[Cresterk]

Originally Posted by SiddharthR

For example - 2011-12 F10 BMW 5 series Petrol single owner with ~50k kms is available in the range of 6L to 7L in Delhi

80% of those cars are either accidental, flooded or have their odos rolled back. If it is a car with a legit odometer but it is with a dealer, it already had half its parts sold to garages and replaced with cheap counterfeits or used parts from aforementioned wrecked vehicles.

The ones that have already passed the 10/15 year limit are already de registered and NOC will not be issued from RTO. The legit cars are generally sold off at the 9 years mark since the owners know it will be towed off once it hits the 10 year limit and the price fetched will massively decrease. They are generally snatched up by dealers from other states.

A 10 year old Cayenne is still a money pit even if it is a single owner car, so I hope you know what you are in for.

[Entsurgeon]

Originally Posted by SiddharthR

Similarly, 2013-15 Porsche Cayenne single owner with ~50k kms is available for <20L (diesel) and <25L (petrol)

1. Does it make sense to purchase the car from a different city and transfer to Mumbai. What costs are to be expected for re-registration/transfer etc? Are there any challenges in transferring such cars out of state?

As long as the original registration has not been expired in Delhi, getting an NOC and registering such a car out of state is no big deal. People buy vehicles from out of state and re-register them in another state routinely. It's not a Herculean task.
Re registration costs vary state to state but they are not too little. In almost all states, a vehicle registration is anyway valid only for 15 years. After this, one needs to get their vehicle registration renewed. Cost involved is low if done before expiry of existing registration. Extension is usually granted for 5 years.

2. Do RTO officials/police track down such vehicles and seize the car etc?

In Delhi, many cars with expired registration parked on public roads were seized indeed. Once such a car is out of Delhi, any traffic cop can check the registration and other papers. Let's not talk about such cars as what I understand from your query is, you would anyway keep her legal. If you got a car registered outside of Delhi, its a legal car and Delhi cops won't seize her just because it was first registered 10/15 years back in Delhi

3. How easy or difficult is it to extend the car's useable life officially? Upto how long can it be extended if the car is well maintained?

Its a routine process. Both getting her registered outside Delhi and then keep getting her re-registered as and when needed. What usually happens is, most Insurance companies don't provide comprehensive cover for such old cars and while a third party liability cover would be good for legal purposes, Risking your 20-30 Lakhs (including out of state registration) on streets is not to everyone's appetite.

4. Is it feasible to change the body shape to a newer type to hide the car age and run it post the legal limit? Will there be challenges in getting insurance etc? I've seen some dealers offering this service.

While it's not impossible, it's not advisable either. The costs of spares would be high for high end cars. Then again only a face lift would be easier. Most cars of next generation have totally revised body panel designs, sizes mounting points. As an example, you can modify a Gen 4 2014 Honda City to a face lift Gen 4 2018 one by changing the bumpers headlights and a few chrome inserts etc. ( These won't be cheap thus negating any vost benefits) But you can not install the same of a Gen 5 model. The entire body and every panel is different.

I basically want to understand if it is possible to buy a 10 year old Porsche Cayenne Diesel for 15L, convert the body to the latest design and enjoy it for 10 more years ��

You can enjoy her sure. The added risk is, your home state may also follow Delhi way and disbands the Diesel cars over 10 years old. That said, the only advantage in buying from Delhi is wider choice. Otherwise, any financial gain in buying a 9-and-a-half-year-old diesel car would be negated by re-registration costs in other states. Many states up north ( Chandigarh comes to mind) do charge/charged a flat registration cost on vehicles but that would only help if you are from that region. In most other states, paying 5-15% of original invoice value would bring her to the price range not so far from prices in your home state. Not worth the loss of sleep over it
Well, unless you plan to buy a Rolls or a Ferrari.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by SiddharthR

I want to do a sense check of how lucrative it is to purchase these cars and run them till it is legally/practically possible
1. Does it make sense to purchase the car from a different city and transfer

Good points. Yes, it makes sense to buy and get it transferred. It depends on the state of re-registration and also the costs/ condition of the vehicle being the foremost. As these cars were originally multiple times the present costs, expect the service charges or the costs of spares to correspond with the original sales price. However, a lot of that component (sales price) was customs/ duties/ taxes extra, so one can find spares cheaper overseas. Also, some manufacturers are very fair in pricing, like BMW.

2. What ownership challenges can be expected going forward (non-maintenance)? Do RTO officials/police track down such vehicles and seize the car etc?

