[ellip5i5]

Is a CNG plug in hybrid not possible? For heavier vehicle uses and as a diesel replacement, a cleaner source with hybrid system be more beneficial

[uditanshh]

Originally Posted by dazdandconfuzd

For the longest time, I'd been of the opinion that EVs were the way to go, and that hybrids wouldn't work in India due to the added complexity and cost. But with the launch of cars like the City Hybrid and the Suzuki-Toyota twins, my opinion slowly started shifting.

Basically, EVs are more efficient in the city and ICE vehicles are more efficient at highway speeds.

I'm estimating this will (on average) cost somewhere in between that of a regular hybrid and an EV in the same ballpark, which is a small price to pay for the best of both worlds.

Only of the most ignored factors during the ICE vs. EV vs. HYBRID debate is that to most indian buyers, RESALE VALUE of the used vehicle matters too! I know it matters to me atleast. 8 years down the line, the ICE would fetch decent resale value, and theoretically so would the HYBRID (since it would cost less to replace smaller battery). However, the EVs would have huge battery replacement costs that might be a DEAL BREAKER.

I totally agree that HYBRIDS provide the best of both worlds. They provide great fuel economy and power while also helping the environment!

[ferrarirules]

I don't see any of the other car manufacturers - Tata or Mahindra or VW/Skoda or Hyundai/Kia investing in hybrid implementation in India in the coming years. Even Honda is rethinking about its future roadmap (they didn't launch hybrid in Elevate).

The reasons are as follows

1. Toyota didn't implement this tech today. They have been running it in developed nations for last 20+ years. They implemented it in India as they didn't choose to invest in implementation of BS6.1 and 6.2 diesel engines. Their JV partner/shareholder -Maruti also decided to not invest in BS6 diesel research.
Simply put - It was easier for them to implement hybrids than implement BS6 diesel (Innova was the only exception). Goal achieved was the same as diesel cars - higher mileage at a premium price over petrol car.

2. Hybrids are already a thing of the past in the developed world. People have started moving to plug in hybrids in developed nations. Plug in hybrids have double the mileage of normal hybrids.

3. There is a huge cost involved in implementing hybrid tech from scratch. The cost come from research, testing, part localization, teething issues and much more. This will detest players like Tata and Mahindra to not invest in the same.

4. When govt was interested in subsidizing hybrid tech in India. Maruti and Mahindra misused the subsidy by selling fake hybrids. They ruined hybrids for India. What it resulted in, govt taxed hybrids to the highest tax rate.

In addition to the above facts, It can be said that hybrid as a technology is around 13-15 years late in this country. The delay can be attributed to India's obsession with diesel. The mileage variation and govt subsidizing diesel prices over petrol prices kept diesel cars relevant for people with longer daily runs.

Conclusion - The choices of powertrain were made when the BS6 implementation was to happen. Tata, Mahindra, Hyundai/Kia chose BS6 diesel as a stop gap to electric cars. Toyota and Maruti chose hybrid to be the stop gap to electric cars. Electric cars are present and the future for the world. And for the first time, Indian manufacturers are mass implementing a technology at the same time as the rest of the world rather than waiting for 20+ years for mass market implementation

[saikishor]

I doubt if Tata and Mahindra have the expertise to develop a properly functioning hybrid powertrain. These companies have no prior experience in making a hybrid and I doubt if they are really interested in spending the time, effort and money in developing one. Those who want pure performance would go for a turbo petrol and those who want good efficiency will simply opt for a diesel.

Thinking about a hybrid from Tata and Mahindra for their models like Safari and Scorpio-N sounds delicious to me. But the companies will simply not invest their resources in making one. These companies have the future in mind and are betting big on EV's( I'm no fan of EV's but it is what it is). And it does make sense, why waste your efforts on something that will hardly last for 6-7 years when you have something which will give you profits in the long run? Pretty self explanatory, I guess.

[aadiaksh]

As an owner of hybrid hyryder and hybrid Innova, I feel hybrids are they way to go for the next 5-7 years till battery tech and charging infra grows. Indian hot and humid conditions are testing bed for EV tech and the results will be seen in the next 3-4 years with regards to how much battery degradation happens in these conditions.

Hybrids compromise on the driving pleasure but are excellent otherwise. Mileage claimed by companies for their hybrids are a long way off. Hyryder mixed driving as you would an ICE car gives 19-21 KMPL as opposed to 27 as claimed. Hycross gives 15-16 instead of 23 as claimed.

Hybrid longivity is equivalent to that of an ICE car.

[blueather]

Originally Posted by shortbread

This argument completely discounts the fact that EVs continue to get better and by 2030 will provide much higher range, get cheaper and more importantly provide a far better driving experience. Just look at the growth of EVs in China and the US. Hybrids are simply out of the picture.

Agree with everything except the "getting cheaper" part.
I highly doubt EV prices are getting any lower especially ones with good range.
I think the cheapest EVs with real world range of 400 kms will cost 18 lakhs minimum if battery technology gets better.

