[itwasntme]

Another interesting fact is that MNCs are steadily incentivising EVs in their company leased car plans so as to lower their carbon footprints.

A friend mentioned that going forward, his company vehicle will be restricted to ~200 hp if ICE or 250 hp if EV. Of course, there is a monetary ceiling too, but a horsepower limit is radical thinking in India at least.

[drsachin]

Originally Posted by antz.bin

I was checking out leasing options offered by my employer and noticed that the monthly ₹ outgo in leasing cost + fuel costs for the following 2 cars for running a measly 800km per month was exactly the same.

1. MG ZS EV Excite (₹23.9Lakh OTR Pune)
2. Skoda Kushaq 1.0 TSI Style MT (₹18.55 Lakh OTR Pune)

Everything else aside, the ZS is more powerful, longer, has a bigger boot, has 4 more Airbags, more features, accelerates faster, is automatic and still costs equal to the Kushaq.

No brainer really considering even if both suffer the same %age of depreciation by the end of the lease, the ZS will be worth more. I would consider 400km+ of rated range more than enough for most applications.

80% cost of an EV is battery pack and drive motor. And average life of an EV battery is 8years only that's why most EV manufacturers provide 8years warranty. So if your battery goes dead at the end 8years, the resale value of your MG ZS EV would be may 10000-15000. The cost of scrap at the end of 10years.

MG ZS ES if i know correctly is not build in India but imported into India in knocked down state. So in case battery or drive motors go caput even within warranty, spares would take atleast a month. So be prepared to Taxi services during that time.

And lastly MG being a Chinese company, you never know with the kind of relationship India had with China, you never know when it packs it's bag then warranty will not have any use. In last 5 years we have seen so many companies packing their bags in India.

So your calculations depend on lots of "Hope" . Battery or drive motor should go dead within 8 years warranty. Battery price reduces to manageable cost at the end of 8 years. And MG as a brand stays in India at the end of 8 years.

I would anyday prefer even a diesel car over any EV even in Delhi NCR, atleast you can run them for 10years and carry good resale value as they are sold Outside Delhi NCR at the end of 10years.
Ofcourse hybrids are even better then diesel for delhi NCR

[nandrive]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEEBq1AXhJw

Here an Australian car reviewer did a running cost comparison test between an EV and a Diesel car, even with the all time high diesel price, results are really surprising.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by drsachin

80% cost of an EV is battery pack and drive motor.

Is it? So MB GLB and EQB are launched at 69Lakhs and 75Lakhs respectively. So according to you, the EQB battery and drive motor costs 80% of 75L = 60L. The entire body, electronics, suspension, wheels in a MB EQB costs just 15L?

Now add 10L for the petrol engine and drivetrain on GLB, MB is selling a 25L car for 69L with a profit of 44L.

Now if we use the same logic for Nexon EV MAX at 20L, the battery and motor costs 16L, Tata is selling probably the top end Nexon petrol (4L for body + ~3L for engine) at a profit of 7L?

[drsachin]

https://www.cartoq.com/tata-nexon-el...al-prices/amp/

My figures came from this and numerous other similar articles .

11.5/14.29 ...I think it's close to 80%, please correct me if I am wrong..

May be luxury EV vehicles that you have quoted does work out different

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by drsachin

https://www.cartoq.com/tata-nexon-el...al-prices/amp/

My figures came from this and numerous other similar articles .

11.5/14.29 ...I think it's close to 80%, please correct me if I am wrong..

May be luxury EV vehicles that you have quoted does work out different

These are sticker prices, buy any electronic product and check its sticker it will be almost double the price you bought the product for. There will be a lot of variation to actual price which Tata charges to the customer(Tata will have its profit added here), we need to wait for atleast 5 years to know.

[drsachin]

I know sir these are sticker prices and sticker prices include various components such as GST dealer profit , logistics etc...But that will remain for both Spare parts and Ex show room prices..

If you research on internet you will numerous similar articles which reveal cost of EV components ratio vs Cost of vehicle itself and it's mostly ranging from 50 to 80%....It moves towards 80% for lower cost EVs.

I too want electric vehicles battery pack and drive component cost to come down 5 to 10years from now. But unfortunately instead of reducing the cost of battery packs is increasing thanks to raising cost of Rare metals that these battery packs use. May be the situation is better after 5 years or 10years. may be battery technology evolve but this involves relying on "Hope".

May be 10years down the line of cost of battery packs comes down significantly then we may see a scenario that EVs are priced even lower than ICE.

[aim120]

Originally Posted by drsachin

https://www.cartoq.com/tata-nexon-el...al-prices/amp/

My figures came from this and numerous other similar articles .

11.5/14.29 ...I think it's close to 80%, please correct me if I am wrong..

May be luxury EV vehicles that you have quoted does work out different

If you build a car by buying spares from the automobile manufacturer, I guarantee it will cost 2x to 3x more then buying a new car from factory.
The spare parts have a very high mark up in some cases 1000% in IC engine powered cars itself.

