[DicKy]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

Tata Motors today opposed the plan to suggest subsidies for hybrid vehicles. In a statement their president Shailesh Chandra vehemently opposed subsidies for hybrid vehicles sighting derailment in the proposed net-zero carbon plan by 2030 as the plan to deploy EVs may get derailed due to the proposed subsidy.

Why is TATA worried over hybrids getting subsidy? It is not as if the subsidies given to EVs are taken away and given to hybrids.

This just screams as "We are not able to develop hybrid tech from scratch. It is easier to import some batteries and motors. We are already giving CNG and near future GDI for people who can't yet afford EVs. Don't want any others to benefit from some subsidies that we can't enjoy. Bohoo!!! "

And taking the high ground of possibility of derailment in the proposed net-zero carbon plan by 2030. If they really want to have net-zero carbon emission they should be supporting any tech that emits less, not just the ones they have.

[DRPSREDDY]

There is an interesting update about Hybrids.

Union Transport Minister Nitin Gadkari has started running behind Hybrids. He emphasised that Hybrids need tax cuts and proposed subsidy for hybrids at 12%. I don't think it is a good move after pitching so much on electrics and having made a huge investment and more than 10 thousand charging stations built, I think it's a foolish move to change his stance. The entire movement may collapse and huge investment made may go down the drain. I feel that Hybrids gained traction because of Toyota-Maruti push else if it was either Hyundai, VW or TATA, it would not have such adoption.

I think that there are many more options coming out including Hydrogen and Flex fuel, and Gadkari should have backed them than Hybrids.


https://www.motorbeam.com/nitin-gadk...to-12-percent/

[Carma2017]

Everybody lobbies. That is a fact of the business world. Sometimes, one party has their way and sometimes the other. There is no need for a brouhaha in either case.

In any case, this is just a proposal from Mr.Gadkari, not a certainty. Also, rules regarding hybrids have to be clarified so that mild hybrids (even the 48V ones) do not sneak through.

To be fair to Mr Gadkari, he had never publicly called EVs as the sole saviour of 4 wheelers. He had always pushed for flex fuel and Hydrogen powered vehicles. The intent is clear. Reduce dependency on exports. If environment improves, good. If not, then at least save money.

[TorqueIndia]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

There is an interesting update about Hybrids.

Toyota should fight this move with tooth and nail, this will directly affect the resale value of 80K hybrid units already sold.
Since one of the main USP of Toyota is resale value and scheduled price hikes, reducing the on road price by 7-10L will affect the trust invested by the initial customers who jumped into Toyotas self charging EVs campaign on blind trust.

[wocanak]

Originally Posted by Carma2017

To be fair to Mr Gadkari, he had never publicly called EVs as the sole saviour of 4 wheelers. He had always pushed for flex fuel and Hydrogen powered vehicles. The intent is clear. Reduce dependency on exports. If environment improves, good. If not, then at least save money.

Not true, he declared target of 100% EV by 2030 in 2017. Walked back on it after few years, rumored to be due to Maruti/Suzuki+Toyota lobbying. (An aside, people in the industry say Japanese govt. pushed Toyota and Suzuki to collaborate, resulting in deal where Suzuki lobbies in India to favour Toyota and in return Toyota will sell rebadged Suzukis)

Car makers have shown that they will game the system by doing as little as possible to be eligible for the lower tax, not caring about really lowering the emissions. If we have to bring this back in, it should be tied to tail pipe emissions and independent of technology, say 5% for zero emission and all the way up to 43% for emission just meeting ICE norms (based on ARAI testing under standard conditions). Even this will be gamed, but not as badly.

This way Hydrogen cars will get the same 5% as EVs and hybrids in proportion to the actual reduction in tail pipe emission, taking care of all fake/mild/weak/strong hybrid variants.

[volkman10]

If at all Hybrid taxation is tweaked(to 12%), here are the expected corrections to the ex-showroom pricing.

[coldice4u]

I can imagine the kind of havoc that such relatively adhoc decisions can have on the long term plans of other automobile companies. Imagine companies like Tata, M&M getting completely blindsided after putting in significant investments in alternative technologies.

I think such tax cuts should be gradual and also announced well in advance.

[DRPSREDDY]

Originally Posted by coldice4u

I can imagine the kind of havoc that such relatively adhoc decisions can have on the long term plans of other automobile companies. Imagine companies like Tata, M&M getting completely blindsided after putting in significant investments in alternative technologies.

I think such tax cuts should be gradual and also announced well in advance.

