[bullitt1]

Yes, compared to the Western countries, the choices are limited. For a given budget, if one wants any car then there are many options but hardly any for an enthusiast.

[Dr.Car]

Originally Posted by Livnletcarsliv

In a given budget these are the options
1. Upto 15L - Maruti, Tata, (Hyundai & Kia), Mahindra, Toyota, Citroen, Nissan, Renault, Honda - 9 options.
2. 16L-25L - Maruti, Tata, (Hyundai & Kia), Mahindra, MG, Toyota, (VW & Skoda), Honda - 8 options.
3. 26L-40L - MG, Toyota, (Hyundai & Kia), Jeep, Isuzu - 5 options
4. 41L-60L - Toyota, Citroen, (Skoda & VW) - 3 options
5. 60L-1Cr - Toyota, Jeep, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo, BMW, Porsche, Jaguar, Land Rover, Lexus - 10 options
Above 1Cr - Toyota, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo, BMW, Porsche, Jaguar, Land Rover, Lexus, Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborgini, Maserati, Rolls Royce, Bentley - 15 options.

I think the situation is very correctly analysed here but on a lighter note did anyone notice Toyota is the only manufacturer which has cars in all the price brackets

Even though some of the vehicles like the Land cruiser which cost much above 1 Cr would actually cost less if the 100% custom duties on CBUs were not levied!

[Dr.Car]

Originally Posted by Livnletcarsliv

Personally, I see that one of the important valuation factor is the wheels that a country's top most politicians and government officials use. For eg - US (Beast from GM), Japan (Toyota), China (local brand), UK (local brand). While we (Indians), claim that we are the fastest growing economy in the world for many years now, we are still no where close to having that special vehicle from our own brands and locally manufactured.

This is the exact point which even I use for evaluation but in the recent years I've seen a lot of people counter-question
me that even we've now started using our own vehicle i.e. Range Rover which is owned by Tata and so the situation is other way round, therefore it is actually UK who's using our brand!

Even though I try my best to explain them that the brand is still very much British because all the R & D, part manufacturing is done in UK only. Heck! We even don't have the complete portfolio of engine options here in India. It's just that the owner of the company has shifted but they are pretty reluctant to agree to this. Your thoughts please....

[ChandraSekarMN]

Originally Posted by asit.kulkarni93

Scrap the sub4m rule and change the insurance slabs. All these measures will definitely help boost the automobile industry. In turn manufacturers should start selling their global products here which will not only enhance safety of the products but also ensure the ancillary industry's growth. The bureaucracy involved needs to wake up. We have lost plenty of global manufacturers and might end up loosing a few more.

While scrapping sub4m rule is a good to have option (from enthusiasts point of view), Government and lobbying by largest OEMs would not want that to happen, precisely for the same reason (to avoid further Global Competition).

[Livnletcarsliv]

Originally Posted by RedTerrano

I am confused.
You have listed 50 options yourself, but are wondering if we have any freedom of choice? Where exactly are we lacking?

Perhaps, you did not get what I meant - I did not list all the auto brands in India. I am talking about options/choices for a consumer in a particular budget. I am talking about QUALITY products as options for a consumer. Perhaps, you are happy with your existing garage. As an enthusiast or even claiming to be the fastest auto market in the world, you don't think we lag options as a consumer? Honda, Renault, Nissan, Skoda, VW - I am sure you are aware of what these brands offer in India vs world. I understand that India is a different market, but these brands don't even offer their global products even as an option (even if it is 5-8 lakhs more expensive in a particular segment).

Originally Posted by RedTerrano

Perhaps you left out electric to avoid apples and oranges, but people are opting for eVehicles in encouraging numbers. Sure we don't have Tesla, but some of the others are still good (e.g. Nexon recently beat their drum and thumbed their nose at Mahindra, after crossing 35,000 units)

There is no difference between a Nexon ICE vs Nexon EV except for the powertrain. I don't consider an industry successful just with the success of the initial wave. The success depends on its sustainabiity. The EV ecosystem is still in the nascent stage not just in India but globally as well. This ICE ecosystem is almost 150 years old. EVs are just approx. 10 years old. It will definitely take time to arrive at a conclusion.

Originally Posted by RedTerrano

Sure, but in the same environment, didn't Kia and MG bloom?

I feel the competition does exist and it is brutal. Those who listen to their customers, adapt and manage to come up with exciting features, survive. The rest are destined to be forgotten.

Exactly. Competition exists. But I don't think Ford/GM/Fiat cars were lacking something significant - Ecosport was still selling in good numbers, Punto was still selling in good numbers. And both these cars were global models. How many Carens, Sonets, Cretas Maruti's, Tata's, M&M's do you see in the global markets.

Competition should come with quality. We all know the quality of Kia/Maruti cars vs Ford/GM/Fiat cars in India. Success does not mean only volumes. Toyota is successful not because it sells more cars. It is successful because it sells cars with reliability, quality, performance, etc, etc. For that matter, I hope you aware of the quality difference of Maruti Swift - International vs India.