It's always a good idea to have a car in your own name per the address you live at. If you plan to use it for some short time, I don't think anyone will bother. In North India, no one bothers, and also in most parts of Gujarat/ Rajasthan or even Maharashtra, I can say, no one flags. One of my colleagues is using a CH-registered Etios in Mumbai. It's in the name of the company, so he has an excuse if stopped, but he was never asked.

3. How easy or difficult is it to extend the car's useable life officially? Upto how long can it be extended if the car is well maintained?

Will depend on the car. Most BMWs or Porsches will be good for 15-20 years at least with regular maintenance. Air suspension is something that will fail on most of these cars (if equipped) and can be a major expense.

I basically want to understand if it is possible to buy a 10 year old Porsche Cayenne Diesel for 15L, convert the body to the latest design and enjoy it for 10 more years

I don't think one gets such kits, but why will I do that? The older ones are so beautiful, and no one is going to stop you in a 10-year car!!

Finding registration charges is important, as a member has mentioned for TN. I don't know about Maharashtra, but in Chandigarh, it’s calculated based on the current IDV. It appears to me a very easy and correct/ logical way of calculations. You simply pay new tax based on the IDV on insurance, and the new registration happens.

Originally Posted by Cresterk

80% of those cars are either accidental, flooded or have their odos rolled back.

That will be very wrong. First of all, there are not too many floods Yes, Odo's roll back, almost certain, so one has to be very sure while buying from the dealer. A quick look at the service record or the condition of frequently used parts like the gear lever, accelerator/brake pedal, and so forth. You can immediately find out.

If it is a car with a legit odometer but it is with a dealer, it already had half its parts sold to garages and replaced with cheap counterfeits or used parts from aforementioned wrecked vehicles.

No, for a dealer, the car is an investment. They won't take anything off unless they are not able to sell the car. Selling an ECU or a gearbox from a Cayenne and replacing it with something that's broken but still working to complete a sale is a far-fetched idea.

A 10 year old Cayenne is still a money pit even if it is a single owner car, so I hope you know what you are in for.

No, Porsche is a fairly reliable brand. It's not a Tata that things will fail on its own. Exception: Air Suspension, as I previously mentioned. If one can find a good Cayenne ( Turbo or GT line), what's the harm? Pay inspection charges to a Porsche dealer, get a report, and maybe an extended warranty (Porsche sells old car warranties). One can fulfill the dream of having one at 10-20% of the costs of a new one, which will give you multiple times more enjoyment over a new Mahindra.

[adityaNview]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

No, Porsche is a fairly reliable brand. It's not a Tata that things will fail on its own. Exception: Air Suspension, as I previously mentioned. If one can find a good Cayenne ( Turbo or GT line), what's the harm? Pay inspection charges to a Porsche dealer, get a report, and maybe an extended warranty (Porsche sells old car warranties). One can fulfill the dream of having one at 10-20% of the costs of a new one, which will give you multiple times more enjoyment over a new Mahindra.

Thank you so much. I have been mulling over this idea for a very long time. I am, somewhere, tired of Toyota. I wanted to buy a Porsche but a new one costs upwards of 1 Crore.
With your estimation, I can buy a used one first to see if I like it and try it out.
Are diesels as reliable as petrol in Porsche?

[Cresterk]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

No, Porsche is a fairly reliable brand. It's not a Tata that things will fail on its own. Exception: Air Suspension, as I previously mentioned. If one can find a good Cayenne ( Turbo or GT line), what's the harm? Pay inspection charges to a Porsche dealer, get a report, and maybe an extended warranty (Porsche sells old car warranties). One can fulfill the dream of having one at 10-20% of the costs of a new one, which will give you multiple times more enjoyment over a new Mahindra.

I would trust my own 10 year old Porsche to be reliable.

I would probably buy your 10 year old Porsche in confidence.

I would atleast go check out any 10 year old Porsche being sold directly by any BHPian owner.

But I wouldn’t touch a Porsche that’s been in the possession of any of the usual 2nd hand dealers with a barge pole.

They may be more reliable than the average luxury car that is built with planned obsolescence in mind but they should NOT be confused for being abuse friendly like a Toyota, Honda or Maruti. You try to rag on this thing, it will make you regret it. They are not fast moving items and are often in the hands of these dealers for quite a while.

