[neerajku]

Originally Posted by discoverwild

Tata has only a diesel offering in this segment while Hyundai and Mahindra have both petrol and diesel ICE engines. With the NGT crackdown on diesels, especially in the NCR region, and diesels allowed to run only 10 years, it creates a mental block in the buyer that this restriction might soon apply to all States or leading Metros.

So, it's more a case of practicality than desirability. The Creta and the Seltos belong one rung down the ladder where Tata doesn't have a presence yet. Even the Alcatraz and Carens are not direct competitors.

In lighter vein, sounds like how TATA sales guys would have explained in the last quarter review :-) :-). Go back in time most Tata vehicles Start off with a bang and after some time when people figure out, sales slump.
The mould has been broken by the Nexon and other smaller cars. Will that sustain or competition will crack that as well, we will know in six months!

[discoverwild]

Originally Posted by neerajku

In lighter vein, sounds like how TATA sales guys would have explained in the last quarter review :-) :-). Go back in time most Tata vehicles Start off with a bang and after some time when people figure out, sales slump.
The mould has been broken by the Nexon and other smaller cars. Will that sustain or competition will crack that as well, we will know in six months!

You have answered it yourself. When the Nexon was launched, Tara's target was 3500 cars a month. Look at where it is today. The Tiago with the launch of the EV and CNG is close to breaching the 10k mark. The Altroz is picking up numbers where the i20 is left stuttering.

The Harrier and Safari never did 5000 individually but have been clocking that number cumulatively for many months. Doesn't make them a failure. It's an average seller. That's all. Don't you think lack of a petrol engine is hurting sales?

Out of 7 cars that Tata sells, 4 are in the top 20. Thats where the demand is and that's currently where they'll focus. That and the EV segment. It's a question of allocating resources and time.

Mahindra has a great run on their SUVs because that's their only focus. They couldn't salvage their sedan market, so opted to quit. A sane thing to do.

I'm only looking at numbers and averages. Not being a "fanboy" as is commonly mistaken. Check out my other post to know my experience with cars across the spectrum if you need.

P.S: Not a fan of the Safari and Harrier. Would have liked them if they were available in 4WD. I was one of the first to announce they would be FWD only.

[abhijet.sen]

Originally Posted by neerajku

Will that sustain or competition will crack that as well, we will know in six months!

While number for Safari + Harrier seems less it is still largely consistent and has been selling in decent numbers. These are high margin product so even at 3K+ Plus each month will keep Tata busy producing them.

I reckon that once EV version of these vehicles are launched, game might change especially if they have actual mileage of 500+ km along with AWD.

Tata has to focus more on fixing niggles and make ASS more robust to let people believe in their bigger beasts.

[viper33]

Originally Posted by neerajku

Ah, our scales are different, you are comparing only Indian owned companies, I was looking at the entire segment where Hyundai with Creta and Alcatraz, Kia with Carens and Seltos and Mahindra with Scorpio and XUV 700 sells 12-15 k vehicles each and Tata sells 3-4k of Harrier and Safari each, and sales seem to be dwindling each month. Yes some facelift is due next quarter of Safari but that usually hits sales in the preceding 1-2 months and not 8-10 months in advance. May be we read the same data differently. Their total vehicles sales and market shares have been static for more than a year now. May be new launches in every segment can explain that.
Hybrids are extremely complex technology and Mahindra worked on it for years, more than decade and then gave up. We may view talent differently, globalised or not, engineering, design, are tough skills to find in my world. Hence the view.
My guess is both Safari and Harrier will remain in the 1000 number like their predecessors which, after the initial excitement, just sank.

Sir, if you would like to be pessimistic, that is your choice. I do not like Harrier or Safari combo over XUV700 as well.

But let's get some facts right.

