all sorts of surfaces. Almost as though its ‘bulk’ and ‘toughness’ and ‘seating position’ makes the user believe in his or her own ‘Invincibility’ - I’ve remarked many times about this on other threads. It is like that ‘Heavyweight Boxer’ who may be able administer a single KO Punch on the Chin or on the Solar Plexus and thus render the opposition ‘null and void’ and a ‘Spent Force.’’

Again it is worth reiterating that there is really no point going on comparing these two vehicles. Both are first class in their own right. They are chalk and cheese and meant for people who want different things from their go-anywhere vehicles. But there are many amongst the buying public (perhaps the less Vociferous ones) who will be able to appreciate both for what they are, and then the very few well-heeled ones who can actually buy and own both, for different applications.

As mentioned before, in general, those who are primarily seeking strong cruising capabilities, powerful engines, imposing size and bulk, brute-force capabilities and ‘sheer road-presence’ will keep on buying the new Thar and extolling it.

Those looking primarily for a relatively understated, diminutive yet highly capable little workhorse, to park easily in crowded cities and narrow hilltop towns and to get to those difficult-to-reach places in the countryside, will buy a Jimny and extol it.

The price is only one consideration amongst many others and anyway a very large portion of the pricing is dictated by the significantly large Governmental Taxes and Levies which vary so wide-rangingly depending on in which state in the country one is making the purchase.

[Neil Roy]

Jimny selling as much as it did in itself a miracle. I'm pretty sure the S cross, the original Grand Vitara or the Kizashi sold even half the volumes of the Jimny. The Indian market is evolving but not to the extent of small SUVs. I don't think Thar can be termed a lifestyle vehicle due to the sheer volume it sells. My only gripe is the immediate price cuts. It points to two things. Maruti have accepted defeat in the Jimny battle and they are already moving on and Jimny is or soon will be history.

[shibujp]

Any chance Maruti may be thinking of offering the Jimny is just one trim - Alpha. Which in a way make sense.

Drive on,
Shibu

[beingsidd]

this flyer explains why the car doesn't sell. the dealers are incompetent for them its just another car.

[NewUser123]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

It is almost 20 years since those days. And the prices of every single thing has passed the stratosphere.

I agree with what you said and would like to list a shortcut I use when thinking in terms of "old" prices vs today's prices.

I either convert the "old" price to GOLD or USD and see if a price seems reasonable.

Gold was at $400 odd level vs nearly $2,000 now. So, USD has depreciated vs Gold. Gold prices 2004-09 in USD.

Second, the Rupee has further depreciated against the USD too... nearly half (from around 40 to around 83 today). See attached image.

So, all the price rises seem reasonable to me.

Just providing some data and context.

[r0nit7]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

In 2018-2019 just before production was stopped the prices had gone up to 8.8 lacs on road Bangalore and that was mostly academic because it was not freely available anyway. Also consider that a top Specification Swift today costs about 12 lacs in Bangalore.

Very well summed up.

Hypothetically, had MS simply increased the prices of the Gypsy by 70-80k every year with minor updates from 2018-19, which is more or less the norm these days anyways, and then launched the Jimmy as an all new Gypsy (and named it Gypsy as well) at the current prices with a Sigma variant undercutting the erstwhile Gypsy - no one would have batted an eyelid at the current Jimny prices.

[Mystic]

I think more than pricing which is the subject for this thread, it is all about the options we have in India now . I can still remember the days of Maruti 800 when introduced in India, we were all comparing with Ambassadors and Premier Padminis and it was a great success even though it is small in size but Indians for the first time were introduced to the Japanese efficiency of space and reliability. Similarly when the Japanese bikes were introduced after having experienced Yezdi, Rajdoot and Bullet, we all became instant fans for these small in weight and efficient bikes.

Americans love big gas guzzlers trucks as gas is cheap and sold in gallons and not liters. The psyche of Americans changed during Katrina hurricane days when gas became very costly, Americans started appreciating Toyota cars.

