[Guna]

Originally Posted by ritedhawan

This would bring the left bumper in full contact and not the right, that’s why the crumpling began from left of the middle bumper going up to the radiator and twisted hood, obviously the left air bag would engage not right airbag.

I am not knowledgeable about how the airbags are programmed to deploy but this is what I believes happens:
Irrespective of whether the person is sitting on left or right, they feel the same instant deceleration which makes their heads to swing forward causing neck injury and face to smash against something (even if the seat belts may hold the body back).
Energy absorbed by the crumple zone (whether the left or right part) would benefit both the passengers but the person sitting on the side of the deforming may be exposed to the danger of something intruding and harming his lower body. This should be taken care by the construction and the airbags do not help.
Therefore in my opinion, both airbags should be deployed irrespective of which corner the impact is.

[EeshanChatterje]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Any plane commercial and or military is a set of endless subassemblies. A modern cockpit has dozens and dozens different system from different suppliers. Who all rely on various suppliers too.

Jeroen

I agree that modern avionic systems are similar that they are assembled from many different subassemblies that can come from different suppliers and vendors - however I believe there's one major difference in the two industries. Requirements, Design and development in aviation is more often than not manufacturer driven whereas in the auto industry is supplier driven. Given that there are less than a handful of companies manufacturing large aeroplanes, they normally have near full control over the specs, design and functionality of each and every part. In the auto industry, however, given the large number of end-of-line assemblers, R&D is often driven from suppliers who then hope to 'sell' the latest product to multiple OEMs, and this causes the OEMs to need to take a basket approach - select parts off the catalogue and integrate. This was what I meant around not having a lot of control at the deepest level of design.

Also, I think that assigning or absolving blame for this (or any case) isn't something that is my cup of tea, my perspective is that of another guy on the road, specifically driving a Mahindra as well - the fact is that I am very conscious that my life and the safety of others in and around my car is purely in my hands, regardless of any safety systems in the car.

Originally Posted by harikr

A front airbag is designed to be deployed only if it is a direct impact which causes an impact load along the longitudinal axis of the vehicle. Only such an impact can be absorbed by the frontal airbags. As few mentioned here already, airbag deployment is not a pleasant experience. You will not even see the airbag deploying. You can only see the smoke, hear the sound and then see the deflated airbag hanging in front of you. It fires with such immense force that an unsecured passenger sitting in its front can get killed due to the opening force of the airbag. So the deployment is avoided unless it is helpful to a small extend.

I quoted this paragraph as is - I feel this is very important for every driver to be aware of. I've had airbags open up on me - words can't describe the intensity of the experience. Once the bags open, there is a 0% chance that you as a driver can do anything at all to avoid / steer away or generally anything else.

And underbody impact is one thing that is specifically calibrated as a no deployment event during the airbag programming. I haven’t seen the accident mentioned here, but normal Indian dividers are so small that it impacts the underbody normally. So airbag deployment may not happen. Also if the impact is on one side and the vehicle rolls over, side / curtain airbag should deploy (if equipped). Front airbags don’t have a role here.

Originally Posted by harikr

There are specific abuse tests to simulate cases where airbag is not to be deployed. After so much testing calibration retesting and recalibration are these vehicles launched. However all use cases cannot be recreated in a testing environment .

Wholeheartedly agree - The OEM has a lot of say in the process but you're absolutely right, no two accidents are same, and simulation testing will never cover a 100% of possible scenarios.

Originally Posted by Guna

Irrespective of whether the person is sitting on left or right, they feel the same instant deceleration which makes their heads to swing forward causing neck injury and face to smash against something (even if the seat belts may hold the body back).

Again no expert on this but from what I've read, this is not always the case. Taking an example of say a small overlap high speed crash on the passenger side, the passenger will be jerked forward and the airbag in this case will help. However the driver will not be jerked straight forward always. If the vehicle gains some angular momentum as a result of the crash, with he fulcrum at the front left side, the driver will be jerked to the front and right. Under certain circumstances, an airbag deployment can be detrimental where the bag pushes the driver's head further out to the right but the body is pushed back - causing secondary injuries.