- It is Alcazar, not Alcatraz.
- Kia Carens is based on Sonet platform. Kia Carens is not the same as Alcazar like what Seltos is to Creta.
- Hyundai equivalent of Carens is named Stargazer and is available in SEA markets
- Creta and Seltos are Compact SUV (4.3M). Tata Curvv which is expected to launch in 2024 competes in this segment.
- Harrier is one segment above Creta and in Mid-size SUV segment (4.5+M)
- Harrier+Safari, Hector+Hector Plus, Alcazar, XUV700 + Scropio-n, Compass, and Innova/Hycross are in the same segment.
- Harrier launched in 2019, Safari in 2021. They have been in the market for a considerable amount of time. So, they have maintained 4000+ units combined in the last couple of years. This is not initial excitement. They have done with only one engine whereas competition offers multiple engines.
- Tata's share is static, not because they can not launch and sell, but because that is their maximum production capacity. Same with Mahindra, no one sits idle when you have waiting periods of 12 months. That is their manufacturing capacity and operating at max with constraints of the real world. They have acquired Ford's plant, which might increase their market share with the new launches like Curvv and Sierra
- You are forgetting that Tata owns JLR, and JLR sells Hybrids and PHEVs across the world, they do not have to learn now, they already have.
- Can you please share any reference that Mahindra worked on Hybrids and gave up? I am happy to learn more.

[autobahnjpr]

Originally Posted by Burgman_tales

No, this rather indicates that income inequality is rising with people in that segment not being able to make a jump to cars anymore. Additional data to validate this is that bike sales are also dropping.

Your statement would have been valid if % of car owners was very high in India which is not the case

But two wheeler sales are up 6.3% yoy and 2.14% month on month. So your theory does not match with the data.

[aseem23]

Originally Posted by wooka

While I am simply embarrassed that in Australia you cannot sell a car without ADAS anymore, people still buy unsafe cars in India.

In 2023, it goes to show that people just DO NOT CARE :(
Mileage, price, service. This serves the regular population, so they will do as always have done -> continue to make potentially family-altering choices.

I don't think this is a fair comparison. The average income as per the latest data in Australia is AUD90,800 (INR48.5L) vs. 14.5L in India. Australia has less population, and people have more purchasing power. In our country, where most of the population earns less money, do you think they will buy a Brezza, or i20, or Punch with ADAS? Can even an OEM offer ADAS under 10l at the moment? I think the answer is No.

i20 in the UK comes with ADAS, but it starts at 20Lakhs. The brochure is attached for reference. How many people will buy a 20Lakh+ i20 in India?

Also, I think it is very important in our country to implement traffic rules, which will reduce accidents massively. Do we see wrong-side driving, traffic light violations, and animals running around on the road in Australia? Here, it is a common site, and that too without any fine. Personally, I think safety badges though important, will be of less use unless traffic rules are properly implemented. People with 5-star safety-rated cars are also big-time traffic violators.

[Travel Bright]

Why is Lord S-Presso not selling much. One year back it was doing great numbers. Celerio doing good numbers clearly indicates production bias towards it. There is good demand for S-Presso.

[discoverwild]

Originally Posted by aseem23

I don't think this is a fair comparison. The average income as per the latest data in Australia is AUD90,800 (INR48.5L) vs. 14.5L in India. Australia has less population, and people have more purchasing power.

Off topic, but please note that if your income is above 1 lakh per month, you belong to the top 10% of this country. 90% of the population fall below that and can barely afford a car that costs half a million or more.

[antonylejos]

Originally Posted by aseem23

i20 in the UK comes with ADAS, but it starts at 20Lakhs. The brochure is attached for reference. How many people will buy a 20Lakh+ i20 in India?

You're absolutely right; in India, hardly anyone would buy a car priced at over like i20 if priced above 20 lacs.

Now, if India were to make it a rule that every car must have ADAS (Advanced Driver Assistance Systems), many people who now own cars might have decided not to have one. This is what some people in India are hoping for.

India is well-known for its inequality among its people. And now, with a large population, many who never had cars before have bought cars priced between upto 15 lakhs without ADAS. This has left the wealthier section of India feeling frustrated.

They may not realize that those who are driving cars without ADAS now might have otherwise driven a Splendor. In fact, they actually had spent more on safety than they could comfortably afford.

[Kln]

Jimny goes against the entire ethos of Maruti. It is fundamentally at a clash with Maruti's brand value of 'value for money'. Neither does it provide any traditional Maruti value, nor does it cost like a typical Maruti. Sales speak for themselves.

[neerajku]

Originally Posted by viper33

Sir, if you would like to be pessimistic, that is your choice. I do not like Harrier or Safari combo over XUV700 as well.

But let's get some facts right.