The motor in the Nexon is still imported from china, it may be assembled in India (Assembling the reduction gear to motor). The government data itself says the motor is imported.

If Tata where to make them in India itself by vertical integration, the price will drop.

Even a Ford Mach E electric motor, which Ford sells for aftermarket electric conversions only costs $4300 and its 281hp motor vs the nexon 127hp, despite the fact Ford electric motor is made in USA.
https://accessories.ford.com/product...electric-motor

So its upto the individual manufacturer to keep the price competitive.

The motor price of the old Tigor EV now rebadged as Xpress T costs only around 90k in Boodmo spares parts store and thats a Induction motor which has no rear earth materials much like the Tesla Model S pre 2019 and current Model S, Model 3/Y front motors are induction motor.

[84.monsoon]

Originally Posted by shyampsunder

3. I don't how you are saying pure EVs are a decade away. We are experiencing a hockey stick growth rate in 2Ws and we will follow it in 4Ws. All EVs are massively back ordered with cabs rapidly leading the adoption pattern.

5. We have already tried incentivizing hybrids in the past. Companies just game it without providing any benefits.

Almost everyone I know buying 4-wheeler EVs today is having it as a second or third car in the household. These are mostly upper class people with independent homes where they can install chargers. 99% of apartment complexes in Chennai for example, do not offer EV charging facilities and we are speaking of a Tier 1 metro here. There is still lingering fear of fires, though these were mostly happening with 2 wheelers, people are generalising. When the topic came up for discussion at our owners’ association, where some of us made a proposal to equip the parking spaces with EV chargers, the majority vehemently opposed citing fire hazards.

Majority of our households who own cars are one car households. They want to use their cars for the occasional road trip over a long weekend and this is one of the main attractions of buying the car. The range anxiety with EVs kills this and this is the main reason EVs are confined to being a second or third car in a multi-car household. With that kind of positioning, the market size for pure EVs can never scale, as once the novelty value wears out, and all the multi-car have households have each acquired their one EV, the volume growth will taper off.

Two-wheelers are an entirely different use case, as average trip distances are in single digits and range anxiety is not a problem. So we cannot compare the sharp growth of this segment and extrapolate that on to passenger cars.

While the Centre is pushing EVs, not all states are fully on board either. Tamil Nadu has not even provided approval for commercial EV operations even today! Our office admin team and our transport operator are ready to invest and waiting to convert part of the employee transport fleet to EVs, for 3 years now. This has not moved an inch, as, for some inexplicable reason,TN government has not approved EVs for commercial use!

Nor have they given a single rupee of subsidy for EVs. One reason could be the state earns big GST share from fuel sales and is also teetering on edge of becoming a power deficit state. If it encourages EVs and the volumes explode, two things happen - it earns less from fuel taxes and also faces pressure on power generation capacity and the risk of becoming a power deficit state. Of course, any road wax excemptioms also hit the few sources of revenue the state can control after GST.

These are just a few of the reasons I feel we are at least 10 years from significant electrification of the passenger cars. Lack of public charging infrastructure is another. Imagine in our office with 100s of parking spaces, the developer has provided just 3 (around 1-2% of spots), which are equipped with EV charging capability! This too, happened after a lot of us lobbied hard for providing at least 20% parking spots with charging ability.

When you say we tried incentivising hybrids, those hybrids are very different from today’s strong hybrids. The mild hybrids give a 5% increase in fuel efficiency but the strong hybrids provide nearly 100% increase in urban driving conditions! So now is the time to provide that subsidy, as the technology has reached the maturity required to deliver. IMO, if Toyota, Suzuki and Honda (all of whom have their own hybrid technology), go all out to bring say at least 3 model choices in each growth segment which has big volumes - such as compact sedans and SUVs, mid-size sedans and SUVs, and MPVs, the market can explode. With a Rs. 1.5-2 lakh subsidy, which will cover the on-road price difference between a ICE and strong hybrid, significant volume can be shifted to strong hybrid, saving India a substantial portion of our oil imports.

[wocanak]

Let the people who are skeptical about EVs, stick to ICE for now. As it is in most markets the demand for EVs outstrips supply. So there is no point in further evangelizing EVs, when existing demand is not being met.

Looks like it will take 3 to 5 years for supply to catch up to demand, by then there will be more data to clearly show how EVs have fared.

[AulusGabinius]

Personally not a fan of lithium EVs, and in principle the drawbacks of charging time are not going to change significantly. Even if they do, there are far too many terms and conditions imposed by the science. Hybrids are almost always going to be the norm, just not ICE hybrids. My guess is most likely a hydrogen or bio-CNG hybrid is going to be the car of te future. In that sense, BEVs right now are a transition too. If Toyota's bringing Ni-MH batteries to India, which some doubted would happen after the Hyryder's lithium battery, then I think it's going to find more buyers for sure. In my experience, range anxiety dominates the vast majority of people's minds even if it doesn't actually matter, even in the city. A fit and forget sort of car is always going to sound better.