I would probably say this to end - I don't believe any OEM or airbag manufacturer put in sub-par safety products intentionally, but there are still differences across brands, and products even. Being aware and driving safe is all we can do - and should as well.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by EeshanChatterje

Taking an example of say a small overlap high speed crash on the passenger side, the passenger will be jerked forward and the airbag in this case will help. However the driver will not be jerked straight forward always. If the vehicle gains some angular momentum as a result of the crash, with he fulcrum at the front left side, the driver will be jerked to the front and right.

Another thing I think will happen (purely based on my logic) is, if the impact is on the front left, the car may swing (tail swinging to the right) and both the occupants would be jerked somewhere in between front and right. They are sitting in the same car and carry the same inertia and they will respond to any change in the speed or direction of the car in the same way. Unless the pivot for the fulcrum lies within the car and not outside, far away from the car (which is likely).

[naikameya]

Some of the conversation here is a reaction to the trickery of language on why the sensors failed, MM needs to figure out how to make the sensors work together, etc.

It is not just that the airbag deploys only if the sensors can detect specific signals. It is not the failure of sensors/ the engineering of it to send the signals. The car/ system needs to ensure that particular airbags need to be deployed in certain situations, and it should not deploy the airbags in certain situations.

Only a genuine investigation can discover the real cause; sometimes, we can't be 100% sure. Let's remember, for every horror story involving Indian manufacturers, there are many for which we are thankful.

[Sober_Motorhead]

Sad and tragic. The parent has naturally thought that he has done his bit - give his loved one a 'very safe' stamped car. It's natural that he's shattered and takes persons he sees also responsible to task.

Hopefully, this could lead to:
- Car manufactures forced to learn from such real world accidents and improve safety.
- The safety ratings agencies forced to incorporate more real world accident testing scenarios.
- Class action law suits don't work in India. At least hope such individual cases put some financial / legal / reputational consequence on the manufacturer - if found to be guilty.

India's car safety eco-system is just playing catch up.
In a global context, most new advancements appears in active safety technology (i.e. avoiding an accident), since there is only so much passive safety technology (post accident) can achieve.

In Indian driving conditions, active safety technology, is solely the person behind the wheel.

Food for thought - the relative high speeds our cars can achieve nowadays, are well in excess of our own driving skills, civic sense on roads, road infrastructure and road design. Perhaps it's harsh to say that some drive like they have a death wish - but that's the reality. Earlier gen vehicles (like the ones Mr. V.Narayan mentioned) were simply not that dangerous in the wrong hands. The newer vehicles, across all budgets, are.

[Kln]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

All there in this thread itself. Please peruse the news articles

So there is some detail about fog, but there is no mention about modified accessories. I'm wondering if you have read it somewhere? Because it is easy to pin the blame on a dead person for driving a modified car, rather than to give him the benefit of doubt.

[EeshanChatterje]

Just looking at the photograph at https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto...782452334.html

I don't see the rood collapsed, I don't see the driver side A-pillar collapsed. This leads me to wonder what the cause of death here is? Is this public knowledge?

[shancz]

Originally Posted by Kln

So there is some detail about fog, but there is no mention about modified accessories. I'm wondering if you have read it somewhere?

Post#8 and a couple above and below it. Will have to probably go through the links.

Anyway I still think that its pointless to guess what and how of the event without having any details(except the fog) of the crash itself.
Also, makes me wonder what did the post-mortem report say about the cause of death since the FIR says no visible injuries. I am surprised that this isn't mentioned in the FIR.
I am assuming that the complainant would have some credible evidence to back their claim, especially since Mahindra have concluded their investigation and are being challenged in court. The FIR seems to bank more towards the "misleading to a false sense of security" narrative and more towards the dealership manager.

I will not even hazard a guess on the crash since critical info is missing but I would like to stress the learnings from this:

1. Driving according to the conditions prevailing. Its always better to identify a deteriorating situation of the environment or our own abilities and act accordingly.
2. Driving an expensive/large/butch/safe vehicle doesn't guarantee safety, common sense and presence of mind does.
3. Not having a crash is infinitely safer than banking on your the passive safety features.