- It is Alcazar, not Alcatraz.
- Kia Carens is based on Sonet platform. Kia Carens is not the same as Alcazar like what Seltos is to Creta.
- Hyundai equivalent of Carens is named Stargazer and is available in SEA markets
- Creta and Seltos are Compact SUV (4.3M). Tata Curvv which is expected to launch in 2024 competes in this segment.
- Harrier is one segment above Creta and in Mid-size SUV segment (4.5+M)
- Harrier+Safari, Hector+Hector Plus, Alcazar, XUV700 + Scropio-n, Compass, and Innova/Hycross are in the same segment.
- Harrier launched in 2019, Safari in 2021. They have been in the market for a considerable amount of time. So, they have maintained 4000+ units combined in the last couple of years. This is not initial excitement. They have done with only one engine whereas competition offers multiple engines.
- Tata's share is static, not because they can not launch and sell, but because that is their maximum production capacity. Same with Mahindra, no one sits idle when you have waiting periods of 12 months. That is their manufacturing capacity and operating at max with constraints of the real world. They have acquired Ford's plant, which might increase their market share with the new launches like Curvv and Sierra
- You are forgetting that Tata owns JLR, and JLR sells Hybrids and PHEVs across the world, they do not have to learn now, they already have.
- Can you please share any reference that Mahindra worked on Hybrids and gave up? I am happy to learn more.

Thank you for correcting it to Alcazar, I might have landed up in a US prison if I had asked for it in a Hyundai showroom. Thanks for saving me. I really am a pessimist as I sold off Tata shares few quarters back. Should have listened to you and kept them. :-) ;-).

[neerajku]

Originally Posted by discoverwild

You have answered it yourself. When the Nexon was launched, Tara's target was 3500 cars a month. Look at where it is today. The Tiago with the launch of the EV and CNG is close to breaching the 10k mark. The Altroz is picking up numbers where the i20 is left stuttering.

The Harrier and Safari never did 5000 individually but have been clocking that number cumulatively for many months. Doesn't make them a failure. It's an average seller. That's all. Don't you think lack of a petrol engine is hurting sales?

Out of 7 cars that Tata sells, 4 are in the top 20. Thats where the demand is and that's currently where they'll focus. That and the EV segment. It's a question of allocating resources and time.

Mahindra has a great run on their SUVs because that's their only focus. They couldn't salvage their sedan market, so opted to quit. A sane thing to do.

I'm only looking at numbers and averages. Not being a "fanboy" as is commonly mistaken. Check out my other post to know my experience with cars across the spectrum if you need.

P.S: Not a fan of the Safari and Harrier. Would have liked them if they were available in 4WD. I was one of the first to announce they would be FWD only.

Wish you had also read the last line. One does not know if that momentum sustains. Most Tata cars start with bang and then land up with zero waiting period, like Safari and Harrier. The looks, claimed features and fondness for the Tata name probably does the trick. And then the initial glowing tributes. You can check the reviews of Hexa, older Safaris and so many of their other SUVs and MUVs.
Mahindra starts off with a bang but sustains the momentum, though not at the initial levels. Current crop is a big exception. Their vehicles still command a waiting time, not for the Tata SUVs.
Is it a matter of 4WD alone? Is the answer so simple and Tata marketing and sales guys cant figure out and resolve it? Wish they had access to team BHP and the experts. and that too when they have the tech for 4WD.
If it was only lack of petrol engine wonder how Mahindra selling in large numbers, priced around the same band. Same segment. Sometimes, solutions are not simple and self evident. We dont realise it.
The smaller cars have been an exception so far. Will the competition let it be or come all guns blazing, we will see, as I said the last time.

[discoverwild]

Originally Posted by neerajku

The smaller cars have been an exception so far. Will the competition let it be or come all guns blazing, we will see, as I said the last time.

Buddy, you'll have to keep waiting for that to happen. Last I know, they have been in the #3 spot for ages, even exchanging spots with #2 a couple of times. And they know the pulse of the current generation. The prime example is the Nexon and its latest avatar. 2 mini-SUVs (pseudo) in the top 10. Won't be long before there are updates on the rest too.

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. Have a nice day.

[neerajku]

Originally Posted by discoverwild

Buddy, you'll have to keep waiting for that to happen. Last I know, they have been in the #3 spot for ages, even exchanging spots with #2 a couple of times. And they know the pulse of the current generation. The prime example is the Nexon and its latest avatar. 2 mini-SUVs (pseudo) in the top 10. Won't be long before there are updates on the rest too.

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. Have a nice day.

Thanks a lot. Great day ahead for you too. Once in while do read others' post also before responding. May make responses less caustic !