[shamanths3]

Originally Posted by 84.monsoon

I firmly believe hybrids are a more environmentally friendly solution than pure EVS at this point in time for India, for this reason.

Here's an article with "ACTUAL" references to research which shows that this entire article is basically biased and makes it null and void.

https://www.treehugger.com/electric-...hybrid-5197746

It is ok to buy whichever technology you like or love. But don't discourage others from choosing when you don't have the full picture.

[drsachin]

Originally Posted by shamanths3

Here's an article with "ACTUAL" references to research which shows that this entire article is basically biased and makes it null and void.

https://www.treehugger.com/electric-...hybrid-5197746

It is ok to buy whichever technology you like or love. But don't discourage others from choosing when you don't have the full picture.

Read your article carefully sir it already talks about 5% areas of the world where EVs are found contributing more towards pollution then ICE as these are the countries where predominant electricity production is coal powered. Unfortunately India belong to this 5% world.

Anyway most private buyers buy cars based on economics. The car which cost the least to own and maintain is favoured, Pollution or not pollution is secondary advantage. For people who are dependent on cars for their livelihood will base their buying decision on economics only. So central/state governments should formulate policies which help towards pollution reduction keeping these personal economic factors in mind.
1. Encourage Electric vehicles. Without doubt they reduce pollution. In present scenario, they are helping reduce pollution by shifting source of pollution outside the cities. But the next course of action would be towards shifting electricity production to renewables/Nuclear. central governments are already doing it. Build EV infrastructure within cities, society flats etc. Build geniune EV ecosystem which is sustainable (Non Chinese dependent, non lithium dependent).

2. Encourage Strong hybrids. This helps by easy adaptation for people who find EV only modes not feasible (Those living in society flats, poor EV infrastructure). Advantages are also low Chinese/Lithium dependent. Definitely reduce pollution by atleast 50% compared to conventional ICE.

3. Discourage diesels, discourage poor fuel economy cars: why only half hearted effort in reducing pollution by merely punishing diesel cars. Why not make efforts in improving efficiency of pollution checking centres. Some of newer generation diesel cars may be less polluting then older technology petrols. A fuel guzzling petrol luxury cars /SUVs may be more polluting then smaller diesels. Why not tax them according to fuel efficiency/ actual pollution contributing by them. Delhi government temporarily banned all diesel cars below BS6, why no ban on fuel guzzling luxury cars or poorly maintained two wheelers. Efforts of Delhi government is really funny, sometime they introduce odd even , sometimes ban diesels, no consistent policies , it's really confusing to car users. But each time selecting leaving out those who may be contributing more due to political reasons.

4. Encourage reverse migration of people out of cities. This is again where politics are making things difficult. Biggest contribution to pollution in cities is ever increasing population. Over Population in cities then they can sustain is contributing to both air pollution and mountains of garbage. World over capital states are purposefully made expensive to live for a reason. But the present Delhi government is doing the opposite. The freebies(Free electricity, water) make living in capital city more rewarding then staying outside. Presently the satellite towns of Delhi (Noida Gurgaon) is far more expensive then Delhi in every possible way(Expensive water/electricity/real estate due to high Circle rates while Delhi is still dealing with low circle rates and high black money). Now how will they solve problem of garbage mountains on which they fought present elections, the easiest and cost effective thing would be to burn them. So Delhi people please watchout for more Pollution in coming days and more punishing of private car users.

[shamanths3]

Originally Posted by drsachin

Anyway most private buyers buy cars based on economics. The car which cost the least to own and maintain is favoured, Pollution or not pollution is secondary advantage. For people who are dependent on cars for their livelihood will base their buying decision on economics only. So central/state governments should formulate policies which help towards pollution reduction keeping these personal economic factors in mind.

Thank you for agreeing with me. The future should not be limited to one single fuel source and repeat the mistake we have done. It should be ICE, Hydrogen, EV and so on. This way we don't hyper stress the resource availability and ensures better future.

The author of the article seems to be hell bent on proving one is better than the other which will never work especially when you are misleading.

Also on the power generation, please do check the strides Karanataka has taken on the power generated by renewable resources. It's just that others have to follow.

[Motorhead23]

[quote=drsachin;5449633]https://www.cartoq.com/tata-nexon-el...al-prices/amp/

My figures came from this and numerous other similar articles .

11.5/14.29 ...I think it's close to 80%, please correct me if I am wrong..

From my experience in procurement, the Landed price of EV Batteries in India is near to 40 ~ 45% of the Basic Price of the car. And for an EV the basic price would be much higher as compared to any ICE Car of similar Ex-showroom owing to different taxation rules [ 5% GST for EVs vs 45~48% for ICE in that price band]

What we get to know through boodmo etc. are all sticker price which account for huge margins, all the handling & storage cost involved.