I had an opportunity to go abroad in early 70s and exposed to a lot of car models. In 90s, my cousins in India had seen only the so called big car and small car on Indian roads. It was a small leap for me personally but a quantum leap to my cousins. Eventually we started talking about 4 ,6,8 cylinder cars and now in 2023, we have so many choices out there that even petrol heads are having a hard time to keep with the options.

Yesterday, at a gas station, the attendants were discussing on how Maruti is charging so much for a jeep like shape Jimny and it is nothing but a wagoner. Another guy who seemed to have more knowledge was saying that Jimny is a four wheel drive. There was a discussion that all cars are 4 wheel drive as they all have 4 wheels.

When I see on this thread of comparing Thar with Jimny reminds of a quote by my grand father UG, “There has been no qualitative change in man's thinking; we feel about our neighbours just as the frightened caveman felt towards his. The only thing that has changed is our ability to destroy our neighbour and his property.”

[joybhowmik]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Just for info and relative comparison purposes, ...
And that is also why, with every passing week, while I still love my Thar very much in many ways, I am also gravitating towards making that Jimny purchase.

I am not given to fanatic fan followings of one brand or other. I prefer practicality for my context above all else, and todays Jimny , Thar, Scorpio N , Isuzu, Hilux, Fortuner 4WD fail to meet required specs viz Petrol 4WD(not an insipid AWD) , with enough power, good turning radius, substantive road presence and compliant to Indian regulatory landscape of disliking diesels.

Do you think waiting for the Toyota mini landcruiser is futile?

[Mortis]

I guess we could say that at the current price and package, the Jimny makes sense mostly to those who want or need 4*4 and will actually use it. For everyone else, a 2WD version which is cheaper, lighter due to removal of the 4wd system, faster and more frugal in fuel consumption would make more sense in terms of people who like the shape and size of the Jimny

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by joybhowmik

I

Do you think waiting for the Toyota mini landcruiser is futile?

This may actually be a smart thing to do. The only thing is we don’t know when (and whether) the Lords at Toyota India will release this in India and at what price. There is a lot of talk about this being positioned as a Baby Landcruiser and Jimny Killer and all, but let it first come to our shores.
Until then, if one wants a properly capable 4x4 which is small and light weight there really isn’t much choice.

[Carma2017]

To understand the pricing of Jimny, one must understand the platform cost concept for cars. In India, typically Suzuki has two or three variants of the Heartect platform; one for the Alto/S-Presso type very small cars, a slightly wider variant for the Wagon R/ Celerio and Swift/Baleno. Apart from these, they have an old school platform for the Brezza and Vitara. Typically, they make millions of vehicles on these platforms and the cost of engineering such platforms gets spread over a huge pie.

For the Jimny, the platform is a Ladder on Frane, exclusive structure. So, the cost parity with existing platforms cannot be achieved on same scale ever. So, Jimny is bound to remain expensive. In addition, a lot of the kit in Jimny (especially mechanicals) are still possibly imported due to criticality or high cost of localisation. Even I would go so far to say that on the Jimny, Suzuki might not be making any significant profits.

With Japan and other export markets in their radar, I am sure their exports will overtake domestic sales easily in near future.

[joybhowmik]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

This may actually be a smart thing to do. The only thing is we don’t know when (and whether) the Lords at Toyota India will release this in India and at what price. There is a lot of talk about this being positioned as a Baby Landcruiser and Jimny Killer and all, but let it first come to our shores.
Until then, if one wants a properly capable 4x4 which is small and light weight there really isn’t much choice.

Not to be swayed by hype. However Toyota has produced a capable 4WD pure bred offroader with a petrol powered drive train. I refer to the FJ cruiser.
Though it's a 3 door model, still it proves Toyota is capable to deliver a viable product on a petrol platform.

Manufacturers in India , today, shy away from producing capable 4WD with a petrol drive train. Yet the price difference between petrol and diesel in New Delhi (where it matters wrt regulations ) is approximately Rs 10/l. For many adventurers the price difference is a small factor compared to overall ownership experience.

I think Toyota India has a space to perform in. It only needs to sift through the noise to identify the genuine afficiando tired of tin cans , and dirty diesels.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by joybhowmik

I refer to the FJ cruiser.
Though it's a 3 door model, still it proves Toyota is capable to deliver a viable product on a petrol platform.

