[arsenalfan]

We need to take some of the following corrections
1. residential power price is approx Rs 10 / kwhr
2. whilst claimed mileage of Creta is 18, actual on city roads is only 13
3. the MG ZS EV range as per owner friends is 270-280km only. not 460km
4. the base car pricing should be indexed to 100 for a fair comparison

[ramnaresh_2000]

Funny I was watching below video today and I find this article in TBHP. Thanks to big boss Google AI who is always listening

https://youtu.be/Ux4MVqiPtQg

This person got almost similar mileage in Grand Vitara and Creta Diesel i.e 22 kmpl. My 2 cents

• I would still prefer the diesel over any mild hybrid
• Mild hybrids are slow compared to diesels
• Low end torque in diesel engine is still unmatched by any turbo petrol engine
• If driven sedately on highway, we can extract more mileage in diesels
• Diesel is still 15-20 bucks cheaper than Petrol in my state
• The premium of strong hybrid over diesel engine negates the benefits. Toyota Hyryder is starting at 19 lakhs on road, 22 lakhs for mid variant and top end is 24 lakhs on road. Creta/Seltos diesel top end is around 22 lakhs.
• Only concern is Adblue and DPF issues in BS6 diesels, no 10 years stupid rule in my state (fingers crossed)

Having said that, whenever a friend or relative approach me for car buying advice, I always say "If buying new car go with Turbo-Petrol and if buying used go with BS4 diesel engine".

[aim120]

Originally Posted by Hayek

be that will change with time - but Moore’s law type dynamics will apply to EVs over time, and their cost is only likely to fall. Any rational calculation will show that a diesel is superior to an EV - but for lots of users such as myself (who run less than 10000 km per annum), a petrol makes even more sense. So if we buy an EV, it is for the Green Plates - and certainly not for economic benefit of EV ownership,

Sorry but every EV launched thus far in India have only gone up in price, since their launch price.
So if you think that in 5 years down the line EV will be cheaper, (EV like Tiago is cheap due to segment of the vehicle) not be the case when you compare a EV of today with EV from 5 years of the same segment.

Also which IC car has gone down in price now vs say 5 or 10 years back.

Even lead acid batteries which are 100% made in india since decades from raw material stage has only gone up in price.

Lithium battery prices will slowly fall in price due to scale but everything else in battery raw material is increasing in price, as are the raw material and labor cost of making every car (IC or EV) is going up in price.

If the government removes the EV gst concession and road tax benefits the price will be very high for the future buyer.

Atleast the current EV owner will start to save in fuel.

Also much cheaper maintaince cost of EVs. Even a oil change in IC vehicles with synthetic oil costs around 5k with oil filter change and labor every year.

[K7@TN14]

Excellent job! I felt the comparison was going to be normal performance and specifications when I read the title. This gave me a different perspective through the compelling narrative with unexpected factors taken into account in the analysis such as break-even simulation, ecological credentials and costs with GTS exemptions. I appreciate the sharing.

[rajshenoy]

Very insightful charts. I have an interesting take on this. What if someone were to decide based on a budget instead of segment ?

For example, Someone with 20 Lakh budget(OTR Bangalore) and considering Hyryder vs Creta vs Nexon EV Max ? As an urban user, one might be looking at City usage and those long(ish) runs for 2+2 only and Nexon might just do fine here.

Nexon costs around 20L and is definitely cheaper compared to top trim Hyryder and definitely has bigger boot space

I would love to see how the charts would end up looking in this case ?

[Car Fan]

Originally Posted by pqr

Green credential

Attachment 2368467

If grid electricity's CO2 footprint is factored in, the BEV loses its green credential. But then that’s not BEV’s fault; this is due to the heavy reliance on fossil fuels as a major power generation source in India. Pure solar-based charging points are far and few, and mostly not viable in heavily urbanized regions of India.

For the time being, BEVs are only assisting in shifting pollutants to the location of thermal power generation due to zero tailpipe emissions. What India needs is an urgent and rapid diversification of renewable power generation sources.

What is the source of the vehicle CO2 emission numbers? It's a bit counterintuitive, like saying that that diesel gensets are less or as polluting as thermal power stations.

Agree with the broader point about the importance of fuel mix and the need to keep building renewable capacity.

[anshuman_v]

Great analysis indeed. I think the sheer driving pleasure of an EV makes it an awesome value. We tend to pay for features in a car and the EV motor and it's zen like driving quality is certainly something I would pay a premium for.

I am also interested in seeing how the CO2 numbers are calculated. Please share the background material for these calculations.

[adityadeva]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

No, the Well to Wheel emissions of ICE are not added in the graph. .

This one omission - from oil well till the fuel is burnt up - it's a dirty dirty business and EV is much much clean in that respect.

Thanks to SKC-auto for highlighting the most understated point.

I don't know when people are going to educate themselves.

Even middle eastern oil jacks are switching to solar energy to pump out oil than use an electric diesel generator ( may be except for oil rigs).

[ajayc123]

It is a hard exercise to compare different cars for the break even and total cost of ownership, unless they are close. For example, a Nexon Petrol, Diesel and EV comparison may give you a completely different picture. Change the battery of the EV from 30 kWh to 40 kWh and your break even graphs change.

Driving experience varies significantly by power train.

Beyond a point, it becomes an academic exercise with results swinging based on assumptions. You can change and justify your assumptions to suit your decision.