[krankstter]

I think this technology that you're insisting hasn't been developed yet. It might require a real-time 3D mesh system of the car's body; any and all impact should be instantaneously assessed with AI calculating whether it would cause any damage to the occupants, thereby only opening the relevant airbags (depending on who's seated where). With the current tech., the sensors can only be placed in a limited number of places before the cost shoots up.

I think NCAP ratings should also include a vehicle tipping over a divider and flipping test scenario.

If this was indeed a head on collision, the impact could have still been in places where the sensors couldn't have been detected. Extremely low probability but can still happen. So, I think wanting the airbags to open in all fatal scenarios although an extremely valid concern, will most definitely take a while to be addressed by any of the corporations involved in automobile manufacturing and safety.

[krankstter]

Originally Posted by krankstter

I think this technology that you're insisting...

Missed the quote, adding here

Originally Posted by Kln

Don't trust the media reports?

Don't expect air bags to deploy?

Crash your car exactly at a particular angle at a particular speed, for the airbags to deploy?

Don't expect your car to save you when you crash?

[raptor_diwan]

I'm really impressed with the way the airbags deployed in this video. The one deployed next to his right hand, and all the side airbags activated, despite the impact being on the side of the body rather than the front.



You can watch the video on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/p/CxuzOpkM8Ek/

I'm quite confident it would deploy in the case of a rollover as well.

[Freespirit27]

Chanced upon an interesting web page while generally surfing https://indiankanoon.org/search/?for...y%20&pagenum=2
Now the interesting part is that there are more cases of Hyundai, Toyota, Maruti and some premium brands listed and in one case which led to this page of a Toyota Innova https://www.livelaw.in/consumer-case...ustomer-235322 for INR60,000 damages and Creta https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...646757978.html for INR3 lakh damages were paid, while also accepting many of the failure reasoning discussed above.
So while we may continue to demand safety features to be fail safe and all encompassing, I still feel, the choice to try to be safe or get into litigation/blame games post accident, remains of the individual. And again, while it will be interesting to see the law point at the end of the case, it will do precious little to alleviate the loss of the family.

[fiat_tarun]

Originally Posted by EeshanChatterje

... the software / hardware combination is most often *NOT* made by the car manufacturer but by the vendor that provides it.

There are ~ 10 large airbag inflator manufacturers - many Indian car manufacturers use Autoliv or Bosch, which have large manufacturing facilities in India.

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As a sidenote, The next evolution of airbag technology is possible with a fully connected car that in turn is only possible when there is a high level of vertical integration within the manufacturing ecosystem. This is diametrically opposite to where car manufacturing is today, where *manufacturers* are really just assemblers, and almost every part is sourced from suppliers (often 5-6 levels of suppliers).

Coming from a background of being a part of Airbag controller development, while the supplier supplies the product, there is a very long development cycle where the OEM plays the bigger role as they are the one's that need to provide the crash data for the vehicle basis which the calibration is done. These calibrations are then validated, including with actual physical crashes.

Also, the bag and inflator are usually supplied by one supplier and the Airbag ECU can be supplied by another supplier. Many companies like Bosch don't make the bag and inflator but are in the ECU business which actually controls the whole logic of Airbag deployment.

Going ahead OEM's like Tesla or other SW strong OEM's might decide to do the calibration themselves but the logic of of how it will work will be the same as today.

Also for general info, Airbag deployment is on the basis of acceleration sensors, where most OEM's use 2 upfront crash sensors in addition to the inbuilt sensor inside the Airbag ECU.

For side crashes you can have only acceleration sensors or add pressure sensors for faster detections.

Rollover detections can be done only if the Airbag ECU has an inertial sensor which is available only on high end hardware and hence is not a part of most mainstream cars. Without a rollover sensor, during a rollover crash unless the vehicle hits an object the sensors cannot detect a deceleration change large enough to activate the Airbags and hence you see non deployment in most cases.