[sid3091]

Originally Posted by trinity0114

While the complaints of the current Jeep owners range from rattling, weak ac and the likes the complaints from Toyota BOF vehicles in the past have been airbags not opening, poor brakes, low quality clock springs, harsh and unsettled ride and what not. Now I'd anyday be in a weak ac car rather than a car with poor brakes or whose airbags don't open. But despite all this Toyota is regarded as the epitome of reliability.

This is so true, and this shield from criticism seems to have extended to Mahindra, Hyundai and Kia as well. Their cars are riddled with rattling issues, iffy infotainment systems and breakdowns (Mahindra), but even on this people are more than happy to overlook them and point fingers at Jeep and VAG.

[Newtown]

Originally Posted by trinity0114

On a similar note has Toyota ever justified the ever increasing prices or the premium they charge for the Innova and Fortuner without the corresponding rise in the feature list or the capabilities of the said vehicles?

With you on this all the way.

But as things stand, Toyota's are known for their longevity in virtually all global markets. There is so much literature on this subject that it is insane. And just by this one virtue, I feel they are able to charge that premium and get away with it. Jeep on the other hand does not have that luxury even in their home market.

[bullitt1]

Jeep is a very well engineered car. As can happen to any manufacturer, it has its share of bad apples. When people are ready to keep aside a DSG fund preparing for the inevitable, rattles in a Jeep can be forgiven. Nothing drives like the Compass in its price bracket.

[strike909]

I am an owner of a 2011 Fiat Punto 1.3 MJD emotion Pk (Yes it is my current car) and have had a Palio in the family earlier. Considering that FCA became Stellantis who own Fiat & Opel both who shut shop in India. And currently own Jeep and Citroën both of whom have currently 04 models in the Indian market. I don’t think any one in the upper management in Stellantis has any orientation towards the Indian car buying mindset or interest in learning from competitors in our country. They will continue to try to make models developed for other markets work in India (Some definitely do for the niche buyer) not realising that probably the cars developed for Indian markets can work worldwide too. Their lack of interest and orientation, poor quality control considering they are international brands having global cars is just sad. On the other hand I applaud Mahindra and Tata for trying hard and not giving up and for Refreshing existing models as time goes by which keeps the Indian buyer interested and instills confidence in the brand. Having driven the length and breadth country in my Punto from Chabua in the East to Porbandar in the west & Leh in the North to Kanyakumari in the South I feel sad for owners like me who bought into a Great brand with some good cars but with apparently uninterested management. I will not be buying a Stellantis car as my next car. They just don’t get us.

[Starwar19]

Originally Posted by Air Cav

I have had my share of ownership niggles but the truth is that no American or European manufacturers match the statistical reliability, QC and management of the Japs, wether yesterday or today, and anywhere in the world. A handful of extremely unfortunate owners apart (with major issues that crop up in all brands, some less, some a little more) I am yet to meet a Compass owner who is actually dissatisfied with his ride.
i have written this for the simple reason of the continuous negativity that is prevalent about the Jeep brand now. I own one and its damn good and worth the money I paid. I dont want that to be drowned by impressions and opinions of people who dont even own one and quote figures and comparisons for the sake of argument. If its me who has put in his hard earned money into one and am happy that I did like 98 out of 100 owners, I fail to see the reason for the anxiety.

Meet me! I have had the all possible worst experiences. I own a Jeep Meridian. You have mentioned about the Quality Control, I would rather call it the poorest amongst any Automotive brand. Right from the PDI, the Jeep has let down. My car has visited workshop 10 times in 4 months. I own a Top end Meridian, read the Meridian thread and you will find 98 complaining owners out of 100. By this i really mean the Genuine owners. Apart from couple of Meridians, there are people who want to sell it off and get rid of it.
The incomptetent staff at workshop and useless management at Stellantis adds up as a Cherry on a Cake.
I'm also attached to my Car emotional though it has series of Problems, but my love won't ever come in between the genuine advice I will give to other potential buyers.
I have seen few people like you who are very happy with their Cars but there is a majority who complain.
What is the use if a Brand doesn't listen to its Customers. I will never compare it with Creta or even XUV 700 because I know the league it sits in, but its very important to have a niggle free car or atleast the company should solve it for you in Single Visit.