[TSI_Exhaust]

Originally Posted by Livnletcarsliv

Perhaps, you did not get what I meant - I did not list all the auto brands in India. I am talking about options/choices for a consumer in a particular budget. I am talking about QUALITY products as options for a consumer. Perhaps, you are happy with your existing garage. As an enthusiast or even claiming to be the fastest auto market in the world, you don't think we lag options as a consumer? Honda, Renault, Nissan, Skoda, VW - I am sure you are aware of what these brands offer in India vs world. I understand that India is a different market, but these brands don't even offer their global products even as an option (even if it is 5-8 lakhs more expensive in a particular segment).

Hey Livnletcarsliv!

Completely with you on this.

In the current market the average Indian customer is spoilt for choice but for the enthusiast, the market lacks quality.

As they say, 'high on quantity, low on quality'. Nothing to get the heart racing.

The brands you mentioned, they have a big portfolio for customers outside of India. Take Honda for example. No Civic!
But part of the problem is the people. We are given what most of the population want.

Not such a good time to be a car enthusiast looking to buy something that pleases the heart.

[ruzbehxyz]

Originally Posted by Livnletcarsliv

Competition should come with quality. We all know the quality of Kia/Maruti cars vs Ford/GM/Fiat cars in India. Success does not mean only volumes. Toyota is successful not because it sells more cars. It is successful because it sells cars with reliability, quality, performance, etc, etc.

+1

Exactly my point. We have a wide range of products to choose from, but not quality wise. And it’s not only quality of cars but also quality of service that matters.
We all know Tata made tough cars, but what lacked was their service and so consumers shied away. The story has now changed now though.
Generally speaking, in a 20 lakhs car you still get cheap plastic material, but that’s how it is. Gone are the days of strong robust material.
All in all, it’s not the manufacturer to blame in the first place, but also to blame the current laws and taxation system of India, which is rightly pointed out by some members.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by Livnletcarsliv

Exactly. Competition exists. But I don't think Ford/GM/Fiat cars were lacking something significant - Ecosport was still selling in good numbers, Punto was still selling in good numbers. And both these cars were global models. How many Carens, Sonets, Cretas Maruti's, Tata's, M&M's do you see in the global markets.

Competition should come with quality. We all know the quality of Kia/Maruti cars vs Ford/GM/Fiat cars in India. Success does not mean only volumes. Toyota is successful not because it sells more cars. It is successful because it sells cars with reliability, quality, performance, etc, etc. For that matter, I hope you aware of the quality difference of Maruti Swift - International vs India.

Ford \ GM \ Fiat were lacking the quality that an average Indian buyer was looking for, therefore they are not around anymore thankfully.

EcoSport
Endeavor Mk2
Tavera

These cars were successful because they offered the customer value that made him\her overlook the quality of the brand itself. There was a chance for the brands to build themselves up in the wake of this success, but they did not. Renault is another example.

Is Toyota really successful in India? I do not think so. They estimated a 10% market share by 2015 - now? less than 4% that too with the help of - Maruti.

Was Punto enough to compete with i20? I doubt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8crBVj-Fl8

In our market it is not good to have such brand bias, there is much to lose as a customer.

[rajshenoy]

Originally Posted by GTO

Hat's off to Tata, Mahindra & Kia for their success stories over the last 4 years . All 3 have performed marvellously. They've fought the big guys & small, and are the sole reason for Maruti + Hyundai's combined market-share to drop from 70% earlier to 55% today.

Spot on !!

If we want more competition in our market, auto makers need to replicate Tata, Mahindra and Kia. These are some good case studies and they do have some good roadmap to keep/increase that market share in future.

On the contrary, we also have examples like Honda which is not doing anything(similar to GM and Ford) and Renault/Nissan (similar to Fiat) not doing enough !! Once your dealers loose the motivation or become too complacent (both extremes) it will be a downhill battle.

[Livnletcarsliv]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Ford \ GM \ Fiat were lacking the quality that an average Indian buyer was looking for, therefore they are not around anymore thankfully.

EcoSport
Endeavor Mk2
Tavera

These cars were successful because they offered the customer value that made him\her overlook the quality of the brand itself. There was a chance for the brands to build themselves up in the wake of this success, but they did not. Renault is another example.

Is Toyota really successful in India? I do not think so. They estimated a 10% market share by 2015 - now? less than 4% that too with the help of - Maruti.

Was Punto enough to compete with i20? I doubt.

In our market it is not good to have such brand bias, there is much to lose as a customer.

You are absolutely right. This uninformed and illiterate brand bias makes us (as consumers) to loose a lot.

However, I don't see success as a volume game. Success (especially financial success), can be achieved through various methods. Volume is just one of the methods. If it's only volume, none of the premium brands will be operating out of India. Toyota IMHO is strong in its offering and its products are over-expensive as well. I would probably say that this Toyota's move of JV with Maruti is a wrong move that actually takes down the credibility/image of Toyota. I don't see Toyota introducing/launching a JV model anywhere outside India with some exceptions.