Tax cuts on Hybrids are uncalled for as they are stop-gap arrangements till government fully shifts to alternative technologies like Electric, Flex-fuel, Hydrogen, et al.

There is no necessity as they are categorised as polluting vehicles.

[Carma2017]

It is so easy to blame Suzuki and Toyota for the hybrid tax cuts, if they really do happen. The EV game is being played reluctantly by the entire Japanese Auto industry including Nissan, Honda, etc. Why blame only Suzuki and Toyota?

The Koreans have a very balanced game where they invest in Hydrogen, Hybrids and EVs depending on the market. Asia (excluding China) is a developing market where purchasing power is low. Hence it is easy to understand why EVs have not been able to make a severe dent.Hence, they sell EVs in US and Europe and Hybrids and IC Engines elsewhere demand exists.

China, has by policy made EVs a must because their non EV cars could never hope to compete with the mainstream competition. So, the market had to be changed and the Government played a huge role in promoting EV research and capturing Lithium facilities by hook or by crook to set up a viable ecosystem and this took 10-15 years. So, today they lead. TATA has simply taken a leaf from the same book and is using EVs and NCAP as differentiators and game changers. Quality, while not up to the mark, will catch up hopefully. Fair game to them.

I am completely anti Subsidy. Why should a tax cut be given on a 20L rupee vehicle, be it a hybrid or an EV? Tax cuts should be eliminated (or reduced) for all vehicles above a certain price, say 12L or 15L. If somebody can afford to pay 15+ Lac for a vehicle, they may well pay a little bit more (relatively).

[Bhodrolok]

Interesting! Do we have a view of the amount of electoral bonds that MS and TKM have purchased over the last few years?

That might shed some light on this ridiculous taxation proposal.

[sharathkamath04]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

Tax cuts on Hybrids are uncalled for as they are stop-gap arrangements till government fully shifts to alternative technologies like Electric, Flex-fuel, Hydrogen, et al.

There is no necessity as they are categorised as polluting vehicles.

I guess EVs will still be a big shareholder and TM and MnM must still go ahead with EV-only policy.

Hybrids have an inherent flaw, double the maintenance with fewer benefits in terms of FE. The price per km for an EV can be ~1rs/km and for petrol ~8rs/km. Hybrid can get it down to maybe 5rs/km (identical to diesel).

And Hybrids also cost pretty much close to BEVs.

With EVs getting better and cheaper, I am sure Hybrids will be only for folks who are scared by EVs.

[Sahil]

I think it is a welcome move and hope the hybrid tax are cut. Infact, I hope states further support it by reducing the RTO tax on them too.

The market in the west has spoken loud and clear that they have tried and tested EVs but they do not accept them fully especially as their primary car. The charging infrastructure there is way better yet customers do not want EVs and the sales drops are showing clear signs of it. Beyond a point you cannot push things down customers throats, they have spoken and the verdict is out.

I think there can be a world that exists with EVs, Super Strong Hybrids and Flex fuels together.
Gadkari is wise to change his stance with changing times and seeing the trends nationally and internationally.

After the red carpet rolled out for Tesla, the govt needs to do something for existing players and this could be a good way to please them. However, I am not sure if this can be announced now or only post elections?

[TorqueIndia]

Originally Posted by volkman10

If at all Hybrid taxation is tweaked(to 12%), here are the expected corrections to the ex-showroom pricing.
Attachment 2585558

What ET is quoting is much more than just 12% GST and 15% CESS.
ET claims straight 21% cut from current 43%. That's massive and will result in 6-7L price cut on HYCROSS ZXO ex.showroom prices or around 8-10L on road prices from the 38L in many cities.

IMO all prospective customers should halt their hybrid deliveries till Toyota clarifies on compensation for current owners atleast from March 2024, on this massive depreciation of about 25% overnight especially at those exorbitant overall costs.

[volkman10]

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

----

IMO all prospective customers should halt their hybrid deliveries till Toyota clarifies on compensation for current owners atleast from March 2024, on this massive depreciation of about 25% overnight especially at those exorbitant overall costs.

This reduction is just a proposal and would most likely be tabled in the tenure of the next government.

[rajshenoy]

I wouldn’t be surprised if the tax reduction proposal will come with a price cap, say only for cars costing 10-15 lakhs

None of our hybrids are selling in this price range, and this might encourage auto makers to bring more affordable hybrids to our shores.

Personally I am waiting for hycross so I am hoping for a good tax reduction while I am waiting in the queue.