Would you believe, in 4 months they have swapped all four doors of my car including the whole assembly, still the problem persists. Would you still be able to focus on its good part and driveability?

Jeep will soon shut down its shop.

I would write it in Bold letters, "A GREAT PRODUCT WITH POOR SERVICE/MANAGEMENT KILLS ITSELF RAPIDLY OVER AN AVERAGE PRODUCT WITH GREAT SERVICE"

PERIOD!

[Air Cav]

Since videos have been shared and the Trailhawk version has been mentioned let us cut a bit more ice. Most will agree that most mainstream review channels have biases and preferences of vehicles and brands based on various concerns of TRP, popularity, business and fundings. That is why I prefer credible and quality user reviews that are way more objective, practical, critical and detailed.

Since off road credibility of a Compass is often questioned, honestly it is way more than what is generally found in mudplugging videos because most owners dont take their Compasses to a mudplugging contests. Reason is simple. As I have stated before, it is no mudplugger in comparison to say a Thar or a Gypsy or a Gurkha.

Honestly (as stated in previous post) as a guy who has driven extensively for, as a way and need of life, rather than for competitions or hobby, in unimaginable terrain most of the videos look actually outright funny. I had mentioned that the cars I have driven are majorly Gypsies, MM540, a few Scorpios and Safari Storm. I had mentioned these vehicles because they are the vehicles that members of this forum drive or have access to.

If one wants actual Xcountry mudplugging, dune crossings and river fordings then one needs a bit more. Have been fortunate to try some real deals in the vehicles which will be unfamiliar to most an old Russian Kraz 6x6 Gun Tower, a Scania 6x6 Field Artillery Tractor and 6x6 Tatra HMvs (High Mobility vehicles). Am sharing images below off the internet of the same for a perspective. These vehicles will make you feel as if you are on a wheeled hovercraft (if there was any) when the going really gets rough and will possibly take you a quarter of a way to the South Pole should you push it. They are as close one can get to churn the terrain into submission on a wheeled vehicle. Tracked ones are a different matter.

Most of the offroad videos in India are of vehicles like Thar, Endy, Fortuner, Gurkha, Gypsy, Isuzu etc. One thing noticable in most videos is that they are fairly to extensively modified to hit the rough. They do pretty well if impracticle and unusable stuff for the fun of it and thats nice. A rare stock Compass among them now and then apparently dosent cut much ice. But as I had mentioned before the focus of the Compass is elsewhere rather than deliberately doing such stuff. So here I share a few videos of a sensible, practicle and sedate owner of a Compass Trailhawk "Overland Artist". The mods are modest at a 4 inch lift kit, 235/65 R17 tyres and a K&N filter. Check it out as to what a Compass Trailhawk can do in the hands of a guy who knows what he is actually doing. Guess it may justify (though it requires none) what I have mentioned previously about the Compass and how it might surprise one if he knows the what and how of it and that it is capable enough to take you more places than most would ever need or will be comfortable with should you choose to bash on regardless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4CBeNr0zCA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWZjfoEV6lM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U5StrJzJtM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLYqQy50_JQ&t=118s

Originally Posted by Starwar19

Meet me! I have had the all possible worst experiences. I own a Jeep Meridian. You have mentioned about the Quality Control, I would rather call it the poorest amongst any Automotive brand. Right from the PDI, the Jeep has let down. My car has visited workshop 10 times in 4 months.
…

Hi. Really sorry to hear about you ordeal. It sure hurts real bad. I have mentioned that QC could surely be better. Have you contacted anyone in the Higher Management of FCA/Stellantis ?


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[Starwar19]

Originally Posted by Air Cav

Have you contacted anyone in the Higher Management of FCA/Stellantis ?

I’m really glad that you are having the time of your life with your Compass. I say to my fellow Bhpians who are happy with a Jeep, that I envy you.

I really would suggest you to please take some time out and checkout the Meridian thread here on TeamBhp. You will meet lots of unfortunate owners and this might come as a surprise to you.
The reliability is nightmare. When you put in so much of hard earned money, you deserve quality service, if not product. There are so many people complaining about the reliability and rattles. I recently have come to a conclusion that Jeep and rattles are best friends for Life! No one can tear them apart.