And hybrid cars like Civic, Prius, City and Accord bombed in India because they were priced outrageously. Accord and Prius for 50 lakhs? Sounds like a bad joke.
Whereas GV and Hyryder hybrid are selling in decent numbers. I swear I haven't seen a single smart hybrid GV in Lucknow.

Wish Hyundai and Nissan bring their hybrid offerings to India ASAP. Sonata and Qashqai hybrids are such a decent package.

[PreludeSH]

I think only those that already have hybrids (which is every multinational car maker!) can take the risk of bringing them to India. Its not going to be easy for others to develop them now. The payback time might not be very long.
They might find it easy to go after EVs and keep diesels until they do.

[sprashanth1982]

Incentivising hybrids will defeat EV objective: Tata Motors’ MD

Incentivising hybrids will defeat EV objective: Tata Motors’ MD

Chandra’s comments come in the background of aggressive lobbying by a clutch of carmakers including Toyota Kirloskar, Maruti Suzuki and Honda Cars with policy makers for reduction in taxes on vehicles using hybrid technology.

Extending incentives and tax benefits created specifically for electric vehicles (EV) to hybrid models will defeat the main objective of promoting emission-free EVs, Shailesh Chandra, managing director, Tata Motors Passenger Vehicles and Tata Passenger Electric Mobility told Fe.

Chandra’s comments come in the background of aggressive lobbying by a clutch of carmakers including Toyota Kirloskar, Maruti Suzuki and Honda Cars with policy makers for reduction in taxes on vehicles using hybrid technology.

Maruti Suzuki, the country’s largest carmaker who is yet to introduce its first EV, said that hybrid as a concept is catching on. It further claimed that the period between September to November this year, hybrids outsold EVs. Little over 24,000 units of hybrid models were sold during the period as against almost 21,500 units of EVs.

“The (sales) comparison (between EV and hybrid) is possibly done to shift the attention to hybrid to get the same benefit as what EVs get of the progressive policies of the government. This would be very strange because the whole intent of the policy primarily is for the net carbon zero commitment, as a hybrid (vehicle) still emits (particulate matter) PM 2.5,” added Chandra.

A hybrid car uses two individual sources of power – a petrol engine and a battery pack – for propulsion. While there are just two plug-in hybrid models in India (both priced above Rs 1.25 crore), all other hybrid vehicles in the country use the fossil fuel-powered engine under the hood to recharge their batteries. Plug-in technology uses grid electricity for charging the batteries.

Maruti Suzuki Grand Vitara and Invicto, Toyota Hycross, Urban Cruiser Hyryder and Camry, Honda City Hybrid, Mercedes S-Class and GLE, BMW XM, Lexus ES, Volvo XC60, Audi A8L are some of the several hybrid cars available in India.

“The objectives of the EV policy is not getting served by hybrids. If this whole movement is towards attracting the policy attention towards hybrids, it does not meet any of the objectives,” Chandra added.

The government has rolled out a variety of schemes to promote the adoption of EVs. This includes the reduced goods and services (GST) of 5%, direct subsidy under the Faster Adoption and Manufacturing of Electric and hybrid vehicles (FAME), tax savings on interest paid on loan availed for buying an EV and production linked incentive (PLI) scheme for batteries.

Hybrid vehicles, however, are taxed on par with petrol and diesel-powered vehicles, that is 28% and 15% compensation cess, bringing the total to 43%. No cess is applied on small cars powered by hybrid technology.

While Tata Motors believes that it does not see the need to have hybrids in its portfolio, Mumbai-based Mahindra & Mahindra announced a change in its stance on hybrids. The SUV-specialist who is strongly pursuing EV technology, stated in November that it can explore hybrid technology at an ‘appropriate time’.

[DRPSREDDY]

Originally Posted by sprashanth1982

Incentivising hybrids will defeat EV objective: Tata Motors’ MD

Incentivising hybrids will defeat EV objective: Tata Motors’ MD

Chandra’s comments come in the background of aggressive lobbying by a clutch of carmakers including Toyota Kirloskar, Maruti Suzuki and Honda Cars with policy makers for reduction in taxes on vehicles using hybrid technology.

Extending incentives and tax benefits created specifically for electric vehicles (EV) to hybrid models will defeat the main objective of promoting emission-free EVs, Shailesh Chandra, managing director, Tata Motors Passenger Vehicles and Tata Passenger Electric Mobility told Fe.

Maruti Suzuki, the country’s largest carmaker who is yet to introduce its first EV, said that hybrid as a concept is catching on. It further claimed that the period between September to November this year, hybrids outsold EVs. Little over 24,000 units of hybrid models were sold during the period as against almost 21,500 units of EVs.

This calculation I feel is absurd. Because Tata Passenger division is smaller and less popular compared to the Behemoth Maruti and popular Toyota. When to giants develop a Hybrid, acceptance is expected, where as people are apprehensive on Tata. So, naturally, uptake of cars will be higher due to the brand. If they launch EVs, then sales will soar through the roof. All the Japanese brands are slow and reluctant to adapt EVs as they don't have the infrastructure support and they cannot scale up as much as Tata as the later has got ecosystem through it's sister companies like Tata Power.