Their personnel handling these cars are paid around 15-40k. Even fuel and toll reimbursement can sometimes be irregular so they often times have to pay out of their own pocket. When they hear some irregular noise, they are not going to stop and call a tow truck by paying out of their pocket. Not to mention the usual blame games between employees that go on if something breaks. Even if it is a car with complete service history from first owner, they are not going to take it to the dealership to get something fixed. And preventive maintenance? Pfft.
At most the cheapest jugaad solution will be done and anyway all miles will be reset back to around the ballpark of when the car was last inside an official service center.

And this is not even considering that these cars are often passed around between dealership cartels if it is taking too long to sell. As well as the usual revving, performance testing by prospective customers for a 20L Porsche as well as the general abuse some of the senior employees put the car through to show off to their friend : “Abhe Porsche lehka aaya Tera bhai. Sound sunooo, power dekh…..” etc

So yeah, I would stay away from an old Porsche unless it’s either with the original owners or if it at a legitimate Porsche pre-owned dealership where any mishaps will atleast be fixed by actual trained Porsche employees.

[sukarsan]

The infamous Diesel ban was ordered by NGT in Apr 2015. After this, there would have been a drop in purchase of diesel cars. So, current situation is that-- cars which were sold between Oct 2014 and Apr 2015 will be available. There will be a massive drop in the number of diesel vehicles for disposal from Apr 2025 onwards, due to reduced sale. Its a short window , which can be made use of. After this such deals would be fairly limited.

[RGK]

Originally Posted by saikishor

Re-registering the vehicle itself is a hectic process.
So in simple words, it is not really worth the effort.

I now notice that Chennai is reregistering a large number of cars from Delhi. Now there are agents to take care of. Nothing like that if the car is too incredible for that amount of money.

I found a really nice car (2015 model, 35k miles driven) for just 10.5k when looking for an Innova (photos attchd). After re registering and minor cosmetic changes, it would have been roughly 14L. It will be very tough to find a locally registered high quality automobile for that price

Originally Posted by avsrihari

In Tamilnadu, you will be paying (12% Road tax on the original invoice value - 0.25% discount per year) Works out to 2.5% discount for a 10 year old car.

For more than 11 years - Under 10 lakhs, the life tax is 9% of the invoice value; between 10 and 20 lakhs, it is 14%; and above 20 lakhs, it is 16%

[Dr.Abhi]

Originally Posted by RGK

I now notice that Chennai is reregistering a large number of cars from Delhi. Now there are agents to take care of. Nothing like that if the car is too incredible for that amount of money.

I found a really nice car (2015 model, 35k miles driven) for just 10.5k when looking for an Innova (photos attchd). After re registering and minor cosmetic changes, it would have been roughly 14L. It will be very tough to find a locally registered high quality automobile for that price



For more than 11 years - Under 10 lakhs, the life tax is 9% of the invoice value; between 10 and 20 lakhs, it is 14%; and above 20 lakhs, it is 16%

I do not want demotivate, but its highly unlikely that a 10 year old diesel muv and that too Innova be only 35k kms driven. Such low reading on odo is a red flag in itself.

[RGK]

Originally Posted by Dr.Abhi

Such low reading on odo is a red flag in itself.

OT Here:

You are correct from a logical standpoint, but items like key fobs, door & grab handles, seats, gear knob, indicator stalks, spare tire jack & lever, air filter compartment, air hose, differential joint bolts, and injector pipes, fan leaf etc., cannot exhibit new & uniform wear and tear. The body paint was verified using a thickness gauge and also it had a true periodical service record (no body shop remarks). I reiterate this car was damn good. The search began in Aug'23 and concluded in Dec' 23 (~30 vehicles) and picked a 85k driven 2017 Crysta.

My sister-in-law sold her 10-year-old i10 with just 3500 kms on it for 1.5L in Delhi (Janakpuri). Her brother was furious that she did not inform him before selling. There are genuinely low mileage cars available, but thorough research is necessary before making a final decision.

[boniver]

Originally Posted by RGK

OT Here:
My sister-in-law sold her 10-year-old i10 with just 3500 kms on it for 1.5L in Delhi (Janakpuri). Her brother was furious that she did not inform him before selling. There are genuinely low mileage cars available, but thorough research is necessary before making a final decision.

No offence to anyone here, but it is better to buy a well-driven car than a barely driven one. Between a 10 year old car run 3500kms and a 10 year old car run 1L kms, I'd choose the second option any day.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Most BMWs or Porsches will be good for 15-20 years at least with regular maintenance.

Hmmm....I'm not so sure about this comment.

I have a BMW that is 11 years old. Its been great for regular upkeep and maintenance. However, when it comes to renewal of parts, it ain't cheap. Small, plastic and rubber parts deteriorate over time and they cost A LOT. I have spent more on this than any actual major mechanical failure. Also, you need a really good independent garage, else you are a sitting duck.