Good points mentioned by you, I would like to highlight the worst ones:-

1) Pathetic gearbox:- The gearbox calibration is the worst and it feels in confused state when there is harsh braking. The car revs on it own just like we down shift a manual from 5th gear to 3rd. Having a Fiat engine, this is absolutely not acceptable.

The cars that borrow this engine have far better tuning of the gearbox (Harrier, Hector, Safari). Don’t you feel this is a shame?

2) Same engine available at 2/3rd cost:- Harrier, Hector, Safari. I use my Meridian regularly, though the engine is same the tuning is different but it feels underpowered. Sudden overtakes have to be planned very carefully.

3) Rattles:- A lot has been said already and let this Con rest in peace!

4) Workshop and after sales support:- I cannot tell you how much money, energy, patience and emotional trauma I have invested and gone through because of their incompetent staff. I wish I would have been on the other side of the table.

I have escalated the issue with FCA through their standard complaint process. To be honest they are very casual, carefree and slow to respond. They haven’t communicated any substantial information after inspecting the car for 3 days in their workshop.

They are just responding that they are working on my complaint and issue! It’s been 10 days since I initiated the communication.

I haven’t taken it up with the higher management or haven’t posted on the social media. I’m still very positive and giving them countless chances just because I love my car. I want to connect with my car and leave this fuss and series of problems behind just like forgetting the past and starting my marriage peacefully.

[civic-sense]

Why compare the Compass with Seltos and Creta? Compare it to the Tucson.

In the USA, Jeep prices the Compass between 28-36K while Hyundai prices the Tucson between 26-36K. In India the Compass is priced between 22-32L ex while the Tucson is priced between 28-36L ex.

[pqr]

Price hike prognosis

Let me try to explain in the simplest way why such price hikes usually come. In mass production, volume and fixed costs play a key role in profitability. For further reading on fixed and variable costs, please refer to the link.

Every new generation of cars is treated as a separate project as it has a finite timeline, and the generation’s timeline is referred to as the product life cycle (PLC). Usually, PLC in India could vary as 3+3 or 4+2 or 4+3 years, etc., which include big milestones like a facelift and several other changes.

Illustration: Jeep Compass project planning

Now let’s take the Jeep Compass example over here.

• In its initial days, it was doing over 2,000 units in a month.
• Ideally, over the PLC, volume would increase as India and particularly SUVs are high-growth segments.
• However, there will be aging, which will progressively reduce volume until a facelift comes and the cycle repeats.
• A highly updated product with model year (MY) changes and a competent product may defy this logic.
• To keep things simple, let us assume Jeep plans to sell 2,190 units every month in the entire PLC.
• Average revenue per car, after parting taxes and dealer margin is ₹ 16L, based on variant mix.
• Every year, prices will go up based on input cost inflation, which will be different from the Central Bank's (RBI) reference index as the basket of goods and services in the index varies for manufacturing companies.
• Here we will assume variable cost and fixed cost to be 80% and 10%, respectively, for illustration purposes only. This is more or less in line with the PV industry in India.
• This way, net profit will come out to be 10%.
• Based on the NPV or IRR financial evaluation method, the project may get a green signal.

Illustration : Jeep Compass project progress

Now, let us simulate the current scenario by putting in the real volume data as the project progressed during PLC.

• Here, the fixed cost has been kept constant.
• In real life, fixed costs also come down in blocks, and variable costs per unit, which are supposed to remain constant, usually go up as volume declines, as manufacturers have to compensate suppliers for volume loss and any additional discount that isn’t provisioned at the start of the project.
• As volume drops, fixed costs eat into margin, thus the product starts bleeding financially.
• Here, the finance department would ask to increase prices to reduce losses, as cost control might not be possible.
• If the sales department agrees, then a vicious cycle will start: a price hike without a commensurate increase in value will lead to a further drop in sales due to the price elasticity of demand.
• If brands offer discounts to contain volume drops, then losses will widen, and gaining volume on the back of the discount will impact brand image.

Way out:

• Get things right the first time!
• If not, act quickly on market feedback.
• Have a wide product portfolio with a staggered PLC. The planned volume for the Hyundai Alcazar was 5,000 units; however, it has hovered around 2,000 units since launch, might be making losses, but Hyundai has a larger product portfolio with a staggered PLC to keep overall financials in a more steady state.
• Last but not least, write off all the losses on the global balance sheet and leave the Indian market, like GM, Fiat, or Ford.