[The Rationalist]

Originally Posted by rajshenoy

Very insightful charts. I have an interesting take on this. What if someone were to decide based on a budget instead of segment ?

For example, Someone with 20 Lakh budget(OTR Bangalore) and considering Hyryder vs Creta vs Nexon EV Max ?

Exactly! Most buyers except the enthusiasts buy cars based on budget, they shop across hatch, CSUV and MPV body styles. Even the ones looking for SUV body style look across CSUV, psuedo SUV. Budget is the first thing most buyers fix. So someone with ₹20 lakh budget will consider Nexon EV along the +4m pseudo SUV’s for sure.

Not everyone walks around with a measuring tape and make Excel sheets before buying cars. For the vast majority it is still how much it will cost to run the car. If that wasn’t the case we wouldn’t have seen this surge in EV sales. My running costs is around ₹15/km right now. I drive a turbo petrol DCT and drive it just how it should be, my mileage is hovering at around 8 km/L. Even I’m tempted by EV’s except that the top speed is something which I have an issue with

[84.monsoon]

Thanks for the detailed analysis. As someone pointed out, real world range of EVs is way lower than the manufacturer advertises. Unlike the reporting of fuel efficiency for ICE cars, there is no standard for reporting the range for EVs in India (there should be stringent standards here as not only the consumer makes buying decisions based on range, but the government gives away huge subsidies based on assumed lower carbon footprint).

Also, the simulation should account for fuel price scenarios which are much higher than 120 Rupees per liter. In fact, the scenarios such as 80 rupees per liter and below are not going to happen ever again. With the war in Ukraine dragging on, OPEC members cutting oil output and dollar strengthening continuously, I feel we will soon see petrol and diesel teach 150 rupee per liter and stabilize there. In this case, the hybrids and EVs start to make sense over Diesel much sooner.

[Jekyl87]

Thanks for going into an in-depth cost analysis. Since its mainly an analysis centered around costs, it might be more useful to see like to like comparisons. Same car in ICE vs EV avatar. Like the tata nexon ICE vs nexon EV or MG astor vs ZS EV. For hybrid, we only have the Camry ICE vs Camry Hybrid for comparison (not sure if Camry is still sold in India)

[salbin]

Those who believe the cars launched with "STRONG HYBRID" tag is something great should understand the following fact:

The capacity of the so called "Strong Hybrid" is just 0.76KWh (attaching the photo of battery pack) - Just to give a perspective, the capacity of Ola scooter is 4KWh, which is 5X of the Strong Hybrid!
Most of the EVs available right now in market are with battery packs starting from 35X(Tigor EV) to 90X(BYD E6) capacity of the Strong Hybrids!

If you see the price point of view, you pay a premium of 3 to 4 Lakhs for a Hybrid with respect to same model ICE variant. It's only 1+ Lakh for the whole OLA scooter having 5X capacity of the above Hybrid including motor, controller, frame, body panels, interface computer and other electronic /mechanical components.

The Energy used to charge the battery comes from the momentum of the car created by burning fuel. Only thing is the energy wasted during braking is diverted to battery, which is also there in pure EVs.
A respectable Hybrid should be a Plug-in Hybrid, where there should be a considerable sized battery pack and we should be able to utilize the cheap electric power available and drive pure EV mode for most of the time and use ICE only in case of long drives.

The "Strong Hybrid" naming is just a hype being created by the Japanese manufacturers and they are cashing their market popularity in India.
If you see the future roadmap of these companies for Indian Market VS International Market, you will understand that none of the EVs find its place to Indian roadmap in the near future, whereas they have very good EV roadmap outside India! The Hybrids, they are pushing to India are actually a decade old tech in International market!
If you see, Honda Civic Hybrid with IMA tech was launched in India in 2006-2008 period (15+ years ago) and that had bigger battery pack than these new gen Strong Hybrids.

While considering CO2 emissions for ICE, there are lot of dirty hidden pollution things happening in Oil Rigs, Pumping, Refining process, Transportation etc, which gets ignored by most people.
This opensource video will throw some light with facts and figures for better understanding:

https://youtu.be/zRNpDOtkeDs

[shamanths3]

If I wanted sensational news, then i would watch the News channels and not come to TeamBhp. This place should be for helping others and not to prove who is better.

I will always suggest to people to buy whatever makes them happy. For me its the Electrics, but for my friends it has been Creta, XUV700, BMWs and Mercs.

We should never do the same mistake we did in the past ie., stick to 1 fuel type. Let everyone research and develop EVs, Flex fuels so that market is not again dependant on one single fuel type.

I feel you have been highly partial towards ICE engines and have omitted the important points that make people swing towards hybrids and EVs. Like the cost of equally packaged car. For ex: to get the same feature as Nexon EV max you have to shell out approx 14 Lakh of the ICE variant Kaziranga AMT diesel without the same refinement. Hence i would suggest to edit this article to educate people and make better points for either side so that people can read it and choose by looking at the pros and cons.

[ajayc123]

@salbin it appears that your statements are factually off. The strong hybrid runs on a different combustion cycle ( Atkinson cycle at specified rpms) to derive better fuel efficiency. The battery acts as intermediary to run the car for shorter distances at low speeds while the engine is off, and the battery is recharged by the switching on of the engine. Thus combination helps with higher efficiency besides braking regen.