Before I got my BMW, I did fancy an old S class and a Porsche Panamera Diesel. Both in immaculate and perfect mechanical condition. Nothing had to be fixed. What could possibly go wrong with the Porsche. It has the excellent Audi 3Tdi V6 diesel. Its nearly as bomb proof as a Toyota's D-4D series and sounds glorious. My mechanic warned me that any part you buy with a Porsche label on it (which is a legit part) will empty my wallet. Replacing brakes on a Porsche is an expensive process and these are wear items. You don't wait till the brakes give up on you. The brakes on my BMW set me back $3,400! Can you imagine what it will cost for a Porsche!

You want to head down the path of an old or semi old German or European car is all well and good till the point comes to part replacement. It will bleed you high and dry. If you're good with that, well go ahead and take the plunge.

[vredesbyrd]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Will depend on the car. Most BMWs or Porsches will be good for 15-20 years at least with regular maintenance. Air suspension is something that will fail on most of these cars (if equipped) and can be a major expense.

So it would be fair to say that an F30/F10, that appears to be in a fairly decent nick, taken to BMW authorized service for a 360 degree inspection would be a fair buy at 8-10 years old, provided that the report is good?
That is of course considering that a lot for parts might fail at that age, it is to be expected and to be budgeted for.

NCR would be my go-to market because of the mouth watering prices. Mumbai seems the next option in terms of economic deals.
I have been budgeting for an old one for a few years now and only issues are:

1. No idea about how UP calculates taxes on used vehicles, I really hope it is based on IDV. Plus, they are not allowing 10 year old out-of-state diesels to be registered here

2. Have to do something about a 3rd parking space

On the other hand, I do have W204 C200 (1.8T) in consideration. What I lose in driving dynamics, I gain in equipment levels and a petrol engine (vs. the F30).
Would it be a safe bet in terms of reliability?

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Cresterk

But I wouldn’t touch a Porsche that’s been in the possession of any of the usual 2nd hand dealers with a barge pole.

Most sellers of such cars will not bother showing the car to "n" number of prospective customers and will sell to their trusted known dealer. We need to be choosy and as I mentioned before, very thorough in analysing. Restrict yourself to a single owner, with less than say 40 or 50K mileage. And get a check done. Most of the examples in the market are near 7-8 Year or even early. Yes, it's not for everyone but for anyone who has passion, a little DIY guy or at least understands basics, I will suggest checking at least.

Today, new Cayenne costs 1,5 Cr or more, and if we can get one for 20-30 Lac from past generations, how bad or expensive can it get? Obviously, one can buy a brand new Tiguan and have similar fun given the traffic or roads we have

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

I have a BMW that is 11 years old. Its been great for regular upkeep and maintenance. However, when it comes to renewal of parts, it ain't cheap

Yes, that's the caveat and that shows on the resales. A 7-Year-old LandCruiser will not be available for less than a Crore here in India but a 5-Year-old Porsche Cayenne can be bought much cheaper.

Originally Posted by vredesbyrd

So it would be fair to say that an F30/F10, that appears to be in a fairly decent nick, taken to BMW authorized service for a 360 degree inspection would be a fair buy at 8-10 years old, provided that the

If I recollect, BMW did Import a large lot (at that time) for 3 and 5 series - CBU models in 2016/17 when the initial NGT ruling came. Those may have some basic interior (there were 2 different variants - loaded and basic). If you can find one at 10-12 Lac, what's the harm? Most parts on BMW and service costs is very competitive and so on Porsche.

[krishbvmk]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Most sellers of such cars will not bother showing the car to "n" number of prospective customers and will sell to their trusted known dealer. We need to be choosy and as I mentioned before, very thorough in analysing. Restrict yourself to a single owner, with less than say 40 or 50K mileage. And get a check done. Most of the examples in the market are near 7-8 Year or even early. Yes, it's not for everyone but for anyone who has passion, a little DIY guy or at least understands basics, I will suggest checking at least.

Very true. One has to exercise abundant caution and do thorough checks before deciding the buy. Don't get carried away the initial quoted price. Plz read my horrid experience.
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post5787564 (My travails and tribulations of buying a used Tata Hexa at Gurugram)

[mpksuhas]

Does anyone have a reference who can check a selected car (Innova Crysta) at Delhi and confirm if its good to buy or not.

Its a 8 year old car being sold and a colleague of mine, located at Bangalore wants to visit Delhi and purchase it.