Take away:

• Assuming a higher-priced car must be making money even with less volume may not always be true, without knowing the planned volume and cost structure.
• Moderators - For better future analysis of any product, while attending the media drive, please ask for planned volume from the organizers, as, at that time you may have access to top officials, including the CEO, sales head, marketing head, product planning head, and PR head.

Note: This post contains several assumptions and is only meant as an illustration. In actual business, this activity is carried out in great detail and in accordance with many financial theories.

[i74js]

I have known a senior official of the white body maker / stamping company for Jeep and at the time of Compass planning, the agreed volume was 1000+ stamped white bodies per month.

You are right. Jeep will have to bring in a product at the original launch price of Jeep Compass to stay relevant in the market.

If one looks at Honda Civic, PLC in the 2nd avatar was unmanageable for Honda in India and it resulted into discontinuation, what they did instead, moved City in Civic territory and introduced Amaze at the entry level City, now after facelift, Amaze has replaced both the hatchback (WRV and Jazz) as well as entry level City. Once you are inside the present Amaze, it is difficult to tell that it’s not City. The next generation Amaze is being tested and will be available from early 2024. Elevate will further add to the product portfolio from the coming festive season.

Though there are limited vehicles in Honda India portfolio, the company is recording profits. Jeep on the other hand is struggling because of their lackluster interest in Indian market.

I am a Fiat owner and I still remember the arrogance at their workshop and it use to read “we now have 100 workshops pan India, 99 more than you need”.

[UD17]

Very nice analysis. Thanks for the efforts.

What i see for FCA India, if we add revenue/Profit from:

- Engine selling (~5000 Nos per month- Tata/MG)
- Spare parts (are expensive) selling by Mopar
- Revenue/Profit from Export (cars and Components)

The final number would be still big positive.

Stellantis is in double whammy: Price hike- sale revenue improve- volume drop (revenue drop) - spare parts business drop, Price cut- sales revenue loss - volume increase (revenue gain)- spare part business boost in future

[cherub]

Originally Posted by i74js

Though there are limited vehicles in Honda India portfolio, the company is recording profits. Jeep on the other hand is struggling because of their lackluster interest in Indian market.

Honda is recording profits by selling low quality cars without any real warranty. Similar to what Mercedes did to boost profits a few decades earlier.

[maximus_fiat]

Even though their car sells less, they must be earning profits through engine sales, export, spare parts and so on. As long as the balance sheet stays green, the management is content with what they have.

Buying a Jeep is a head vs heart decision where mostly head wins. Other competitors have started plonking so much stuff at a price point that Jeep looses out. With their wafer thin network one does not get the confidence. With this price hike, many fence sitters will opt out of buying it.

They seriously need a compact SUV at an attractive price. I was quite hopeful of Renegade coming to India but that seems like a distant dream.

[yashg]

Originally Posted by maximus_fiat

Buying a Jeep is a head vs heart decision where mostly head wins.

If someone buys a Jeep, it's purely a heart decision. If one uses head, they won't buy the Jeep. I bought a Compass. Totally irrational decision. Not that I regret buying it. I am loving this beast of a car and the driving experience.

But you are right, for most people head wins and that is showing in Jeep's dwindling sales numbers month over month.

[i74js]

Originally Posted by cherub

Honda is recording profits by selling low quality cars without any real warranty. Similar to what Mercedes did to boost profits a few decades earlier.

I believe we are doing financial modeling and not setting a narrative on product quality in terms of "made to cost" or otherwise, that can be handled by Honda owners as I have never purchased / owned a Honda.

Honda is able to ensure that the City remains relevant when a car buyer in C2 segment is in the market. Compass on the other hand is loosing out in D1 segment.

In case Honda has followed the footsteps of Mercedes, they will have to fix it the way Mercedes has done / is attempting.

Market / buyers will ensure that poor ownership experience hits the manufacturer hard; word of mouth can pull down anyone. JEEP is also facing challanges of poor ownership, let alone the price hike. Current owners of JEEP are not recommanding it in majority of the cases, clearling indicating loss of brand equity.