Originally Posted by sprashanth1982

While Tata Motors believes that it does not see the need to have hybrids in its portfolio, Mumbai-based Mahindra & Mahindra announced a change in its stance on hybrids. The SUV-specialist who is strongly pursuing EV technology, stated in November that it can explore hybrid technology at an ‘appropriate time’.

Tata on the other hand has built an ecosystem around EVs and can easily build up on it. Why should they invest in a new technology from scratch as everyone believes that Hybrid is just a stop-gap arrangement. We really can't predict which of the technologies will actually survive and should see the current scenario as a 'Technology cross road'.

Even the much Perceived Hydrogen tech is complicated and not very green as thought, because extraction of Hydrogen, though abundantly available, is not easy. It is expensive and engines require precious metal like Iridium and Platinum that is not abundant.

So for the moment bet is on ICE vs EV, and in EV, it's Lithium, Manganese, Aluminium, Solid state, Sodium, etc., for which development works are in full swing. So it is fast evolving and highly speculative for the moment.

[pgsagar]

I don't see the point of Hybrid cars. You maintain engine and mechanicals in ICE car and you maintain battery pack and control systems in EVs. You end up maintaining both engine, mechanicals and battery pack, control systems in a hybrid. IMO, it's better to buy an ICE car and save a few lakhs and hassles. Also, they are completely fun-less. Have driven Prius in U.S., GV Hybrid, Toyota Hycross and City Hybrid. None of them were fun to drive. Of the three, City Hybrid felt a shade better.

We should have cost analysis on additional lakhs invested on hybrid vis-a-vis incremental mileage gains. Just as we have tons of them on EV versus ICE, where it is invariably shown that ICE are better than EVs.

[Raghuwire]

Originally Posted by dazdandconfuzd

Kochi costs upward of a crore I heard. And for something like that to be available in abundance like fuel pumps will be a very costly affair! Hopefully the costs go down.

Not true at all, we operate a 160kwh ccs 2 charger for charging our Commercial vehicles. It costed around 18 lakhs. Now it costs around 12 lakhs. (Setting up transformer etc is additional).

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

This may sound tangential but no discussion on popularity of future EV tech can be complete without solving the problem of sustenance of electric power generation and battery material . If you need to replace 300+ million vehicles (as of current) with at least 50 % EV, the demand on electricity is not possible to be met without burning fossil fuel.

Anything humans touch or use, cause pollution. But which has lesser effect, is the question. In your case, the answer is grid emission factor. Which is currently ~ 2.71kgs CO2/kWh. At this rate electric vehicles are 14% approx greener. It is estimated to go down even further in next few years. But even if it does not, we are still better off!

Originally Posted by uditanshh

Only of the most ignored factors during the ICE vs. EV vs. HYBRID debate is that to most indian buyers, RESALE VALUE of the used vehicle matters too!

It all depends on government norms. Diesel vehicles are worthless in NCR post 10 years. Same may happen to petrol or hybrid with say 15 years old later. With EV we know the lifecycle and if usage is higher , we can use new battery packs to extend the lifetime of vehicle. Example Bluesmart uses three battery packs in the lifetime of its Tata Tigor EV. In CV already OEMs are signing battery replacement post battery life

[dazdandconfuzd]

Originally Posted by Raghuwire

Not true at all, we operate a 160kwh ccs 2 charger for charging our Commercial vehicles. It costed around 18 lakhs. Now it costs around 12 lakhs. (Setting up transformer etc is additional).

Actually the one at Kia Cochin is 240kWh. It was the fastest DC charger in the country when it launched and I think it still is. They set it up around the time the EV6 launched. With increased adoption, I'm sure the prices will slowly come down.

[Raghuwire]

Originally Posted by dazdandconfuzd

Actually the one at Kia Cochin is 240kWh. It was the fastest DC charger in the country when it launched and I think it still is. They set it up around the time the EV6 launched. With increased adoption, I'm sure the prices will slowly come down.

Does not matter much. These chargers(atleast the ones we use) come in modules of 20 kwh. So currently we are using at 120. In fact we have dual gun option where we have a 240 setup which will charge each vehicle at 120kw/hr.

So, I would expect that in time the standards would be set and we won't have much issue with chargers or speed. The bottle neck would be our gross and their capacity to adjust to changing patterns. Imagine, one day all cars are charging in Bangalore, suddenly a long weekend and all charging is happening on Highway! Not sure how we will accommodate that!

[discoverwild]

Originally Posted by Raghuwire

Imagine, one day all cars are charging in Bangalore, suddenly a long weekend and all charging is happening on Highway! Not sure how we will accommodate that!

Currently, we have get-togethers, parties, even weddings at Silk Board, Whitefield, Hebbal Flyover and other important traffic junctions. All these will then move to such charging stations and the roads will be free!

[DRPSREDDY]

Tata Motors today opposed the plan to suggest subsidies for hybrid vehicles. In a statement their president Shailesh Chandra vehemently opposed subsidies for hybrid vehicles sighting derailment in the proposed net-zero carbon plan by 2030 as the plan to deploy EVs may get derailed due to the proposed subsidy.

https://www.livemint.com/auto-news/t...509294059.html