Originally Posted by rajshenoy

If we want more competition in our market, auto makers need to replicate Tata, Mahindra and Kia. These are some good case studies and they do have some good roadmap to keep/increase that market share in future.

On the contrary, we also have examples like Honda which is not doing anything(similar to GM and Ford) and Renault/Nissan (similar to Fiat) not doing enough !! Once your dealers loose the motivation or become too complacent (both extremes) it will be a downhill battle.

Tata and M&M cannot be replicated in India due to various other reasons - one of it is its diversified business portfolio. They have the capacity and capability still run their Auto business for a good enough time even if they are at loss. None of the non-Indian brands can dare to take that step. While I say that, the product portfolio of Tata and M&M definitely needs a great appreciation party. Unfortunately, Maruti/Hyundai/Kia/Tata/M&M doesn't talk about quality of its Indian offerings. For eg - even after 4 years of launch Harrier is not free from numerous niggles. And we all know, how is Maruti able to hold the largest market share.

Kia/MG is different story though. Kia was able to break the market only due to Hyundai's presence and expertise in India. That said, Kia has done a remarkable job in India.

India is not the same market like how it was in 10 years back. Today we see a lot of caravan ads and so on.. which means there is enough market of informed and unbiased buyers/consumers (eg - the automotive journalism, TBhp, etc,.). I cannot even count the number of you-tube channels/you-tubers who do product reviews (biased/unbiased). How many reputed auto-journalists are there compared to say 10 years ago? So I don't think India is still a un-matured market. There is a lot more than just pure volume game. For eg - Compass can sell more. But unfortunately, it doesn't sell as expected. Why ? - Because it's unreliable and there is no commitment from the Jeep in India. (Wrangler is one of most reliable cars in the US). Compass being a >15 year old global product cannot and should not be unreliable.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by Livnletcarsliv

You are absolutely right. This uninformed and illiterate brand bias makes us (as consumers) to loose a lot.

However, I don't see success as a volume game. Success (especially financial success), can be achieved through various methods. Volume is just one of the methods. If it's only volume, none of the premium brands will be operating out of India. Toyota IMHO is strong in its offering and its products are over-expensive as well. I would probably say that this Toyota's move of JV with Maruti is a wrong move that actually takes down the credibility/image of Toyota. I don't see Toyota introducing/launching a JV model anywhere outside India with some exceptions.

Toyota is a mass market brand, they cannot operate like a Lexus - so without volumes the dealers will jump ship and then without dealer touch points the customers too will look for alternatives - these are daily driven cars like Fortuner, Innova etc - hence Maruti JV. Certainly you cannot blindly go after volumes and make losses. The investment required to come up with a compact SUV from the ground up for our market is probably not worth Toyota`s time.

[GeeTee TSI]

Interesting observation, I tend to agree that while models may seem many to a first time buyer, the options to upgrade (mid level for example) are not many. For someone who tracks global launches and markets it gives the feeling of being a frog in a well

If the drive train options are made as a consideration, then the choice is dismal!

Luxury segment is wonderfully populated with the who's who of the automotive world. Quite a similar scenario in mid to premium motorcycles with a broad base of international choices compared to say, the scooter segment

[youngmonk]

When it comes to India every manufacturer gives us the cold shoulder. After ardently following "Wheelsboy" channel on YouTube, I see how hard Chinese car manufacturers try to get their customers' attention. From brilliant fit and finish, features, safety, design etc. everything is handled well. Even if they're outright copies of some US or Euro counterpart.

They're giving their cars everything they have, while we still get treated like some second-rate resale market.

[samee_arian]

I may sound a little harsh here, but do we really deserve diverse options. While we are surrounded by enthusiasts and logical people here in this forum, we only make a miniscule percentage of total auto consumers. To make matters worse, a call of heart is often overpowered by mind and finances and most guys end up siding with "kitna deti hai", "performance toh accha hai par maintenance jyada hoga na", "safe toh hai lekin inki gaadiya resale nahi deti", etc. We had some very good offerings but car manufacturers need volumes to survive and as many of us know, market share in Indian auto industry is just like distribution of wealth in India, too few own too much and the rest remain marginalized.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by samee_arian

I may sound a little harsh here, but do we really deserve diverse options. While we are surrounded by enthusiasts and logical people here in this forum, we only make a miniscule percentage of total auto consumers. To make matters worse, a call of heart is often overpowered by mind and finances and most guys end up siding with "kitna deti hai", "performance toh accha hai par maintenance jyada hoga na", "safe toh hai lekin inki gaadiya resale nahi deti", etc. We had some very good offerings but car manufacturers need volumes to survive and as many of us know, market share in Indian auto industry is just like distribution of wealth in India, too few own too much and the rest remain marginalized.

Even Maruti has listened to the miniscule automotive enthusiasts and has decided to bring out their small offroad vehicle, our opinions matter.

There are several OEMs who keep an eye on this forum no doubt.

Distribution of wealth is a political topic, perhaps best for another thread.