Manufacturers in India , today, shy away from producing capable 4WD with a petrol drive train. Yet the price difference between petrol and diesel in New Delhi (where it matters wrt regulations ) is approximately Rs 10/l. For many adventurers the price difference is a small factor compared to overall ownership experience.

sift through the noise to identify the genuine afficiando tired of tin cans , and dirty diesels.

1.Toyota’s FJ Series was a post WW2 phenomenon which helped answer the crying need for a workhorse. Like the other manufacturers such as Mitsubishi, during the reconstruction of Japan. Those early vehicles were all petrol powered. And Toyota has been selling generations of FJ Cruisers with Petrol engines so there is no lack of capability on their part as regards Petrol. The FJ sub-brand endures until now and commands truly big prices even in the used markets.

2. I don’t think it can any longer really be said that manufacturers in India are shying away from making capable petrol powered 4x4’s. Mahindra Thar is the perfect example. 2 litre Turbo Petrol engine. Gas Guzzler. In Urban India the consumer is coming of age in a way, as regards Petrol Jeeps. (Helped along in some measure by the NGT.)

3. Dirty Diesels. Not so long ago, the early to mid-2000’s to be exact, Diesel was touted as a clean fuel basis its overall ‘efficiency’. Europe is still a big time Diesel Market. How suddenly the narrative has changed and now, Diesel has become the Devil’s own beverage of choice and those who use it have come to be reviled by others.

4.Toyota’s Land Hopper will definitely be worth waiting for and experiencing. If indeed it is a baby Landcruiser and as solid, reliable and capable, it will be a super-hit, not least because it is a Toyota. They have managed to build their brand here in India as a Premium one, based almost entirely on ‘reliability’ and the fact that people here (including the Political Partymen, Taxi-men and Commissars) need a strong, capacious, frugal, utterly reliable set of vehicles, embodied in the Innova and Etios and Fortuner and all.

5.However, of late, we are generally far too prone to judge Suzuki in India as Tin Cans. Let us remember that they more or less heralded the dawn of mass, personal, modern, refined, transportation for Indians, at an affordable price and they have more or less stayed the course, stayed true to that tenet, for the last 40 years. They have served and continue to serve the needs of the mass market car buying public, admirably in India.

6. They did indeed try to bring in some premium offerings such as the Kizashi and S Cross 1.6 but these met with a poor response. Probably because Indians have kind of ‘stereotyped or typecast Suzuki’ into some particular ‘mould’ of inexpensive, reliable, small, personal, people-movers and hence never really went for their more premium offerings. I say here in all fairness that the Kizashi and S Cross were hardly describable as tin-cans and nor is the Jimny a tin-can. If it were, it would not have met with the overwhelming response it has seen, in multiple places across the world.

7. Perhaps Suzuki could have moved faster with the times and read the changing moods of the market and offered more safety and gizmos. But then if one takes a good look at pure sales, overall they are still very very strong. And if we take the example lf Toyota, they also could have moved faster and read the market and given consumers more choices from their International Product repertoire. But they didn’t. Because they are quite content to serve the market with zillions of their and Fortuners and thousands of the badge engineered Maruti Suzukis.

There are multifarious reasons for the relatively lower desirability of the Jimny amongst the Indian public as compared to the extreme passion that its competitor the Thar, evokes and we don't need to delve more into that.

Saying this, one very real difference is that the more ‘evolved’ consumers in the more ‘evolved’ markets which are more ‘nuclear’ societies, are able to clearly appreciate high capability and good design in a small package, because it meets their needs very well.

In India however, we like to buy ‘real estate’ and ‘appearance’ when we buy a vehicle, so generally, bigger and more aggressive, is automatically considered as being more beautiful.

The Jimny is a little underdog Tyke amongst Titans. A David if you will, amongst Goliaths. It has to, in all fairness, be given its due. Pricing perceptions and consequent Sales numbers achievements of course, are another matter entirely. And considering Maruti Suzuki’s greater emphasis on ‘Sales Numbers’ than on serving a ‘niche’, I do worry very much that they may pull the plug on the poor little Jimny in India and just focus on exports.